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Peeing on himself is getting old...fast.


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I have my 5 mo old bc pup he is an awesome dog 95% of the time. The thing is he does not like to be scolded when he does something wrong and goes into 100% fear mode instead of just knocking it off and cooling off. The word "no" "down"(if he jumps up), hey!(when outside and I want his attention). I understand he is still a little guy but I am forced to give him a bath every time because he tends to lay down..roll over and pee himself. I have to give him a bath if not he smells like stale urine which his is very strong smelling(like if you had taken a lot of multi vitamins). I understand they are sensitive and he is a puppy but I will not, not tell him no or inform him something is wrong. I have explained in another thread how when I got him he was very fearful to begin with at 3 1/2 mo old. I've been rewarding him for the good stuff and he goes into his crate easy etc. The bath time is getting frustrating too because he will snarl really bad which I do not tolerate. I love this little guy but his fear is totally ruining him and my attitude towards him when I've been rewarding him, wearing him out with walks etc. I've been nipped myself hard for putting his leash on out of no where one day which also is a major problem. If he bites my wife like he bit me he will be gone. So any advice helps.

 

 

*the reasons why bathtime is a problem is because of the over washing him mainly but also the aggressiveness.*

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No help right away but where did you get him? Reputable breeder? That behavior isn't normalf for a youngster. Its a bit early for a fear period but...is your correction to strong for him? Is that in itself scary to him? Submissive peeing isn't uncommon but the growls for bathing are. Is he growling out of fear or aggression? Can you turn the bath to a positive? Let him play in the hose etc..

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I feel like it's both(the growling). But the peeing on himself is what gets him a harsher tone of voice vs a nice voice. Do I use a penny can instead? The breeder is known on here but I don't want to bring the name into this. I want to work this out with this dog but when I started to look into this breed. I was looking for a smart/loyal dog and I have a semi-listener/scared/sometimes aggressive dog. I'm not being hard on him as I'm being stern just like I was with my other puppies as a kid and they shaped up and listened. If scared by the tone of voice(not yelling or crazy voice) they did what they were told not pee them self and submit. It's like a catch 22 with this dog because I can't let the behavior go on but I also can't be washing him once every week and dealing with aggression.

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Well, as a kid I'm sure your tone wasn't what it is now. Seriously, I've *never* known a pup you could tell *quit peeing on yourself*...nope doesn't work. Have you just tried to let it go? Ignore it, hose him off and don't make such a big deal of it? Its not like he's attacking and killing things, peeing on himself will diminish with age. Heck, wait till he starts to *learn* to hike...talk about peeing on himself the aim is spot on - on the front legs!

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He does that too...but literally just curls his tail up and lays over and pees on the lower side of his body. I'd love to ignore it but he will literally do this right after I take him out for a walk and he pee's multiple times. It's like he saves up ammo on purpose. Lately he has been getting extra benefits like sleeping on his bigger bed upstairs and having the full room of his crate downstairs while hanging out. But it's divided with the divider right now so it's big enough for him to lay down etc that's it. I guess he will be ignored when he does it but he's going to lose subliminal bonus's.

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This doesn't fix the behavior but will he swim in a kiddie pool? Just thinking rather than a bath, let him splash in the pool and rinse himself off.

 

My youngest is fearful/shy. Someone tried to pet her at the vet's the other day while I was holding her (after being told to leave her be) and she peed all over me. She was scared and couldn't help it. I went and got a wet paper towel and cleaned up what hit the floor. Used some puppy wipes on her. And we were on our way. Was it annoying? Yep. But reacting negatively to her fear would have only made it worse. (Now, the woman who tried to pet her got an earful.)

 

"no use crying over spilled milk" my mom used to say.

 

As soon as you see him start to tip over, walk away. Take the pressure off him.

 

I wish you luck and patience with your pup. You sound so very frustrated. :(

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Understand one thing. Peeing himself is NOT a voluntary behavior. He's not doing it because he wants to. He's not doing it to defy you. He's doing it because he can't help himself.


If you are scolding or correcting him for submissive peeing, you are basically telling him that being submissive is not good enough for you. Therefore he can only think that he has to be even more submissive. And that's impossible, because going onto his back, presenting his belly and peeing himself is the most submissive posture possible.


WHY is he being overly submissive? WHY is he being fearful? You need to understand the reasons behind his behavior, or you'll get nowhere at all. Otherwise, it's like spanking a child for being afraid of the dark. Spanking doesn't remove the fear, it only makes the fear more fearful. The pup cannot help it. You need to know that.

You can't order or command submissive behavior away, no matter how much you want it gone. You can only learn its source and work to aleve and calm his fearfulness. Until the cause of his fearfulness and over-submissiveness is gone, he. cannot. help. himself.

Respectfully,

Gloria

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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that this is your first Border Collie. What did you have before? Labradors? A Rottweiler?

 

Border Collies are smart. Yes. But also SENSITIVE. Especially puppies.

 

OK. Imagine that one day you are taken to a place where the people are 12 feet tall and they do things that give you the feeling they're annoyed with you. They move fast and aggressively, and sometimes their voices get very hard and they get up in your face. But they don't speak English, so you aren't sure what they are on about.

 

The thing you don't know is that dilating eyes is a big no-no for them. It makes them distrust you and pisses them off. Everything will be going well, and then suddenly they make a fast move, or their voice gets loud. They loom over you.

 

You're as tough as the next guy, but these suckers are BIG. They are powerful and can easily outmaneuver you. So when they start giving you the eye, or get excited and loom over you, your eyes dilate. It's a normal response to stress. You aren't even aware of it. But they see something they clearly don't like. Then they grab you and hose you down with cold water. You can tell that they're mad. You can't decide whether to freeze or fight back. The more this happens the more rattled you get. You know something is making them uptight - but you aren't doing anything to intentionally get them mad.

 

Days go by. Weeks. And it's getting worse. Now every time they look at you you get worried. And your pupils dilate. And they get angry. You start feeling like you're in real danger. Sometimes you show some fight. That only makes it worse... So the nightmare goes on.

 

Lighten up!

 

This is a normal puppy. He is afraid of you. Pissing all over himself is an instinctive response, like blinking or dilating eyes. He is desperately trying to signal that he is not a threat, that you are the boss. But it isn't working - you are still mad. Does he need to defend himself? What does that get him?

 

Maybe you can turn this around. Maybe not. But unless you back off, things are bound to get worse. If you are not willing to listen to what this pup is trying to tell you he will not get better. If you give him space, encouragement, and support, he may begin to trust you. If you can't get it up to chill with this pup. I recommend that you do the both of you a favor and return him to the breeder, or find a rescue that is willing to take him.

 

I'm sorry if all this offends you - but you don't seem to be hearing a nicely-worded version of the same thing I'm telling you. For your sake, and especially the pup's, get into a puppy class and learn how to "talk" to this pup. His future depends upon what you do or don't.

 

Good luck to the both of you.

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My advice: if you love this puppy, find him a new home. Now! Contact a reputable BC rescue near you.

 

From this post and several others you have made, it looks that you are in over your head and don't have the skillset or attitude to manage this pup. For your good and that of the pup, recognize it and find him a more suitable home. Now!

 

He is clearly terrified of you, he's so afraid he doesn't know what to do. He shows his strongest appeasement behaviour of peeing on himself and he gets punished for it.

 

You have a fearful pup, you can't punish him or scold him. You have to ignore the bad behaviour and reward good behaviour you want him to have. It would require a lot of time, patience and willingness to tolerate bad behaviour to earn his trust and it doesn't seem like you are ready to do it.

 

Snarling is a warning, not something that should be 'not tolerated', punishing him for snarling will turn the pup in a biter without warning. That has already happened, he has nipped you and you are afraid he will nip your wife and you are already considering giving him away.

 

Either drastically change your attitude and training methods, work with a competent trainer/behaviourist and commit to it 110% or... find him a new home. Now!

 

You may find the above harsh and decide to ignore it. Please don't.

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Okay, I tracked down your previous posts and I see why others are coming down a little hard on you. All I can do is echo what I already said.

You cannot punish or scold or correct a fearful, insecure pup for something he can't control.

I also think you might consider returning him to his breeder. I think he's too sensitive and "soft" a dog for you. You're a guy's guy and probably something like a lab would fit you better. Losing patience with this little one will NOT work. Send him back now, while the breeder might still take him and before you get upset and toss him in the pound.

Best of luck.

~ Gloria

P.S.

Biting you when you tried to leash him was probably a fear response. You can't be a drill sergeant for a pup like this. He can't and won't "toughen up" because you order it.

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What everyone else has said. He's afraid, he's not "saving up ammo". He's a puppy not a recruit. He's sensitive and frightened, and treating him like he's doing something "bad" on purpose is totally wrong-thinking and counterproductive. It does not sound like this is the right sort of pup/dog for your household, and I hope you can either return him to the breeder (hoping that is a responsible person who will do right by him) or get him into a reputable Border Collie rescue where he can be fostered and rehomed to a suitable situation.

 

Carolina Border Collie Rescue, Mid-Atlantic Border Collie Rescue, and Blue Ridge Border Collie Rescue all are very reputable and take in dogs and pups from your area when possible. You can Google them or someone here can give you contact information.

 

There's nothing wrong with realizing that your pup is just not in the right situation for him and for your family, and doing what's right to rectify that.

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Having had a dog that would pee in fear if my gentlest daughter even so much as looked at him (he arrived like that at 8 months) I have to agree that it sounds as if this isn't the right home for this pup.

 

He needs patience and understanding plus a lot of time, not confrontation.

 

If you can't give him that, help him find someone who can.

 

And I would go further - before getting another dog please try to understand that your relationship should be a partnership and it will flourish if you see the world from your dog's pov. Even the hardest seeming dog doesn't need to be afraid of you.

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My own dog who I got as a 4 month puppy was a very sensitive puppy, and he has grown into a very sensitive dog. The word no has to be reserved for special occasions as the use gets a very miserable dog, raised voices between spouses gets a miserable dog, thunder is scary, I have a long list of things that he does not like. BUT he is the best dog we have ever had, we have learned so much on how not to live with a border collie from our previous efforts, and also from reading and absorbing what I have learned from these boards, he is the beneficiary of all of this. He is exactly what you describe loyal and smart and in my opinion the best agility partner I could have asked for, but he is and always will be a sensitive chap.

 

When we got him, my husband was I believe like you, he believed in the power of telling a dog off, the raised voice, the smacked butt, the occasional alpha roll etc. This puppy was going to be my agility partner and trust is everything in that relationship, so after numerous sometimes heated conversations he agreed to abide my puppy raising rules. He is now a convert and regrets that he used such a heavy hand with our first border collie who was his partner and in reality best friend.

 

Just because my dog is sensitive does not mean he is not confident about 98% of life, he struts his way through people and dogs at agility trials, other dogs never try to hump him, he goes almost everywhere with us, polo games, baseball, parties, we take him to lots of things. My husband takes him to work where he is surrounded by all sorts of machinery, people, dogs, when he first experiences something new and loud he is usually unsure, we just talk to him, allow him to come close and basically be needy and then we move on.

 

Bottom line is your dog will probably always be sensitive and quirky most border collies are but with the right upbringing he will be just what you want, a loyal and smart friend, but as a breed they go "bad" very easily.

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I'm not going to advocate rehoming, yet. However I really hope the breeder steps up and helps this pup as well as straightening out the OP.

 

Expecting a *puppy* to quit peeing when told is like expecting 1 yo kid to be fully potty trained. I'm sensing some rather extreme control issues or ego here. Neither if which will help the situation.

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Just because my dog is sensitive does not mean he is not confident about 98% of life, he struts his way through people and dogs at agility trials, other dogs never try to hump him, he goes almost everywhere with us, polo games, baseball, parties, we take him to lots of things. My husband takes him to work where he is surrounded by all sorts of machinery, people, dogs, when he first experiences something new and loud he is usually unsure, we just talk to him, allow him to come close and basically be needy and then we move on.

 

Bottom line is your dog will probably always be sensitive and quirky most border collies are but with the right upbringing he will be just what you want, a loyal and smart friend, but as a breed they go "bad" very easily.

 

Ross never had a problem with all sorts of things dogs often find scary but someone along the line had messed up his sensitive nature as far as people were concerned. He was so desperate to please and so scared of doing something wrong.

 

But he turned into the easiest dog to live with and so obedient and loving.

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I think the main thing you need to take from these posts is that submissive peeing is an involuntary reflex and therefore you have to address the underlying issue, which is anxiety/fear. Your response can alleviate or exacerbate the problem--your choice. If a correction prompts the submissive peeing, perhaps you need to rethink the appropriateness, severity or timing of the correction.

 

I think it might be difficult for someone who is tough or stoic in general to understand a timid dog (or person for that matter) and relate to such on an empathetic level. I think it may be doubly hard for such a person to realize the damage they can do with inappropriate, severe or ill timed corrections. You need to ask yourself if you are willing to put aside your frustration and tap into your empathy (and please don't read that as 'coddling'). If you cannot, there is no shame at this point in admitting that this is not the dog for you.

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Please take the advice of everyone to heart. This dog sounds like a poor match for you, and if you continue working with him the way you are currently doing, you are exacerbating the situation and quite likely making him worse. If you recognize it is in his best interest to rehome him now, he will have an opportunity to find a home better suited to his needs, where he can blossom rather than continue to recoil. You can find another dog whose temperament is more suited to your personality and training style. These dogs live for 15 years or so--that is a long time to make each other miserable.

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US Air Force commanders do not interact with "recruits" and "pilots" in a manner that is likely to cause them to involuntarily urinate on themselves, to lie down and curl-up in submission, nor do they punish involuntary reactions. That's an incorrect stereotype. Same with biting. Above implications that Air Force personnel would influence a reaction of that kind in pilots and recruits is unwarranted, and a poor use of persuasive techniques.

 

I wish the best for the dog. -- TEC

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US Air Force commanders do not interact with "recruits" and "pilots" in a manner that is likely to cause them to involuntarily urinate on themselves, and/or to lie down and curl-up in submission. That's an incorrect stereotype. Same with biting. Above implications that Air Force personnel would influence a reaction of that kind in pilots and recruits is unwarranted, and a poor use of persuasive techniques. -- TEC

 

Maybe not, but service culture and expectation generally is one of instant obedience to authority as it has to be and a certain type of personality will feel more comfortable with that.

There are suggestions in the content of the OP's posts that he may be taking the same approach with the pup nand that is not appropriate.

I do doubt that the advice given would have been different if the OP had not identified his line of work.

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Your puppy is afraid of you. He is peeing because he is scared and trying to grovel at your feet.

 

You are correcting him for growling when you bath him? He is growling because he is scared, and then you scare him more if you correct him.

 

No relationship works without trust. You have lost his trust and will need to work very, very hard to get it back.

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US Air Force commanders do not interact with "recruits" and "pilots" in a manner that is likely to cause them to involuntarily urinate on themselves, to lie down and curl-up in submission, or "lose subliminal bonuses". That's an incorrect stereotype. Same with biting. Above implications that Air Force personnel would influence a reaction of that kind in pilots and recruits is unwarranted, and a poor use of persuasive techniques.

 

I wish the best for the dog. -- TEC

 

Oh, please. Do you really think anyone on this board is suggesting that Air Force personnel routinely elicit involuntary urination from their recruits?

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Alright I've read EVERYONE's post. Like I said, I do not tolerate a dog snarling..I won't. It also means I'm not giving up on this dog so rehoming or returning is not an option for me. The dog has been babied to the max with treats when acting good etc. This is my first BC but not my first dog. I have identified him being scared but for what reason? I came home today took him out etc then I got on the floor with him asked him to lay down and he put his head on me and relaxed etc. The dog is not scared of me! He seems to be scared of taking commands that's it hands down. He does not like to be told what to do. So to go on...we were fine, played ball etc. Went to take him out and told him to sit at the front door(like I always do). He got into the corner kind of as I'm putting on his leash and he peed some on the shoe mat...I did not yell or do anything to him. I just took him out and that's that. Pee'd, pooped, we come back in. Told him to sit again, this time he laid down...What did he do, pee'd himself some. This time I told him nothing other than to go to his crate and he went. Shut the door and that's that. The dog is a puppy I understand, but he's not afraid of me, he comes to me when scared of strangers and when I'm at the computer doing things he'll come up and he won't come in my lap until told so and I pet him etc. There is way more behind this than just "oh he's scared" "you're being too hard on him". The dog is taken care of VERY well, 5 different kinds of treats for rewards, good food, a bunch of toys. Comes up stairs and sleeps with us some nights etc. The only thing I said I wouldn't tolerate was him biting my wife one like he got me. I'm willing to work with him because I can control him if he gets out of hand. But I asked for alternative ways to let him know something is not ok and all I got was give the dog away, give me a break.

 

 

*Also I've seen other posts from frustrated BC pup owners through search in similar situations either aggression or fear and they got no where near the negative responses I've gotten it seems I'm a target because I refuse to tolerate snarling*

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