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Two months (ish) ago, I made a topic in the general discussion subforum about how to boost a youngster's confidence. My then 8 month old bitch Lady is fairly soft and doesn't require or take a lot of pressure, and she would often stop everything to sniff and do something other than focus on the task at hand. As we continued doing lessons, I realised that A, she's still definitely a baby, and B, she's not AS fragile as I thought. Today's session was pretty enlightening. For once I was able to just let Lady book it after the sheep and "have fun" - other lessons were very structured in comparison - and I think it did her a world of good.

 

I took the advice in the thread - I ditched the stick (although I'm thinking eventually I can bring it back to make her open up more, when she's older), I walked facing away from her, I didn't overload her brain with a stream of happy-voice praise (but she was definitely being told she was doing great!), and I tried fairly abrupt changes of direction to keep her interest in the sheep from waning. Oh and these Blackfaces were a lot more mobile than the super-dogged Herdwicks we were used to, so that helped!

 

Please do tell me what else I can improve upon given Lady's age and the infrequency I can have lessons (roughly 1-2 times a month). Thank you!

 

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Saw a number of good things. Lady was keen; she was finding balance fairly quickly; and staying off the sheep an appropriate distance. Did her interest wane a little in the last minute or two of the session? If that is the case, you might try two or three short goes, rather than one long one. Finish while she is enthused, and try not to let her tell you when to end it. A smaller packet might keep Lady's interest longer.

 

You could start giving a name to her sides when she begins to flank to balance, and give her a few downs while fetching. When she knows her sides and can lie-down, there are series of exercises that you can begin. OTOH, if your intent is to keep her loose and flowing for now, in order to maintain/increase her keenness, it may be too early to introduce commands. She is still young, and more of the same may be just the thing for Lady. One video is just a snapshot, and seeing work over time provides a better foundation for suggestions.

 

Liked the way you walked through the sheep to call her off, provided shush's and kept her nose off the ground. Others will have ideas, based on what they saw. In my estimation, big difference for the better over the earlier videos. -- Kind regards, TEC

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This session was our very last of the day; I was waiting for my ride to come pick us up and so we were left to our own devices on the sheep. It's possible it lasted a touch longer than it should have, yes! Lady had had two prior sessions lasting 4-5 minutes each before this. :-)

 

 

We have started to give names to the sides, although I'm not sure the video picked up my voice. As for asking her to down while fetching, I was explicitly told to not down her when she would walk up on the sheep calmly. There were a few moments in previous sessions (and in this one, I can see) where she sort of barrels straight into the sheep after doing a really tight flank, and I did down her, or tried to, in those instances. Lady has become less and less willing to down when I tell her to, which honestly I am grateful for. She used to be very easy to command, but she just didn't appear terribly interested. Now she's turning "deaf" to me and I am happy she is taking more interest in her sheep. But yes, we'll have to come back to a reliable down eventually, I definitely agree.

 

Thank you for your insight on this. I am very happy with how it all went and overall, I can feel a difference in just how keen she was to work, compared to previous times. :-)

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often it is difficult to tell if changes come about because of our changes in training or just the fact that our dogs are a few months older. We can get ourselves in trouble when starting dogs too young with just a little time and patience making all the difference in a long career.

 

dave

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It is probably both? I don't pretend to know anything beyond what I have learned so far, but I have tried very hard to not exert the huge amount of pressure I was earlier on Lady. I think that cloud being lifted has made her sessions on sheep, rare as they are, happier and more productive experiences. I blame myself for the bobbles early on because I am a novice too, and since I do not have sheep (or even a car) of my own, opportunities to train are so far between.

 

I hear what you are saying though and do not worry since it is unlikely that I'll be able to push her too much, too often at this age. But even if I had the opportunity to train daily, I understand that it's very easy to spoil a young dog (especially as a beginner handler)! :-)

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...I am very happy with how it all went and overall, I can feel a difference in just how keen she was to work, compared to previous times. :-)

 

You should feel good about it. Good going. -- TEC

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She's really coming on nicely for you! Keep it up. :)

The only thing I would suggest is to stop using your hands/arms to "shush" her around on her flanks. Don't use body language that overt to cue her to her sides. Just walk and position yourself in relation to your sheep, but avoid the hand-waving. She's not supposed to look at you, after all. ;)

Good work, looking nice.

~ Gloria

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Oh that is definitely my own habit that I need to break, yes. :-D I should try keeping my hands in my pockets as I have this nagging desire to use them to "guide her around" even when I am pretty sure she wouldn't even notice if I didn't!

 

Thank you again for your replies in my previous thread Gloria. I took that all to heart and tried to put them to work in previous sessions, but had less luck in getting them on film!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Forgot to upload this until a little while ago. This is a less structured go on the sheep; I was basically told to ask Lady to find the balance point.. and that's it. We just kept her moving, very fluid, so she wouldn't have time to sniff poo or just stop and stare. What do you think of this approach?

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  • 1 month later...

http://youtu.be/CMYAx_ZYuKc

No stops and only superfluous directionals were used in the making of this video!

 

Lady is now one year of age, and we have had the fortuitous opportunity of daily practise on a handful of sheep while I visit a friend in Norfolk, UK. These sheep are, unfortunately, not at all friendly with humans (barring the farmer to whom they belong) and are actually quite stodgy and unwilling to move a lot of the time. I figured that if our first few goes went badly, I'd just call the whole thing off. Somehow, though, I think this ended up benefiting Lady.

 

She is now completely unafraid to go between these stroppy old ewes and the fence line, while before she was absolutely terrified of the prospect. These sheep have been fairly difficult, especially for a novice dog and handler. They won't seek me out as shelter so fetching is pretty much unheard of. But we manage to work on balancing anyway, and I have improved in asking her to balance simply based on where I am in relation to the sheep, rather than with having to clap and slap my leg to send her out.

 

She's also learned to not immediately wilt under pressure. There's a few in here (I think one Suffolk and one Texel in particular) that will stamp and pseudo-charge whenever they feel like it. When it first happened to Lady, she was actually quite surprised. The next time, she barked (I've never heard her bark near sheep). The time after that, she body-checked and gripped the offending sheep when it pretended to go for her one time too many. A far cry from the timid and extremely sensitive puppy from earlier. In the video you'll see one Texel (I think) be a repeat offender, and though Lady quickly gets out of the way, she goes right back in and no longer requires profuse encouragement to stick to the task.

 

I know there's loads of work to be done and being on sheep that like humans would probably help enormously, but I am so happy that we have had this opportunity. I will only be able to even dream of owning my own sheep in many years' time, and weekly exposure will require a car. So after we leave the UK this Wednesday, she'll have time off for a good while. But I think this has benefited her in a way I could not have predicted when we first set out.

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I am not very experienced, but since nobody has written anything, here are my thoughts:

 

In the first part where the sheep are getting away, I would go and help the dog, go to the sheep and turn them back. Since they don't like people, I would go one flank so that my going towards them does not scare them even more, and once I am on the dog's side, i would help her get the sheep to turn back.

 

Lady has some problems with the sheep because they are smart, lots of sheep can size up a dog very quickly. E.g. I have one ewe that is either an angel or a little hellion depending on what dog is working the flock. So Lady works hard at pushing the sheep, and occasionally she get them going faster. I would watch for these moments very carefully, and as soon as they come, I would move back more quickly to give the sheep room to come (since you are blocking them if they don't like people), otherwise your slow walk is slowing the sheep and making the job harder for the dog, and the little victories of getting them to trot lively are wasted.

 

So these are my comments, maybe other people will disagree. It looks like you are doing a fine job building Lady up. she is very young still too. Lots of things come with maturation.

 

I hope you will have lots of opportunity to practice working with sheep.

 

(I don't know if it matters, but i have no sound in my computer)

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Thank you for the reply!

 

Usually, I would lie her down, walk to her side of the flock and then help her push them along (if I don't lie her down, she'll just try and balance on the other side). But for this video I wanted to show both our problems and our highlights. Your method is how I did it - I walked carefully to not disturb or displace the sheep, then gently walked Lady up towards them to get them moving again. Else they would either bolt or face up to her. But again, I think it is important to show where we have problems, still, and not just the good parts!

 

I understand your point about moving faster; usually my issue with moving too quickly is that Lady will try to flank and head them off if I distance myself from the flock too quickly. And these sheep tend to move REALLY slowly away from their favourite corner. They are not terribly dogged and we had to work really hard to get them moving at all, so I will take a small victory of moving slowly when I can. Here is a video of her with lighter sheep (but they were real knee-knockers).

 

http://youtu.be/LUYpvIbT1fU

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...Usually my issue with moving too quickly is that Lady will try to flank and head them off if I distance myself from the flock too quickly. And these sheep tend to move REALLY slowly away from their favourite corner. They are not terribly dogged and we had to work really hard to get them moving at all, so I will take a small victory of moving slowly when I can

 

 

(I was almost finished and the i lost the whole darn post :( , so here i 'm starting over :) )

 

I understand the problem with sheep moving slowly and when you may be a pressure point for them rather than a draw. What I was referring to is this:

 

10" - you are letting the sheep go past you, and this causes Lady to rightly want to head them, which she does.

 

24" - again you stand, waiting for Lady to fetch them, the sheep come, stop, go past you, naturally Lady wants to head them.

 

3'30" the situation is the same, you let the sheep go past you although here I think you wanted Lady to go by the fence, but it is the situation illustrates what I mean.

 

 

In all these cases i think Lady would benefit more if the sheep were given room to go on without going past you, and lady an opportunity to wear them longer and not worry about you controlling them from the front. Of course it is necessary to go slowly most of the time with sheep like these, but the actual tempo should not be the same at all times. I think, one needs to watch for these moments very carefully and speed up a bit to help the dog both push them and also learn that you are controlling the sheep from the front so there is not need for Lady to head them, so that she feel comfortably at the back.

 

 

My Darinka likes to head too (and Bonnie did too) and this is what I've been doing with her, and this is what my teacher has been advising me to do (among other things). I don't use the heavy sheep for the main training session so you can't see them in the videos. But I have heavy sheep (even though they are small) and they are a royal pain in the neck. In your video with the cute herdwicks everything is happening smoothly because you don't need to be worried about the sheep hanging back, but with the heavy sheep you need to seek out the opportunities to help Lady capitalize on these moments an extend them. This will also be useful if you practice on light undogged/not-too-dogged sheep.

 

These sheep are very difficult for a young dog, and I don't see anything "pseudo" about the rams charging :) at Lady - she was doing great handling herself with them two ornery rams. Next time you're almost guaranteed to have much easier sheep.

 

I wish I could go to the UK too :)

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