Told off at Obedience

[Shazmnldb]

Awesome feedback everyone, thanks so much. I think I will tell my trainer to "go jump" next week. I will train my BC the way I want to. I am absolutely sure that she does understand everything I say to her (even short sentences) she is not stupid. I get that they are not "fluent' in English but they do get it?

 

We will just have to show our trainer how clever she is

[Beach BCs]

I think I will tell my trainer to "go jump" next week. I will train my BC the way I want to.

EXCELLENT IDEA!

[Sue R]

Remember that even if you use a sentence, the dog may be picking out particular words. "Bed" might be just as effective as "Go to bed" but I find that with my dogs, sometimes short sentances and phrases do get a better response - maybe because key words for us like "go" and "now" are added, and provide emphasis.

 

Then there are the dogs (as one or two have mentioned) who can respond appropriately to a sentence like, "Get your blue ball." They do multiple steps in response - they go and look for the toy; they discriminate between toys to pick the right toy; and they return and bring the toy to you. Now how would your instructor view that sort of response to a sentence?

 

There are foundation ideas to follow in training but nothing much is written in stone. You do what works for you and your dog within the limits of reason. Enjoy!

[Smalahundur]

Anyhow, yesterday at training I got yelled at because it told my 6 month old BC female the following:

 

"Lilli Sit" - well, did the trainer go off at me. She said "YOU ARE USING A SENTENCE, YOU NEED TO USE A SINGLE WORD, DOGS DO NOT UNDERSTAND SENTENCES"

Well my question would be did Lilli sit?

If so then miraculously she UNDERSTOOD THE SENTENCE (Is your trainer as loud as your caps lock suggests?).

[Jumpin Boots]

We definately use multi word cues/phrases with our dogs and they all seem to know what is being communicated, and if you say their name in front of a phrase the other dogs all ignore.

 

Just a thought though, does you trainer by chance teach or compete herself in agility? If so it could be that she is trying to keep you from creating the habit of always using your dogs name prior to a cue. You see many beginner people in agility do this, which delays the delivery of the actual cue, thus often creating poor timing for their dogs.

[JohnLloydJones]

I am yet another who uses short phrases and sentences and yes, the dogs manage to figure it out. I have no idea how they do it. They may not even understand separate "words" like we do. I do know that intonation matters a great deal; I have a habit of using the dogs name (all by itself) as commands; maybe 8 - 10 variants, differing by only the stress and intonation. [ I caused some amusement to a lady who adopted one of my foster boys. When she asked what commands he understood, I listed out all the variants of his name and the tone I would use. ]

[Lewie'sMom]

Yes, I use full sentences, and yes, I believe dogs (in general) understand. They probably don't understand the way we do, but they certainly pick up on key words and intonation.

 

When I was a teen, my mother would tell my miniature poodle to "Go wake up Patty". That little darling would bound down the hallway, throw himself against my (ajar) bedroom door, and dance around my room until I got up.

 

Yes, they certainly understand.

 

And, I know you didn't ask, but...you need to find another trainer.

my two cents

[urge to herd]

DH says, "Border collies are smarter than the average pet owner." Perhaps we need to add, "and some dog trainers, as well."

 

All my dogs have understood phrases, looks, gestures, going back to child hood. I don't know how it is that they process the information, but they get it. Gibbs gets 'you don't get to come' when it's not a car ride he can join me on, and he lays down with a heavy sigh. When I tell him 'lay down' he simply complies, with no sigh.

 

Watched 'Dogs Decoded', a Nova program recommended by someone on the boards. We humans have a great deal of work to do in adjusting our beliefs around canine intelligence.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms Shazmldb writes: "I think I will tell my trainer to "go jump" next week. I will train my BC the way I want to."

 

If you're dissatisfied with a trainer, find another. But because you and listers (who have never met you, seen your dog nor were present for the training incident) know that Border Collies can understand complex commands doesn't make you someone who can train a Border Collie without a mentor.

 

Professional pet dog trainers - good and bad - do their best to train students who can't read a dog, have no notion what dogs want and probably believe a lot of silly ideas about dogs. The dogs range from timid to dangerous, biddable to nearly untrainable.

 

That's why most trainers use KISS. Mantras include "Never hold the leash so you can be towed into traffic" "One command, never repeated", "The dog's name is not a command" and "one word command". If you've ever heard a pet owner saying "Does Princess want to tinkle now? Will she please Mama?": that's why.

 

When you go to a trainer, you pay your money because he or she may know something you don't about basic dog training or how to solve a particular problem. What doesn't fit your understanding you ignore. If you really object to what the trainer suggests (Many on this list object to choke, prong and ecollars - I object to treat bags) go elsewhere.

 

Arguing is one of the things we humans do that occupies time better spent training dogs.

 

Donald McCaig

[nancy]

Fergie knew, "That's not your squirrel." It meant that the squirrel was in someone else's yard, and not hers to chase. Haven't gotten there with Dixie. But she's getting, "Oh, look at the duckies; such nice duckies; bye-bye duckies." Much nicer than NO!!!

[terrecar]

I took my Whippet (many years ago) to an obedience class where the "down" command was introduced. The trainer started to pinch my very leggy, narrow chested dog between the withers to push him down--that was her method. Of course my timid and rather sensitive dog flinched, so I reacted quickly. I backed my dog away from the trainer and told her we would work on it. Thankfully, she got the hint. I made damned sure the dog had a reliable down by the next class--no force or pinching necessary--so the trainer left him alone and we were able to finish the class unmolested.

 

I mostly take my dogs to obedience classes for the exposure to other dogs and people, and for a structured format within which to practice (I'm talking basic obedience here, not behavior issues). Sometimes I pick up helpful tips I would never have thought of myself, and other times the trainer does something I think is incredibly stupid. Sometimes the helpful tips and the incredibly stupid both come from the same trainer. As long as my dog is not adversely affected, I don't have a problem finishing out with a trainer with whom I may have some points of disagreement. If my dog is adversely affected, I'm out. The latter did happen once when a trainer's dog went after my puppy.

 

Having said that, if a trainer's personality continually grated on my nerves, I might look for another class if I didn't feel I could let it roll off my back.

 

ETA: My dogs know multiple-word commands. I think there is a difference between idle chatter that confuses a dog and consistent multiple-word commands.

[Tea]

My dogs understand this sentence-

 

"G** D** IT GET OUTTA THAT! YOU SOAB!!!!"

 

Hum....or do they.....?

[Root Beer]

Obedience trainers really do know how to make you feel like silly don't they?

 

Anyhow, yesterday at training I got yelled at because it told my 6 month old BC female the following:

 

"Lilli Sit" - well, did the trainer go off at me. She said "YOU ARE USING A SENTENCE, YOU NEED TO USE A SINGLE WORD, DOGS DO NOT UNDERSTAND SENTENCES"

 

I was a little bit embarrassed so I thought I would ask you guys, the question that when you want your dog to do something/anything, do you use a single command word? I am in the habit (possibly bad one) of talking to my dog and giving commands in very short two, three word sentences.

 

Just thought I would get your thoughts.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I haven't read any of the responses, so my response is directly to your original question!

 

I often say my dog's name before giving a cue. Not always, of course, but sometimes. I've found that my dogs are plenty savvy enough to be able to handle that.

 

What drives me nuts is when someone comes up to my dog and asks the dog "can you siiiit?" I actually train that as a cue now because enough people do it that it's handy. So, I can say "sit", "Name, sit", or "can you siiiit?" and my dogs will sit on those cues.

 

My husband also uses "sit" when he asks Speedy to drop a frisbee. I am really not sure why he does that, but Speedy understands that when he says "sit" in that context, it means "drop the frisbee" and not "sit".

 

And yes, I talk to my dogs in sentences. I know for a fact that Dean, at least, understands certain full sentences! All of them know a lot of phrases, but Dean definitely understands some full sentences.

 

These dogs are smarter than they often get credit for!!

[Root Beer]

ETA: My dogs know multiple-word commands. I think there is a difference between idle chatter that confuses a dog and consistent multiple-word commands.

 

Hahahahah - this is one way that I mess with my dogs a bit. I'll deliberately ask Dean questions that he doesn't understand like, "do you want your watermelon?" or "where's Kristine?" (my dogs know each others names and my husband's name and even a very close family friend's name, but not mine!!) just to see him cock his head slightly with a questioning look in his eyes!! I'll always follow it up with something he knows like "get your ball!", but I do like to mess with his head just a little!!

[Root Beer]

Awesome feedback everyone, thanks so much. I think I will tell my trainer to "go jump" next week. I will train my BC the way I want to. I am absolutely sure that she does understand everything I say to her (even short sentences) she is not stupid. I get that they are not "fluent' in English but they do get it?

 

We will just have to show our trainer how clever she is

 

In all seriousness, you might want to have a talk with your trainer and explain your plans ahead of time. I often do that when I am going to deviate from what the class is going to be doing (which is a lot in basic classes!!), and I have always found that when I explain what I want to do, and why, most trainers are fine with it.

[arf2184]

Wonder what your trainer would say if when you dog did it correctly you told her Thank You. I catch myself telling mine that a lot when I ask her to do something and she does. Oh well.

Me too. They know more or less what I mean too. For them 'Thank you' has basically the same meaning as 'Yes' or a click, only (without thinking about it) I use it for everyday things they aren't getting treated for (like Sit, Wait, Lie Down, or Get Back).

 

I try not to use the dogs name when teaching a new command because if I'm teaching, the dog is already focused on me (if not, gain focus first, then teach). A name is a way of getting the subjects attention or indicating that you are addressing the owner of that name (be it human, dog, horse, cat, etc). In my experience, people who use their dogs name excessively tend to end up with a dog who chooses to ignore the owner just as often as they listen.

[geonni banner]

"Thank you" always gets a wag from my dog. And if I inadvertently hurt her of scare her, "I'm sorry!" makes it all better. And she knows what "be polite" means - slow down and be quiet/ gentle.

[Petes Mom]

I always say the dog's name before asking them anything, except when I am working Pete on sheep, then it's just "lie down" or "come bye" or "right there." He is the only one (of my 3 dogs) working there, and he knows that I am working with him, so I do not have to say his name.

 

However, when I am doing anything else, Rally training with Jack, or just training at home with Annie because she enjoys it, I always say their name before asking for a cue. If I just said "Sit!" to Jack without saying his name first, he would not do it, and he would look at me like "Are you talking to me?" Jack can be highly distracted by all the other dogs and people and noise going on anywhere, so I have to get his attention first; "Jack," (he looks at me) "Sit!" and he does it. I get very irritated with trainers who insist that we all conform to their ideal, and treat every dog or horse or dolphin the same way as they think we should. It doesn't work that way in the real world.

I remember seeing the famous Cattledog, Skidboot and his trainer, David Hartwig. David used very long sentences when talking to Skidboot, and those two had the most amazing bond. He even kidded around during their performance about a well-known trainer telling him that he should use one word cues when training Skidboot. The communication between the two of them was like a lengthy conversation. It was quite something to see.

I say, do what works for you. If you say your dog's name before a cue, so be it. If the obedience trainers (and judges) don't like it, that's their problem. I say, tell them to get over it.

[Sue R]

I often use "thank you" just like a would with a person. And I use "sorry" when I've made a mistake with a dog. If they don't know the word, they understand the inflection.

 

A famous sheepdog handler once said something along the lines of, "Of course, you can speak to your dog. But make sure you speak sense!" Sounds good to me, even though I do speak nonsense to my dogs sometimes, but they know that's just in fun.

[bcnewe2]

I had to add for stock work using my dogs name is a look in or come in command. If she is going to wide and I say dew, she will turn her head in and tighten up. Or if I'm giving an inside flank way out I will say her name and shell turn in easier. Or wanting her to come back "that'll do Dew" gets her pointed at me so she returns quicker. So I consider names to be commands that cue them to turn towards me.

[geonni banner]

 

Dear Doggers,

 

That's why most trainers use KISS.

If you've ever heard a pet owner saying "Does Princess want to tinkle now? Will she please Mama?"

 

What's "KISS"?

 

If I have I've managed to blot it from my memory... eeeeeeeeeee-YUK!

[TEC]

Bet you never had a border collie like Wha-chiss. All a person has to do is ask a few friends over, and call Wha-chiss from digging in the back yard.

 

"OK, Wha-chiss" -- that's how you get his attention. "Sweep the deck" and he sweeps it. "Change the sprinkler", and he drags it to a dry spot. "Thank you"

 

"Wha-chiss" -- "Grill the steaks to medium rare", and he does them perfectly, but doesn't take a bite. "Mix everybody a Gin and Tonic, with a twist of lime", and he does it. Don't forget the thank you.

 

"Change the plugs on the blue pickup" . He's still working on that...doesn't gap them right sometimes.

 

"Please, empty the dishwasher and put them away". You have to say please for that one, or he will just walk away. There's just never been a dog like him.

 

And there may never be a dog like Wha-chiss. But it's fun to think about.

 

He would hire his own agent, and demand too much. -- TEC

[terrecar]

I am assuming Mr. McCaig is referring to the acronym KISS that stands for "keep it simple, stupid".

[DeltaBluez Tess]

We took a Obedience class with Shiro....she was about 5 or so months....she was a spitfire and had to be busy. She didn't like the teacher when she tried to make her sit, who did an ear pinch on her.....Shiro lifted her lip at the teacher and we told her that we would correct her. The teacher was all about ear pinches. Once day she gave a demo with her dogs and they didn't listen very well so she went over to correct one and it ran off... Getty and I looked at each other in dismay.....so a few classes later the teacher announced to the class that Shiro was stupid and couldn't learn anything.....Shiro had made up her mind she wasn't going to listen to the teacher at all....anyways the last day of the class we all to show a trick with our dog. Getty took offense that his beloved dog was called stupid so he spent tons of hours teaching her to jump thru his arms, back and forth and he would move his circled arms all over and she would jump thru it.

 

So last day the teacher walked around the room and most of the tricks were just recalls or roll over.....she walked over to us and Shiro was bouncing on the end of her leash, not doing a down at all...I swear the teacher sneered at us and then asked loudly to the class...."so what trick does 'Shiro' know"

 

Getty got up and had her jumping thru his arms while he walked back and forth, moving his arms up and down and she nailed it all......then he said "not bad to a stupid dog"....oh he got the prize for the best trick.....

 

oddly enough we didn't get invited to her second class.....probably due to the fact a few people snickered when Getty said that remark......Shiro was a handful the first year of her life, always getting into stuff, high drive, the horrors you hear about Border Collies....well, that was Shiro.....we told ourselves one night when she decided to be a brat that if we couldn't raise a dog, then we couldn't raise a kid......Shiro turned out to be a wonderful dog but the first two years were the worse two years ever in our lives.......BUT any Border Collie after Shiro is a piece of cake.....

 

Getty taught Shiro to a top Frisbee dog that did awesome moves/dances and jumps.....I used her to meet/greet people and some herding......she was all heart, not talented in the herding dept, but a devoted dog that was our ring bearer.

[Gideon's girl]

Way back all those years ago when I first started training dogs, they taught that using the dogs name was for when you wanted to increase their energy and motion. You didn't use the name for down, but if you wanted your dog to go from a down to a sit then you use their name. I still find instances and individual dogs where that is a good working concept, but like everything in dog training, it isn't alway black and white, this way or that way.

 

My dogs know that "Down" means drop where you are, now. "Lie down" means drop where you are, but you have time to get comfy. And "Go lie down" means find a spot and maybe a toy too, and make yourself at home.