Kassidy Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Ok so I am anti-AKC, and I know most people on these boards are also. But, we are getting started in agility, and eventually would like to compete in trials. But it seems like AKC trials are kind of the only option. I don't mind competing in AKC trials, but I don't really want to register Chloe with AKC. Do you have to register with AKC in order to compete in their trials? If you do, does registering a border collie with them help encourage them being bred for confirmation? I want them to be bred for working ability, so I don't want to encourage confirmation breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Yes you have to register with AKC to enter their trials, you have a choice of ILPing your dog wich basically sending pictures of your dog to prove she is a border collie, or register them under the companion dog program. You are going to get mixed responses on this board, there are a number that do AKC agility and others that would not ever give them any money. Personally I have chosen not to compete in AKC agility despite their widespread availability and that everyone I know does them. I have 2 reasons, first I do not want to support the AKC for all of the reasons that this board advocates, and second I would have to neuter my boy and I don't want to do that. Agility is a profit center for AKC so your agility dollars will be going to support all of their activities. I have no idea what is available in Michigan, but I do NADAC as it is the next most available after AKC although I don't like the courses/silly rules but it is somewhat local . My first choice would be USDAA which I love but I really only get to do a couple of trials a year. AKC courses would really suit as a team, but I have made my choice and despite peer pressure I am sticking to it.... Many areas also have CPE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 You do have to register your dog but though their ILP or PAL program. You can compete in the sporting type events, no conformation. Does it encourage conformation breeding? I'm not sure about that. It's been pointed out to me on more than one occasion (politely and not so politely) that my dogs don't look like the BCs in the show ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 There are some USDAA and UKI trails in Michigan later in the year. Here are some links to schedules http://www.ukagilityinternational.com/ShowDiary.aspx http://www.usdaa.com/events.cfm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 I had contacted the AKC about this and was told that my ABCA-registered dog can possibly be registered in their "open dog program" and remain intact. This feels icky to me, but it is an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kian's Mom Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 I believe there are 3 ways to register with the AKC. Open registration which if your dog is already registered ABCA they can be registered AKC without being altered ( spayed or neutered ). The partner program is for mixed or full blooded and they have to be spayed or neutered. And the PAL/ILP which as mentioned above, is for dogs that cannot be registered for one reason or another and they have to be ( spayed or neutered). Registering with any of the 3 will allow you to do agility rally or any of the sport dog activities. AS for the conformation part I don't know as I have never and will never show conformation. I ran into the same problem with agility as far as AKC is the only one that has trials close to me. Check the web to see who offers agility trials in your area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rufftie Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Michigan is chock full of CPE trials. give it a try. more fun, less money, less guilt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamincomet Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 I'm struggling with this too. Link is ABCA registered, but if I did AKC register him it would be through their PAL program, he's already neutered too though so that's not an issue. I want to start rally with him, but it's really hard to find non-AKC rally in my area. Agility seems to be easier, so I'll probably go the non-AKC agility route when we're ready. I think this is a really personal decision, and IMO no one should be given grief for participating in non-conformation AKC events with their dog if that's all that's available. I'd rather have people be active and having fun with their dogs than have them be scared to try because some people would stick up their noses at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Just out of curiosity, what is the reason behind those compulsary neuter/spay rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 They don't want dogs without AKC full registration and who compete in AKC sanctioned events to propagate Which I suppose is ironic since they oppose mandatory spay-neuter legislation "Just out of curiosity, what is the reason behind those compulsary neuter/spay rules?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamincomet Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 It's my understanding that the ILP/PAL program was introduced to allow pet owners who may have adopted a purebred or suspected purebred of unknown lineage from a shelter or rescue to be able to compete in all events besides conformation. Kind of like how they're allowing mixed breeds to compete now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 I called the AKC to see if they accept a vasectomy instead of a traditional neuter, but the short answer was no. The end result is the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 It's my understanding that the ILP/PAL program was introduced to allow pet owners who may have adopted a purebred or suspected purebred of unknown lineage from a shelter or rescue to be able to compete in all events besides conformation. Kind of like how they're allowing mixed breeds to compete now. This is not directed to you, but I feel like they started pal/ilp and now mixed breed to make money, I don't believe it was out of the goodness of their hearts to support mixed breeds or rescue dogs. Even though that might be what they want people to think. I have had some very strict akc people tell me ''you don't have real dogs' b/c I have mixed breeds and that my cbca pup does count b/c he's not akc, so I may be a bit jaded. I know there are a lot of great individual people involved akc, and I have met many. But I for one would never knowingly see a dime of mine support akc or their ventures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickif Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 This is not directed to you, but I feel like they started pal/ilp and now mixed breed to make money, I don't believe it was out of the goodness of their hearts to support mixed breeds or rescue dogs. Even though that might be what they want people to think. I know there are a lot of great individual people involved akc, and I have met many. But I for one would never knowingly see a dime of mine support akc or their ventures. Yep, I agree 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamincomet Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Oh I agree, when you get down it everything the AKC does is for money. It took them forever to allow mixed breeds. I was active in a local kennel club when it happened actually. It was one of my last meetings, the president went on a spheel about how the AKC stands for purity and we shouldn't allow mixed breeds at OUR show. It was a whole process to talk her down, but plenty of the members were pissed enough to push for it. They ended up voting to not allow mixed breeds this year, because it was "too much of a hassle" since the other kennel club we put a show on with wasn't going to. e_e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Just throwing this out there. Any agility organization you want to compete in you also have to register for. My dogs are dual register. If you do PAL or just register him you will need to take pics of him stacked. PAL you can get rejected if your dogs doesn't look true to breed standard. And yes I do know people who dogs were 'rejected'. They supposedly got more strict specially after they added the mixed breed program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Agility is a profit center for AKC so your agility dollars will be going to support all of their activities. I've probably asked the same question before but I've forgotten the answer. Do the AKC really make a profit out of agility and if so what money goes into their coffers? Our UK KC accounts show that they spend more on promoting the sport than they get in revenue from it. It costs £15 to register a dog of any kind on the Activity Register for life, and that isn't necessary if the dog is already on the breed register. I think it's about £80 a year for a club to remain a KC registered club, but it could be a multidisciplinary club, not just agility. To run a show the normal KC licence fee for the most common type of show is £35 a day or £45 if major qualifiers are being held. We have just run a show with 6 days of competition and over 18k runs and all the KC has received from us is £240 for the licences. They get nothing from the entries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rufftie Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 mum- at least in this area, agility shows are carrying the akc. it is where the most money is coming from and growing. the confirmation shows are getting smaller while agility just keeps getting bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 The AKC gets a small fee for every single entry. FYI - "Fees include AKC recording fee of $3.50 for the 1st entry and $3 for additional entries per run/per dog/per day." You can see how it adds up. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 The AKC gets a small fee for every single entry. FYI - "Fees include AKC recording fee of $3.50 for the 1st entry and $3 for additional entries per run/per dog/per day." You can see how it adds up. Jovi Thank you. I thought it must be that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 There have been many discussion on US agility email lists about how AKC agility is a cash cow for them, and grumblings about being treated as second class citizens. From my readings of these lists it looks like agility is a huge growth area for them, while confirmation show entries and puppy registrations are falling. On a political note: I think there is a big difference between registering with an agility organization such as CPE or USDAA which have no agendas other than providing an organized environment for agility, than registering your dog with AKC ( in any of the available forms) which by doing you are supporting that organization with your money. There is no way round it The AKC is a lobbying group. Mum24dog, agility costs so much more here, you pay around £3.00 a run, in the US it costs between $10.00 and $25.00 depending on the organization and type of run. But I believe all the major US agility operators provide online record keeping, some send titles out automatically, no paper record keeping books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Mum24dog, agility costs so much more here, you pay around £3.00 a run, in the US it costs between $10.00 and $25.00 depending on the organization and type of run. But I believe all the major US agility operators provide online record keeping, some send titles out automatically, no paper record keeping books. If our KC took such a sizeable slice of our entry fees there would be virtually nothing left for the host club - unless they almost doubled the entry fees, which would mean fewer people would enter so less money coming in etc etc. Lack of official record keeping is one reason our agility is so cheap. The KC only wants the results from their sponsored qualifiers - everything else is done on trust. But then we don't have so much to keep track of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogrsqr Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 This is not directed to you, but I feel like they started pal/ilp and now mixed breed to make money, I don't believe it was out of the goodness of their hearts to support mixed breeds or rescue dogs. Even though that might be what they want people to think. I have had some very strict akc people tell me ''you don't have real dogs' b/c I have mixed breeds and that my cbca pup does count b/c he's not akc, so I may be a bit jaded. I know there are a lot of great individual people involved akc, and I have met many. But I for one would never knowingly see a dime of mine support akc or their ventures. The ILP process has been around for many years the PAL program only recently. I do believe that the ILP process was meant for those apparent purebreds without registration papers. The PAL program only came into being when the AKC started having money problems. And it's really weak since clubs aren't required to let mixes enter their trials Having started agility about 17 years ago with a mixed breed dog I would have welcomed the opportunity to show in another venue.(There were far less trials and venues back then). I was always told that AKC's mission was to promote the purebred dog, so eventually I came to believe that and be ok with that. Too bad they couldn't actually stick with their mission. Now I have absolutely no respect. Unfortunately I have ILP'd my rescue BC to enter herding trials because we don't have many of those around here and honestly I can't train enough to do real herding. Gina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Actually, the ILP program and PAL program are the same. Just a new name. The program that allows mixed breeds to compete is Canine Partners. Which of course AKC added because they finally realized they were losing some money to venues that allow mixed breeds to compete. It does suck that they left it up to clubs to decide if they want to allow the mixes to compete, although I don't know of any around here that don't allow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speckle-legged dog Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 http://agilityevents.net/ I was recently told of this site, it lists trial information for all different agility organizations by state. It's a handy reference! My dog is a BC mix (no neuter concerns there since she came spayed), we are still pretty new to agility and have done mostly NADAC, and are in Open in all but Weavers and Chances in that at this point. But it seems that so many people who I train with are always saying that the real agility is AKC and anything else is "just practice" for them. I have gone to one AKC trial so far, and while I like the courses, I didn't have nearly as much fun as I do at NADAC trials, which in my area are smaller and you can run up to 6 runs per day without HOURS in between runs. I am signed up for another AKC trial in late August, because I simply enjoy trialing and my dog loves getting to play agility any time - anywhere. But I have to admit, it is nagging at me that so many of our classmates consider AKC to be the "real deal" and I feel the need to give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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