Serious problems with potty training, please help!

[maggiesmommy]

Thanks so much for the help.

[rlwzgd]

Can you just keep her in the room with you, if tethering is stressful? I'm wondering why she won't go outside for you... Have you tried taking her out, then pretend like you completely ignore her? Sometimes, if you're rushing, they can pick up on your stress and not go. My guy went through a phase where he didn't want anyone watching him, so I'd turn my head away. I'd watch him out of the corner if my eye and he'd go. Whenever he went, I'd tell him good boy in a calm tone until he finished, then play with him.

 

Eta - didn't realize there was a page 2 when I posted, all of this has been discussed in detail above...

[maggiesmommy]

She finally peed outside!!! This time I took her for a full brisk walk instead of just calmly letting her sniff around... So it seems like maybe walking is better than relaxed exploration for her? I really have no idea. This dog can be so hard to predict or understand sometimes!

The way my apartment is laid out, we don't actually have any doors (just doorways) except in the bedroom and bathrooms, and my office is in a room without a door, so I can't really keep her with me without tethering her. If she makes really good progress tomorrow and I don't have to crate her for long at all, I'll keep it up with crating, but if it seems like today's pattern is going to continue, I'm going to have to force her to get used to tethering.

[Alchemist]

The ideal would be if your pup learns that *the first order of business* when she's let outside is to pee/poop. You throw a party at that point, and initiate play, give her treats. Ignore her if need be until she eliminates - walk over to the place where you're trying to encourage her to eliminate. Bring your cell phone with you and check your email, because you may be a while.

 

If, instead, you take her for a walk, and then wait until she pees/poops until you go back indoors, guess what she'll learn? That all fun ends when she pees or poops. You'll find yourself with a dog who can hold it for an amazing amount of time while being walked. What if, instead, she learns that playing (or a walk) only begins *after* she's eliminated?

 

They're not dumb, these dogs...

[urge to herd]

_{Go back and read my post. Take her out, ignore her except for walking her around. No playing, no games, etc. If she doesn't potty after 10 minutes or so, back in, into her crate. Keep it neutral, you are not punishing her, you are controlling her so that you can get her housebroken.}

 

_{When she potties, then you can initiate some play and/or give her a treat. No elimination, back inside. Eliminate and then the fun starts! Right now, it's just as Alchemist says - eliminate and she goes inside. I wouldn't want to pee either, if it ended my fun.}

 

_{She will not expire from a few days without exercise. She is confused by the constant change of expectations. Keep it simple and consistent above all. 48 hrs of consistency from you - only outside to eliminate, if she doesn't eliminate then it's back in the crate, eliminate and it's party time. She'll be getting the idea. Several days and she'll be eliminating on command. This is the technique I used with all my dogs.}

 

_{Give her mental stimulation inside. Work with her on obedience, on going to her spot and laying quietly for a minute, on touching your hand. There are a lot of things you can do with her that don't involve her going on long walks or trips to the park. Search the board for tricks or quiet games.}

 

_{It's up to you to set the conditions. Every time you take her for a long walk, trying to get her to potty, you're confusing the issue for her.}

 

_{GentleLake gave basically the same advice I've given, as have several others. Please look to your own actions.}

 

_{Ruth and Agent Gibbs}

[RichardH]

I went through the tethered hosebreaking technique with no accidents, but I went through some behavior rough spots with Nessie (9 months old at the time). Tethering tended to make her run around and be an ass: Pulling me/the leash/my chair around and playing extra hard with her toys. I got toys and food away from her and I started rewarding her for being calm and collected (a la relaxation protocol - lots of start videos on youtube) and she picked it up pretty quickly. As soon as she laid down on the floor/offered a belly rub/looked at me/sat/(anything I wanted at that point), jackpot at first and then intermittent treats after the first couple days. It's pretty easy to wean them of treats for this behavior. It's important to feed the treats really slowly so the stimulation doesn't go sky high. I would take a break from work every few hours and let her play with a Nylabone or do some tricks to keep her busy. I'd say about a month of that treatment and now she sleeps most of the time at work.

 

One other thing. Try Nature's Miracle cleaner (it's pretty cheap at the pet store) rather than the rug cleaning stuff - especially if the dog seems to be going in the same place over and over. Good chance the smell's still there and the cleaner you're using is enzymatic for smoke odor and not for pets.

 

Living in an Apartment and working in an office setting at home or across town, It's probably pretty important to get your dog feeling good about being tethered to you and only being excited when you get up or address her directly with play words. Don't worry about exercise levels - puppies don't really need it and you'll teach the dog to crave it. Go for a regular walk for a few blocks on a loose schedule and it'll be enough. NEVER feel bad for the dog when training, it'll just undermine your ability to teach and foil your attempts to stop bratty/unwanted behavior. Now to go practice what I preach, heh

 

-Rich

[GentleLake]

 

The way my apartment is laid out, we don't actually have any doors (just doorways) except in the bedroom and bathrooms, and my office is in a room without a door, so I can't really keep her with me without tethering her.

 

Ummm . . . have you never heard of baby gates? Second best invention since crates.

 

It's often easy to find used ones either free or inexpensively on Freecylce (Freecycle.org), Craigslist or yard sales.

[maggiesmommy]

Ummm . . . have you never heard of baby gates? Second best invention since crates.

 

It's often easy to find used ones either free or inexpensively on Freecylce (Freecycle.org), Craigslist or yard sales.

 

LOL, she could hop a baby gate without hesitation!

 

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

[rlwzgd]

Yeah, Goofy can climb two stacked on top of each other and escape through a little bitty space at the top. I "hate" tigger dogs... Clearly I must have put that there by mistake, not to keep him in or anything. Just last week I had him tied to a fence while we were out with the sheep and he went straight over the top, nearly strangling himself... Glad I tied him in my sight. Now he gets to stay in his crate when we were out...

[GentleLake]

 

LOL, she could hop a baby gate without hesitation!

 

 

And if she's in the same room with you, then you have a perfect opportunity to teach her that gates are to be respected.

 

ETA: I'm not saying this to be snide, but if you put half the effort you're using to make excuses into thinking of solutions, your problems might be solved a whole lot faster and with a lot less stress for both you and (more importantly) the dog.

 

All of these roadblocks that you bring up are opportunities for you to train the behaviors you want in the dog.

[urge to herd]

And if she's in the same room with you, then you have a perfect opportunity to teach her that gates are to be respected.

 

 

All of these roadblocks that you bring up are opportunities for you to train the behaviors you want in the dog.

 

This. Pick one or two behaviors, like potty training and staying off gates, and work on them consistently. It will pay off big time for you and your dog.

 

Ruth

[maggiesmommy]

ETA: I'm not saying this to be snide, but if you put half the effort you're using to make excuses into thinking of solutions, your problems might be solved a whole lot faster and with a lot less stress for both you and (more importantly) the dog.

 

I am putting a LOT of effort into housetraining her. The things I'm bringing up aren't excuses. I don't think it would be productive to introduce tons of new concepts to her at one time, especially when they'd cause unnecessary stress. Right now, she knows what a crate is, she's able to use it, and she's comfortable in it. Introducing something new, like a baby gate or indoor tethering, would just add to the stress and confusion she's feeling right now. That's not me making excuses. That's me reading my dog and trying to introduce only one or two new concepts at a time.

 

Also bear in mind that I'm getting different advice from different people, and while I know it's all good advice, I can't do what everyone recommends at the same time. Some people say every hour's good, some people say every few hours. Some people think the crate is fine and some clearly think she needs to be either tethered or in a baby-gated area (although I honestly don't see the advantage of those).

 

Anyway, I'm happy to report her third day accident-free (but, jeez, it's been hard ). We seem to have a pretty good system going right now. I wanted to thank everybody in the forums for all their help.

[Shetlander]

Some people think the crate is fine and some clearly think she needs to be either tethered or in a baby-gated area (although I honestly don't see the advantage of those).

Not going to comment on whether you should use tethers and baby gates (coyote puppy Quinn sawed through any tether I put on him and crashed the gates and gnawed on those -- but this was when he was 10 weeks old and a real wild child ), but I have found them very useful. They can be used so you don't need to crate your dog as much, as a way to keep the dog in your line of sight -- something that is very important for things like housetraining and chewing issues. They're often great management tools to keep the dog from practicing behaviors you don't want. I kept my Lhasa on a tether when I couldn't keep a close eye on his movements for months since he was so difficult about marking as a youngster. I think the enforced closeness convinced him I couldn't bear to be separated from his adorable little self for a minute.

[rlwzgd]

This. Pick one or two behaviors, like potty training and staying off gates, and work on them consistently. It will pay off big time for you and your dog.

 

Ruth

 

Goofy did learn to respect gates. He was playing with the other dog and bumped a cheap one - it fell over on him and scared him - no harm done, other than a scare. Since then he's respected them and I haven't desensitized it... A stern no as she looks at the gate to jump it should correct the behavior - no stress to you (other than having to watch her for a while - which you should be doing to potty train) or her... I do believe dogs like limits and like to know them...

 

 

I am putting a LOT of effort into housetraining her. The things I'm bringing up aren't excuses. I don't think it would be productive to introduce tons of new concepts to her at one time, especially when they'd cause unnecessary stress. Right now, she knows what a crate is, she's able to use it, and she's comfortable in it. Introducing something new, like a baby gate or indoor tethering, would just add to the stress and confusion she's feeling right now. That's not me making excuses. That's me reading my dog and trying to introduce only one or two new concepts at a time.

 

Also bear in mind that I'm getting different advice from different people, and while I know it's all good advice, I can't do what everyone recommends at the same time. Some people say every hour's good, some people say every few hours. Some people think the crate is fine and some clearly think she needs to be either tethered or in a baby-gated area (although I honestly don't see the advantage of those).

 

Anyway, I'm happy to report her third day accident-free (but, jeez, it's been hard ). We seem to have a pretty good system going right now. I wanted to thank everybody in the forums for all their help.

 

Ok, now I'm confused! Maybe I am crossing threads in my head since you've been posting a lot lately, but I think you said you were feeling bad that she was spending so much time in her crate, so the good people here suggested a way to alleviate your feelings. Teaching a dog two things at once is not difficult or stressful for the dog - unless they are two conflicting things bred from inconsistency - like pee inside, pee outside, etc... Obedience classes regularly teach a dog to sit, down and walk on a leash within the course of an hour, from what I can remember... The dogs leaving there never seem very stressed about it. Setting expectations is never a bad thing.

 

Watch her and you'll know when she has to go. For example, Gret can't seem to figure out to poop outside. I left her yesterday without insisting it goes outside (my bad). She pooped inside at 2:30 ish. Now I know her preferred poop time is 2:30... Guess where she'll be at 2:30 today... My pup gets anxious every 30 minutes in the morning and evening for two hours, during the day he can go for 5 or 6 before he cares. But frankly, I don't pee on a consistent schedule all day, either... And neither does my baby, or anyone else I know. So what I'm saying is that she might not have to go on a consistent schedule, but if you watch her cues, you will know when she has to pee/poo, etc...

[Shetlander]

Goofy did learn to respect gates. He was playing with the other dog and bumped a cheap one - it fell over on him and scared him - no harm done, other than a scare. Since then he's respected them and I haven't desensitized it... A stern no as she looks at the gate to jump it should correct the behavior - no stress to you (other than having to watch her for a while - which you should be doing to potty train) or her... I do believe dogs like limits and like to know them...

Good point. Quinn did eventually learn to respect gates (and tables and kitchen countertops) when he matured out of his wild puppy, attention of a stobe light, phase. It took a bit of work and I had to be consistent in not letting him self-reward, but he eventually did learn to accept that a gate means "You stay on this side."

[maggiesmommy]

Goofy did learn to respect gates. He was playing with the other dog and bumped a cheap one - it fell over on him and scared him - no harm done, other than a scare. Since then he's respected them and I haven't desensitized it... A stern no as she looks at the gate to jump it should correct the behavior - no stress to you (other than having to watch her for a while - which you should be doing to potty train) or her... I do believe dogs like limits and like to know them...

 

 

Ok, now I'm confused! Maybe I am crossing threads in my head since you've been posting a lot lately, but I think you said you were feeling bad that she was spending so much time in her crate, so the good people here suggested a way to alleviate your feelings. Teaching a dog two things at once is not difficult or stressful for the dog - unless they are two conflicting things bred from inconsistency - like pee inside, pee outside, etc... Obedience classes regularly teach a dog to sit, down and walk on a leash within the course of an hour, from what I can remember... The dogs leaving there never seem very stressed about it. Setting expectations is never a bad thing.

 

Watch her and you'll know when she has to go. For example, Gret can't seem to figure out to poop outside. I left her yesterday without insisting it goes outside (my bad). She pooped inside at 2:30 ish. Now I know her preferred poop time is 2:30... Guess where she'll be at 2:30 today... My pup gets anxious every 30 minutes in the morning and evening for two hours, during the day he can go for 5 or 6 before he cares. But frankly, I don't pee on a consistent schedule all day, either... And neither does my baby, or anyone else I know. So what I'm saying is that she might not have to go on a consistent schedule, but if you watch her cues, you will know when she has to pee/poo, etc...

 

 

Thanks. I had posted saying I felt bad about the crate but I was asking for reassurance that it wasn't cruel as long as she was getting interaction and exercise when she's not crated. She's needing the crate less and less, but if I need to get a baby gate and add that to our potty-training ritual, I will. (I didn't see one on Freecycle and when I went to the pet store yesterday they had them for 79 dollars, jeez!) So I'll get one if I have to, but the system we have now is working out okay. I just wanted somebody to reassure me that it wasn't horrible to crate-train her for now. I guess I was miscommunicating what I needed, because people offered suggestions for alternatives to crating and I really just wanted somebody to reassure me that it was okay and that she'd be fine.

 

Maggie's biggest problem right now seems to be her evening poop. I think I've figured out her body's schedule...

 

-Peeing and pooping first thing in the morning, outside.

-No peeing or pooping, inside or outside, until at least 3 pm-- this is her safe period to be in the house without crating or direct supervision.

-A 3-4 pm pee, which usually happens outside if she's taken out between 3 and 4.

-Absolute refusal to pee or poop, even if we spend the whole day outside, from 4-7 pm.

-Peeing some time betweeen 7 and 9 pm. (If she's not outdoors, crated, or taken out hourly during this period, she pees indoors.)

-Pooping inside at 10 pm. This is the one thing that we're having the most trouble with. She will NOT poop outside at night no matter how much time we spend outside at night. There have been times I've taken her out for loooong walks from 7-11 pm and she hasn't pooped, but she does it if she's inside at night.

 

For the last few days, I've been very, very strict about crating or directly supervising her in the evenings so she doesn't get to have her evening poop on the floor, which was the biggest problem, so she holds it and then ends up pooping a huge amount in the morning. I think a few more days of this might convince her that it's worth it to poop outside at night.

[GentleLake]

 

I am putting a LOT of effort into housetraining her. The things I'm bringing up aren't excuses. I don't think it would be productive to introduce tons of new concepts to her at one time, especially when they'd cause unnecessary stress. Right now, she knows what a crate is, she's able to use it, and she's comfortable in it. Introducing something new, like a baby gate or indoor tethering, would just add to the stress and confusion she's feeling right now. That's not me making excuses. That's me reading my dog and trying to introduce only one or two new concepts at a time.

 

 

But you're the one who was in a panic the other day worried that she was spending too much time in the crate! People try to offer alternatives, and you come back saying you can't do that because of this, that and the other without being willing to recognize that all of these new skills require training and reinforcement, too. Sorry, but that sounds like making excuses to me.

 

Your dog can most certainly learn a number of new behaviors at the same time. Dogs are doing it every day in basic manners classes, agility classes, learning to herd livestock -- where the things it needs to learn change as quickly as the sheep react! -- all over the world. Your dog is no less capable of learning more than one thing at a time.

 

And it doesn't have to be stressful for her unless you make it so. Sure you have to work w/in her tolerance levels, but you do it slowly, calmly and consistently. Every dog I've ever gotten (and everyone else for that matter), whether as a wee pup or an adult came into my home having to learn a whole new set of rules to live by. I didn't just work on house training to the exclusion of other necessary skills, like learning that counter surfing and chewing shoes is off limits, learning to walk on a leash, etc., etc., etc. Things get taught as the need arises, which is all the time at first.

 

I'm sure you're putting a lot of effort into house training your dog. But I think you need to step back a moment and ask yourself about the quality of that effort. If your reactions and your efforts are frantic and anxious, that's going to both inhibit your efforts and also spill over onto the dog, who is very sensitive to your emotions and moods.

 

You can do this, and your dog can do this -- and by "this" I really mean "these things." You're both capable of working on a couple, three issues at the same time. And, in fact, you want to work on several issues simultaneously, because if you don't, these other undesirable behaviors are just going to become more deeply ingrained in her behavioral repertoire and be harder to deal with later on. But you need to be relaxed and patient about it.

 

<sigh> But I've said that before, as have several others here. I'm done now. Reread the older recommendations. It's all there.

[rlwzgd]

 

 

Thanks. I had posted saying I felt bad about the crate but I was asking for reassurance that it wasn't cruel as long as she was getting interaction and exercise when she's not crated. She's needing the crate less and less, but if I need to get a baby gate and add that to our potty-training ritual, I will. (I didn't see one on Freecycle and when I went to the pet store yesterday they had them for 79 dollars, jeez!) So I'll get one if I have to, but the system we have now is working out okay. I just wanted somebody to reassure me that it wasn't horrible to crate-train her for now. I guess I was miscommunicating what I needed, because people offered suggestions for alternatives to crating and I really just wanted somebody to reassure me that it was okay and that she'd be fine.

 

 

She'll be fine... Gret loves hanging out in her crate - the door is open, but when she's tired of the action, she just goes in there to sleep. Seriously, I swear she spends hours a day in there, she looks as if I'm putting her out when I ask her to come out. Then it's just a, fine, since you insist to pet me, I'll allow it... When she's reset, she's out and looking to play again. Your situation is temporary.

 

Try Wally World or Target in the baby section - I think they are $10, maybe $15 in store? This is what we use: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Evenflo-Position-and-Lock-Wood-Safety-Gate-Blue/20441353

which you can order from amazon or about a million other places. I have a zillion to contain kids, dogs, control the general movement about the house. Just the cheap pine frame and plastic netting that mount with pressure will do... Don't put too much pressure, I'm guilty of just a little tighter - snap... So they do work just fine in 2 pieces, too... For small doors.

[maggiesmommy]

But you're the one who was in a panic the other day worried that she was speding too much time in the crate! People try to offer alternatives, and you come back saying you can't do that because of this, that and the other without being willing to recognize that all of these new skills require training and reinforcement, too. Sorry, but that sounds like making excuses to me.

 

 

I'm sorry. I appreciated everyone's help and I'm sorry I seemed rude or dismissive. I didn't communicate very well and I really just wanted somebody to tell me, "She's fine in her crate; don't worry about it." But I should have just told myself that instead of asking other people to reassure me.

 

Your dog can most certainly learn a number of new behaviors at the same time. Dogs are doing it every day in basic manners classes, agility classes, learning to herd livestock -- where the things it needs to learn change as quickly as the sheep react! -- all over the world. Your dog is no less capable of learning more than one thing at a time.

 

She's also just recently started in agility and is learning a lot of other rules. But no more excuses. I understand that she'd "get" tethering or baby gates soon enough, and I'll go ahead and get a baby gate today because it would be useful to have even after she's fully house trained.

 

And it doesn't have to be stressful for her unless you make it so. Sure you have to work w/in her tolerance levels, but you do it slowly, calmly and consistently. Every dog I've ever gotten (and everyone else for that matter), whether as a wee pup or an adult came into my home having to learn a whole new set of rules to live by. I didn't just work on house training to the exclusion of other necessary skills, like learning that counter surfing and chewing shoes is off limits, learning to walk on a leash, etc., etc., etc. Things get taught as the need arises, which is all the time at first.

 

I'm sure you're putting a lot of effort into house training your dog. But I think you need to step back a moment and ask yourself about the quality of that effort. If your reactions and your efforts are frantic and anxious, that's going to both inhibit your efforts and also spill over onto the dog, who is very sensitive to your emotions and moods.

 

I understand.

 

You can do this, and your dog can do this -- and by "this" I really mean "these things." You're both capable of working on a couple, three issues at the same time. And, in fact, you want to work on several issues simultaneously, becasue if you don't, these other undesirable behaviors are just going to become more deeply engrained in her behavioral repertoire and be harder to deal with later on. But you need to be relaxed and patient about it.

 

<sigh> But I've said that before, as have several others here. I'm done now. Reread the older recommendations. It's all there.

 

Thank you. I'm sorry I seem to have upset you.

 

 

She'll be fine... Gret loves hanging out in her crate - the door is open, but when she's tired of the action, she just goes in there to sleep. Seriously, I swear she spends hours a day in there, she looks as if I'm putting her out when I ask her to come out. Then it's just a, fine, since you insist to pet me, I'll allow it... When she's reset, she's out and looking to play again. Your situation is temporary.

 

Thanks. She doesn't like her crate but she doesn't hate it, either. I just didn't want to introduce something she clearly hated only a few weeks after she really started to get used to the crate.

 

Try Wally World or Target in the baby section - I think they are $10, maybe $15 in store? This is what we use: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Evenflo-Position-and-Lock-Wood-Safety-Gate-Blue/20441353

which you can order from amazon or about a million other places. I have a zillion to contain kids, dogs, control the general movement about the house. Just the cheap pine frame and plastic netting that mount with pressure will do... Don't put too much pressure, I'm guilty of just a little tighter - snap... So they do work just fine in 2 pieces, too... For small doors.

 

Awesome. I've actually got to go to Walmart later today and if I can find one for less than $20, I'll definitely get one.

 

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[Shetlander]

She's also just recently started in agility and is learning a lot of other rules. But no more excuses. I understand that she'd "get" tethering or baby gates soon enough, and I'll go ahead and get a baby gate today because it would be useful to have even after she's fully house trained.

 

Sometimes, we need to figure out what is most important to us and concentrate on those things for the time being. Sort of a pick your battles approach. Work on a few behaviors that are the most crucial (which obviously includes the potty issues) and when you feel like you have those under better control, you can add in other behaviors you want to work on, probabably sooner than you thought you would. The neat thing about dogs in general and Border Collies in particular is they love doing things and they love interacting with their people. So the agility, unless she has confidence or fear issues, is probably like PE for an athletically minded kid. A huge reward/play time. And learning things like house rules can also be rewarding for the dog, especially when done in a positve and fun manner. Plus dogs like being right and mine always appreciate being admired when they are being good.

 

Good luck. I'm sure you'll get there!

[maggiesmommy]

Thanks, Shetlander! Having you guys to turn to for help has been so tremendously helpful... I really can't even begin to thank you guys enough. You're the first people I've encountered who seem to understand my dog's brain. Everyone else thinks she's being willfully defiant or that I should just give her away, and you guys have helped me find real solutions. Really-- thanks SO much.

[Shetlander]

Everyone else thinks she's being willfully defiant or that I should just give her away, and you guys have helped me find real solutions.

 

The average person out there knows very little about training dogs effectively and even less about training highly intelligent, senstive (and maybe a little controlling ) Border Collies. This is probably why people seem astonished that I can easily get all three of my dogs to pose together, looking directly at the camera. They are way more impressed by that simple feat than by anything I've done with a dog in the obedience or agility ring,

[rlwzgd]

I don't know - I'm more impressed by the completely cute picture in your sig... Maybe my dog could write my dissertation for me...

[Shetlander]

I don't know - I'm more impressed by the completely cute picture in your sig... Maybe my dog could write my dissertation for me...

 

LOL, I just this second changed my signature picture, so I wasn't slighting the other dogs. Quinn is helpful, but even he can't type. Maybe if the breeder hadn't removed his dew claws.

[rlwzgd]

HA! Well if he ever masters it, could I borrow him?