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Venues that Award Placements for NQ Runs


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I'm just looking for some information for something completely unrelated to anything here. But I know that many of you have experience in different venues.

 

Do any of you know if any Agility venues, other than CPE and NADAC, offer placements for NQ (not NT) runs?

 

I know already that AKC does not. But I'm not sure about any of the others. USDAA, Docna, Teacup, ASCA, UKI, etc.

 

I know I could go to the website for every one of those venues and look up the info, but it seemed easier just to ask if anyone knows.

 

Thanks for any info!!

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I know in AKC you get a ribbon for qualifying even if you don't place...

 

I'm kind of confused as to why a venue would give awards to teams that NQ? You didn't meet the basic requirments/standard to qualify on that course or in the ring/on the field? You'll need to go back to training and try and improve? What's the point of a competitive environment at all?

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USDAA awards placements up to 4th place, Q or NQ.

 

Thanks! I thought USDAA did, but I wasn't sure.

 

That really gives me the information that I need. :)

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I'm kind of confused as to why a venue would give awards to teams that NQ? You didn't meet the basic requirments/standard to qualify on that course or in the ring/on the field? You'll need to go back to training and try and improve? What's the point of a competitive environment at all?

 

Placements measure how the team stacked up against the others in the class. Qualification measures whether or not the criteria were met to qualify. They are regarded by some organizations as two different things, not necessarily dependent on each other. You can qualify and not place, you can place and not qualify.

 

Even if nobody in the class qualified, there is still an order of performance. The best of those would be first, etc. Same goes in a class with a mixture of qualifications and teams that don't qualify.

 

The Q measures one's performance against the criteria for performance in a particular class/game at a given level.

 

The placement measures one's performance against the other competitors.

 

One need not depend on the other. There are two different "modes" if you will, of competition going on at the same time.

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I'm just trying to understand this, I've never competed in agility before...thinking about giving it a shot with one of my guys...so this is interesting. In agility(certain organizations)...even if you don't qualify for the the class you are in..you can still place??

 

I've competed in a variety of venues for both herding and competitive obedience over the years(AKC, ASCA, USBCHA, AHBA, UKC)..and all of them have a basic standard which you must complete in order to "qualify"...this is just a basic level of work that is expected..if it's something that you are not reasonably able to manage at this level of training for you and your dog, then you shouldn't be competing.

 

Examples of not readiness that I've seen(dogs that chase and take down sheep...or can't get there sheep at all or out of control..in obedience dogs who are sniffing all the time, can't do sit/down stays or are running around the ring while there owners do the heel pattern alone..etc, etc, etc) Either you as a trainer need to go back to the drawing board or the dog is super green and just needs time/consistency and ALOT of fun matches!!

 

Non of these venues I've competed in would allow people who did not meet this basic standard to place also? The competitor whose dog chases down and bites sheep does not get a ribbon even if everyone else NQ's also...someones dog who has very little idea of what "heel" means and is running in and out of heel position during there run does not get a ribbon or placement even if the others NQ also?

 

There must be a level of integrity at competitive events...or the people that are able to qualify with there dogs or even place highly in these events accomplishments are taken down a notch..

 

I have noticed in the events I've competed in there is a split between more competitive point seekers/HIT winners/etc..vs not so competitive people who are thrilled to qualify and get a title with there dog...that is totally cool!! I have utmost respect for both sets...but they do have to attain that standard, there's something to strive and work for..

 

 

Is there venues in agility where there are placements regardless? Maybe it's just so different from the others...

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To place they would have still needed to finish the course in a competitive time.

 

I don't like it and was totally surprised when I got a "placement " in USDAA even though I didn't pass. Thought it was stupid. (Sorry)

 

To me the placement is for completing the set course within the rules and time limit. If you go off course or knocked a bar or earn a refusal you didn't do what was set for the course so shouldn't place. But that is more my issue. Other people enjoy it so... shrug. They can't force you to take the ribbon. To me it cheapens the ribbons. To give it out without following the set rules or course. Other people like to know their dogs is "the best" or "should've/would've won if not for..." .

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To place they would have still needed to finish the course in a competitive time.

 

I don't like it and was totally surprised when I got a "placement " in USDAA even though I didn't pass. Thought it was stupid. (Sorry)

 

No offense taken. I think it makes sense, and I make no apology for that. :) You certainly don't need to apologize for having a different point of view.

 

To me the placement is for completing the set course within the rules and time limit.

 

OK, to you, that's what it means.

 

Obviously, to certain competition venues, and to many who choose to compete in those venues, it means something different - it is an indication of the finishing order among competitors in the class based on the measurement of the performance, not just the order of qualifiers. And that is certainly within the rights of an organization to determine for itself. :)

 

And, there are still certain criteria that must be met in order for a team to place.

 

If you go off course or knocked a bar or earn a refusal you didn't do what was set for the course so shouldn't place.

 

Yet, you still had a performance, and your performance has been measured by time and/or faults. FWIW, I think faulting "refusals" is stupid, so I definitely get that different people are going to see things things differently. :)

 

But that is more my issue. Other people enjoy it so... shrug. They can't force you to take the ribbon.

 

No, and nobody can force you to compete in a venue that offers something that you are against. I love that we have so many different styles of Agility to choose from. You don't place if you NQ, I don't have to worry about refusals. Win-win.

 

To me it cheapens the ribbons. To give it out without following the set rules or course.

 

However, it is given out in accordance with the rules. It is not given out according to the rules of another organization, but of the organization in which the rules stipulate that they be given out. Criteria still has to be met in order for a team to be eligible to place (an NT score cannot be received).

 

Other people like to know their dogs is "the best" or "should've/would've won if not for..." .

 

I can't say that the NQ placements that I've earned - and there are many - have made me feel like my dog is "the best". Those ribbons are just a marker of the place in the order of finish that we achieved on that particular run, exactly the same as our Q placements. I don't feel like my dog is "the best" with a Q placement either. Yes, in that run we were faster and/or cleaner than the other teams, but next time around, we might not even make the top 4.

 

Sometimes I do feel good because my dog placed above another dog, whether we qualified or not. But usually I am just pleased that my dog gave her best out there, we had a great time, and we will, hopefully, have many more chances to run together again. If we walk away with a piece of ribbon for that - whether Q ribbon alone, Q and placement ribbon, or just a placement ribbon - that's just icing on the cake. I keep and appreciate every one of them, and none of them are cheap to me. They day any accomplishment with my dog feels cheap to me is the day I will walk away from dog sports and never look back.

 

But yes - this is subjective from person to person. What is meaningful to one might not be to another.

 

The bottom line to me here is that each organization has the prerogative to make its own rules - these sports were all made up by people to begin with. If an award is given out in accordance with those rules, then I consider it to be a valid award. If another organization sets things up differently, that is what it is, but I do not see that as a "cheapening" of the practices of a different organization. It's just a different approach.

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I'm just trying to understand this, I've never competed in agility before...thinking about giving it a shot with one of my guys...so this is interesting. In agility(certain organizations)...even if you don't qualify for the the class you are in..you can still place??

 

Yes.

 

I've competed in a variety of venues for both herding and competitive obedience over the years(AKC, ASCA, USBCHA, AHBA, UKC)..and all of them have a basic standard which you must complete in order to "qualify"...this is just a basic level of work that is expected..

 

And Agility is the same - to earn a Qualifying Score. If you do not meet the criteria for Qualifying Score - needed time on that course, no disallowed faults, etc., then you don't get a Qualifying Score. You do need so many Q's to move up to the next level - that's what Q's measure - proficiency at a given level.

 

Placements don't measure proficiency. Placements measure where you stacked up against the competition.

 

Think of a human race with hurdlers. Suppose the top 2 hurdlers would progress to the finals. The third place runner still placed third, even though he or she won't move on to the next round. Third place doesn't measure qualification for the finals - it measures which runner finished third. The third place runner will get a placement award for the placement - it is not dependent on whether that placement was a qualification or not. It's not exactly the same, of course, but I think it illustrates the point that "qualification" and "placement" can easily be two distinct things.

 

Placements in many Agility venues say the same thing. Who came in first in the order, who came in second, who came in third, and who came in fourth. The team may not have a Q score, but the placement says who finished where.

 

That's really all it says.

 

As far as NQ's being an indication of not being ready, if you ever compete in Agility, get ready for a bit of a culture shock. Everyone NQ's in Agility. NQ's don't necessarily mean that dog isn't ready to compete. Both dog and handler errors happen in split seconds, and the tiniest mistake (dog taking off a second too soon, handler cuing something a second too late) can lead to an NQ. Some of my best runs have been NQ runs, actually!! Those were runs where everything was perfect except one tiny thing. And sometimes Q runs are sloppy, but you still manage to Q. It is very, very, very different from Obedience in that regard.

 

The top name people with the best trained dogs NQ in Agility. Everyone NQ's. No team is on their game all the time and, in addition to having the necessary skills (which, yes, one should have before beginning competition), you do need to be "on your game" - and sometimes the handler, or dog, or both, simply aren't. And sometimes, even when you are, mistakes still happen in split seconds.

 

That isn't an indication of not being ready - it's just how it goes in Agility.

 

Is there venues in agility where there are placements regardless? Maybe it's just so different from the others...

 

Well, as Mary said above, USDAA, which is known to be the most competitive Agility venue in this country, awards placements for NQ runs.

 

This isn't a case of a venue that is out in left field doing something odd. I definitively know of three that do award placements for NQ runs and one that does not.

 

I still don't know about Docna, UKC, UKI, or Teacup. My guess would be that Docna does, UKC does not, UKI does, and no clue on teacup. Those are just my guesses, though. The only ones I know of for sure are the once cited above.

 

ETA: Looked online - Docna does award placements for NQ runs (if applicable, of course) So far, that is four that do, one that does not.

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Placements don't measure proficiency. Placements measure where you stacked up against the competition.

 

And against the course on the day.

 

Agility can't be compared with Obedience. The latter comprises a set series of exercises that are the same every time whereas the former has courses that can differ greatly and need more than pre programmed skills to tackle well.

 

I believe that you have more regulation of course design than we do but I'm sure you will still meet varying degrees of doability at different levels. A slight difference of angle or spacing can make a huge difference.

 

As far as NQ's being an indication of not being ready, if you ever compete in Agility, get ready for a bit of a culture shock. Everyone NQ's in Agility. NQ's don't necessarily mean that dog isn't ready to compete.

 

How do you judge a dog that has 4 runs in a day - 3 eliminations and beats Greg Derrett in the 4th? And that dog's KC name is - Culture Shock! :lol: And we have the "privilege" of owning him.

 

Some shows he will be competing against the best in the country and even a low place with or without faults is an achievement. Sometimes there will be few or no top dogs to compete against and a clear win wouldn't mean a great deal. It's all relative.

 

We don't have a Q system and speed is vital which leads to a lot of crash and burn runs, especially at top level.

 

Here in the UK you can be placed whether you have a clear round or not. What you cannot do is progress to the next grade with a win that was not clear, and it does occasionally happen that there are no clear rounds in a class. Sometimes it means that the standard of dog is low, other times the judge may have misjudged the course design. On the whole though, people tend not to turn up for presentations if they have had faults because they don't expect to be placed.

 

And you cannot count placement points towards the total needed for an Agility Warrant if the round wasn't clear.

 

Convention here is that places are awarded to 10% of the entry in the class but quite a few shows give more as encouragement to those with dogs that are never going to set the Agility world on fire. We can accommodate all abilities and economy of scale means that we can keep prices low. Giving a non clear 15th place in a class of over 100 to someone who hardly ever has anything to show for the work they put in is not going to alter the fact that the best dogs on the day are going to take the top places.

 

Pam

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As far as NQ's being an indication of not being ready, if you ever compete in Agility, get ready for a bit of a culture shock. Everyone NQ's in Agility. NQ's don't necessarily mean that dog isn't ready to compete. Both dog and handler errors happen in split seconds, and the tiniest mistake (dog taking off a second too soon, handler cuing something a second too late) can lead to an NQ. Some of my best runs have been NQ runs, actually!! Those were runs where everything was perfect except one tiny thing. And sometimes Q runs are sloppy, but you still manage to Q. It is very, very, very different from Obedience in that regard.

 

The top name people with the best trained dogs NQ in Agility. Everyone NQ's. No team is on their game all the time and, in addition to having the necessary skills (which, yes, one should have before beginning competition), you do need to be "on your game" - and sometimes the handler, or dog, or both, simply aren't. And sometimes, even when you are, mistakes still happen in split seconds.

 

That isn't an indication of not being ready - it's just how it goes in Agility.

 

Christine,

The above is a very good explanation of the trials (pun intended) and tribulations of running Agility. But to expound on it a bit: Every dog is different, and some dogs are so sensitive that if you take one step in one direction, the dog goes over one jump, but if you step one foot in another direction, the dog can go over a different jump. That can be wonderful and frustrating at the same time. As you say, if you are not on your game, with complete control of your body movements and timing, these minor mistakes can lead to an NQ. On the other hand, when all is flowing well, the run is a thing of beauty - you and your dog are working seamlessly.

 

As you say, the top competitors will NQ, not because their dog is 'not prepared' for the trial, but because they are pushing their dog for every last bit of speed, and if one tiny miscalculatiion is made, there is no chance of recovery.

 

When you think about it, some of the fastest dogs are running ~ 6 yards or more per second on a JWW run. If the run is completed in 30 seconds (as an example), that is 180 yards of jumps and twists and turns and a set of weave poles (which reduces speed substantially). Those dogs are moving.

 

Jovi

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I'm glad you weighed in on this, Pam. I know that you all don't have a qualifying system, but I wasn't sure if there were stipulations on the awarding of placements - if the run must be clear, as you phrase it.

 

So, basically, your placements measure the order of performance, whether anyone is eligible to progress or not.

 

And I'm glad you brought up the importance of the course in a team's performance in a given day. I thought of that after I posted above.

 

Not all courses in a given level are really at the same "level". Some are incredibly difficult, even for the best of the best! No matter how prepared your dog may be, if your course strategy is off on a given day . . . well, that's that unless you have some good fortune - which does happen sometimes, but not always!!

 

I often hear stories at class, from competitive people in the upper levels, "all but two people NQ'ed on this course because nobody saw (insert hidden challenge here) in this particular sequence . . ."

 

No matter how prepared you might be, you never know exactly what you will get on an Agility course!

 

That's part of the built in challenge of the sport.

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So, basically, your placements measure the order of performance

 

Yes - on that day, on that course, against those dogs, in those weather conditions etc.

 

And the next day will present a whole new set of challenges, of course.

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And that is why I wish there were do-overs! :D

 

You know, I got one once?!!??

 

Last year I was running Tessa in a Standard run and she ran around and took the double backwards, knocking the bars off.

 

Next thing I know, I hear, "Wait! Wait! Start over!" I was startled - that had never happened in my recollection.

 

Turns out the double was set wrong! In CPE, it is graduated, and it had been set flat! The judge noticed it when Tessa knocked the bar and she let us start over - actually she made us start over!! LOL!!

 

Second attempt was perfect - it was our first Standard Q! It was pretty darn cool!! :) Quite a unique experience.

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Dear Doggers,

Ms. 'bc soul sista' writes (in part):

 

I've competed in a variety of venues for both herding and competitive obedience over the years(AKC, ASCA, USBCHA, AHBA, UKC)..and all of them have a basic standard which you must complete in order to "qualify"...this is just a basic level of work that is expected..if it's something that you are not reasonably able to manage at this level of training for you and your dog, then you shouldn't be competing.

 

Examples of not readiness that I've seen(dogs that chase and take down sheep...or can't get there sheep at all or out of control.."

 

FYI: At North American traditional sheepdog trials the top finishers earn points which decide which dogs may compete in the National Finals but there are no "qualifications" and at some inforrmal trials no awards or ribbons.

 

If a dog shouldn't be out there, the judge may Disqualify him in which case the handler and dog leave the field with no score.

 

Since zero = zero, at the end of the day RETs and DQ's are often listed alphabetically by handler name.

However many points the dog had before the DQ or RET have vanished like smoke.

 

 

Donald McCaig

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But yes - this is subjective from person to person. What is meaningful to one might not be to another.

 

Here it's interesting to see which of the top handlers don't bother to take even their first place trophies and rosettes in normal classes. Some take them and immediately throw them away.

 

Ordinary classes where there is really nothing important at stake are just training/proofing opportunities for them and they don't need any more dust gatherers. It's different if the class is a qualifier for a national final or a final itself.

 

That's one extreme - and at the other end there are those who collect absolutely everything, including the clear round rosettes we give for unplaced clear rounds, and presumably proudly display them all.

 

Awards (whatever the venue determines they should be) should be available on the principle that they will be appreciated by the recipient rather than withheld because they might not be valued by some.

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FYI: At North American traditional sheepdog trials the top finishers earn points which decide which dogs may compete in the National Finals but there are no "qualifications" and at some inforrmal trials no awards or ribbons.

 

If a dog shouldn't be out there, the judge may Disqualify him in which case the handler and dog leave the field with no score.

 

Since zero = zero, at the end of the day RETs and DQ's are often listed alphabetically by handler name.

However many points the dog had before the DQ or RET have vanished like smoke.

 

 

Donald McCaig

 

As I imagined but didn't know enough to argue the point.

 

I don't see how sheepdog trialling could have set qualifying standards to meet since every run will be different - each bunch of sheep will have its own quirks, terrain will differ etc.

 

(In the same way there is no official world record for the Marathon since the distance may be the same but the routes are different.)

 

And even a normally good dog can have an off day where it all goes to pieces - I've seen enough to know that. It doesn't mean that the dog shouldn't be competing.

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That's one extreme - and at the other end there are those who collect absolutely everything, including the clear round rosettes we give for unplaced clear rounds, and presumably proudly display them all.

 

OK, those clear rosettes sound cool!! I would definitely keep those, although I doubt I would display them, unless one were really super special.

 

I don't display everything, but I have pretty boxes that I keep all of my dog's ribbons in and those have a place in my sewing room. I display what is most special - Speedy's 3rd place trophy for the Invitational (won by crowd applause), Dean's ARCH certificate and big ribbon, Speedy's first ever placement ribbon (a second) that we got for a Rally course in a context that messed up some of the most solid dogs (that hangs on his picture, and always will), Speedy's first 3 Freestyle placement medals, a couple of Maddie's title ribbons. Something of Tessa's has to go up soon!!

 

But I do keep everything. The one and only exception is if someone runs my dog and places, I give them the placement ribbon.

 

Awards (whatever the venue determines they should be) should be available on the principle that they will be appreciated by the recipient rather than withheld because they might not be valued by some.

 

Nicely put - I definitely concur!!

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Hi Donald!!

 

Yes I know there is no "Q" or "NQ" or title in USBCHA trialing...I guess I was trying to compare the fact that there is a standard though that is some what similar to the parameters in place for qualifying/non-qualifying rounds in other competitions...

 

The dreaded RT(handler chooses to leave the post) or the DQ(judge gives ya the "thank you" you're done)...although not nearly as tough and sometimes silly(in AKC you get NQ'd in herding if you leave the arena without putting a leash on your dog)..they do have a basic level of competence that is expected..

 

Also, when you get an RT/DQ in USBCHA you get no score and you do not get any kind of placement with theother competitors....you can look up the breakdown of your scores on your own but nobody does that for you and comes out with a list of ranking in the class with the RT/DQ's included...only teams that get some kind of score..

 

It can actually be quite interesting...on tough sheep and in tough situations some dogs with pretty low actual scores win!! They got the job done when no one else could put a score on the board ;) LOVE IT!!

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Just want to add something about the culture of USDAA were the tournament classes are king. In those placement and speed is everything. You can Q in steeplechase with a knocked bar, its time plus faults. I made it into a steeplechase final with 3 knocked bars because well not to put to fine a point on it we are bloody fast (well he is I just do my best to make it happen).

To my detriment in title classes I run every run for the win, because I don't want my dog to ever think the game can be played at any other speed, which means between the two of us we are capable of taking bars, mostly from mistimed cues.

To be honest coming from a horse back ground, I have never seen getting a placement without a clear round as a negative. In show jumping and eventing it is time plus faults... No different from USDAA or even NADAC.

 

But check out the ribbons, in NADAC you mostly get a big Q ribbon and a little placement one, in USDAA you get a great big placement ribbon and a little Q one, personally I think it says a lot about the culture of both organisations.

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Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Pam writes (in part): "Awards (whatever the venue determines they should be) should be available on the principle that they will be appreciated by the recipient rather than withheld because they might not be valued by some."

 

No dog cares more about a blue ribbon than a white one. Rewards are for folks. And, consequently, they're not inconsequential.

 

Since they are among top dog breeders'/handlers' motivations, over time what is importantly rewarded does direct what a breed becomes.

 

I have never once heard an AKC herder say "My HIT made me very happy but, of course, it's no test of a working dog."

 

Donald McCaig

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No dog cares more about a blue ribbon than a white one. Rewards are for folks. And, consequently, they're not inconsequential.

 

Since they are among top dog breeders'/handlers' motivations, over time what is importantly rewarded does direct what a breed becomes.

 

I have never once heard an AKC herder say "My HIT made me very happy but, of course, it's no test of a working dog."

 

Donald McCaig

I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak, but what Donald says is something I have observed over and over again. People considering an HIT to be justification to breed; considering a "started title on ducks" (or something similar) to be proof of "working ability" and justification to breed; considering "herding" the children to be proof of "working ability"; considering a "Novice Champion" award to be proof of breeding-worthiness.

 

When you reward work that isn't really worthwhile "work", you just reinforce the idea that there has been a big accomplishment - and that does have an influence over time.

 

But, in the pet dog world, does offering placings and ribbons/trophies whether the dog gets a Q or NQ or whatever mean a thing? Only to those who value such things. We are talking different cultures here, Donald, and we all know it.

 

PS - I had a friend who had a top show herd of Nubian dairy goats. She didn't even bother to take home ribbons, kept her rosettes in a trunk, and only displayed trophies for Champion wins in her house. She felt those to be the only awards that meant anything of worth. She had a good-milking herd, too.

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No dog cares more about a blue ribbon than a white one. Rewards are for folks. And, consequently, they're not inconsequential.

 

I found that Maddie learned that good things happened when I showed up with those ribbons in my hand!! She got extra attention, extra treats, and extra lavishing of praise and hugs from me. Consequently, she liked when they showed up! Of course, nothing bad happened when they didn't - I'm not that kind of competitor. But by her last trials, when I showed up with hands full of ribbons, her eyes lit up and her tail wagged.

 

She knew! No, not what color they were or anything like that. But she did recognize the sight of ribbons in my hand and she knew that when I had them, she was going to be an extra happy girl.

 

When it comes down to it - a piece of ribbon is nothing. I could buy ribbon at the craft store, cut it, and get it printed with shiny letters. It would mean nothing.

 

But when ribbons (or medals or whatever) mark accomplishments that my dog and I achieve together, they become quite valuable to me. Maddie learned that ribbons in my hand meant something to me in some sense.

 

I miss that girl more than I ever would have thought possible. It took quite a while for me to be able to go pick up ribbons for Tessa without it being more bitter than sweet. It was quite the ritual for Maddie and me - I would go get her ribbons, and then I would go back, show them to her, and then we would share some special time together. I think I will always think of her when I go to collect ribbons at Agility trials, although I do so now with a smile and my mind is more on the dog who is with me.

 

Maybe someday Tessa will make that same connection. Who knows? They never fail to surprise me with some of the things they figure out.

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But check out the ribbons, in NADAC you mostly get a big Q ribbon and a little placement one, in USDAA you get a great big placement ribbon and a little Q one, personally I think it says a lot about the culture of both organisations.

 

The NADAC thing must vary from place to place. All of the NADAC placement ribbons that I've gotten have been the same size as the Q ones.

 

CPE definitely varies. Mostly the Q and placement ribbons are the same size, but I have gotten jumbo sized Q ribbons (I find them highly amusing for some reason) with regular sized placements, and teeny tiny Q ribbons (super cute!) with bigger placements.

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