Extremely Fearful BC puppy

[juliepoudrier]

I guess I'm just confused by this whole thread. I thought the OP wanted advice on helping her dog, but it seems that the advice is either being dismissed as not workable in the real world or as "we already tried that." So I'm not actually sure what it is the OP is looking for here. Confirmation that you're on the right track? Additional ideas (maybe completely out of the box or something?) that you might not yet have considered? Commiseration that it will probably get better?

 

What I'm reading is that you're happy with your own approach, don't want to hear arguments against the approaches (i.e., Cesar Milan) that you like, and don't want to consider other ideas because they require pulling your pup back from the kinds of interactions he's having right now. Maybe by posting you're working to clarify your own thoughts, but otherwise I'm lost about how the folks here are supposed to help if their suggestions are so readily dismissed as not practical (i.e., the only way to exercise him is at the dog park or on walks where you will meet/pass strangers vs. in his own yard or with a select few dogs/people he likes and trusts)?

 

Re: Breeders: Size is't so important, though I'd go for a smaller breeder vs. a large-volume breeder for many reasons that have been discussed on this forum many times. What matters is that the breeder can tell you about the temperaments/abilities of his/her dogs, point you at pups and their owners from previous litters so you can ask about the qualities that are important to you, point out relatives that are doing similar work to the type of work you expect from your dog, and so on. It's possible that breeder has produced nothing but wonderful, sociable pups and yours is just an anamoly, but I got a pup not too long ago whose entire litter exhibit some of the same traits, to a greater of lesser degree. So chances are that if issues like that exist, someone else has experienced it or knows about it. Breeders often want to sell pups and aren't going to jump right up and say, "Well you know their mom Flossy was extremely fearful for the first 18 months of her life," because that's likely to lose the breeder a sale, but a previous puppy buyer has no ulterior motives, generally, and will give you the kind of information a breeder might not.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

at the time I thought using a breeder of dogs that were not being used as herding dogs (that were pets) seemed like a better idea since he would not be herding within our family.

 

I follow your thinking but the problem is that you never know what part of the working package is likely to pop up in pups bred like that. Basic working characteristics will likely still be there in the genes and not buried too deep.

 

You may get all the potentially problematic behaviours (chasing, nipping etc) without any of the compensating good traits (bidability, focus, off switch etc).

 

You might strike lucky and get the reverse but the odds are probably not great.

[gcv-border]

he is GREAT at learning obedience, he loves to do it, we do it everyday and he looks forward to it and knows so much - her list of things that she would do during training are things he already can do - sit, down, stay, place - he also speaks, rolls over, and covers his eyes with his paw! Our only real problem is leash walking and automatic sit but she doesn't promise that at 100% after the 2 weeks anyway.

I differentiate between 'tricks' and 'behaviors'. Tricks can be sit, lie down, wave, cover his eyes with his paw, etc. To teach some of the simple tricks, can take as little as 10-15 minutes - at least for a BC. Behaviors are much more complex and can take months to really 'learn' the behavior. Leash walking is a great example of a behavior. Many people think that something is wrong with their pup if it is not leash walking by 3-4 months old. (yes, there have been those posts here) I treat leash walking as a behavior because it must last for more than the 2-5 seconds that is required for a 'trick'. Leash walking can require a constant focus on you (depending on how closely you want your dog to walk next to you) for a sustained period. As you know, sustained focus is very hard for young children and pups. The second challenge when teaching behaviors is proofing for distractions. Again, proofing is going to be a months long or year long process - depending on the level of attentiveness you want. So -- IMO, the 'trainer' was correct when she could not promise leash-walking after 2 weeks. It is an ongoing training process for the first year or so.

 

As for CM, even though I posted the book review, I am not totally against CM either. As others have said, you have to pick and choose - although personally I find little to use, there is the occasional insight. IMO, the genius behind CM is his body language and attitude. It is very effective with dogs. I don't think it is something that can be learned from watching his shows (although I still try to watch his gestures, attitudes, etc. to see if I can pick up something.) Some people have the gift, or can learn it. I have seen it with a select few visitors to my house who interact particularly well (calmly, but it is more than just a calm attitude) with my dogs. With CM, I have noticed that in the last few years, I have seen almost none of the "put the dog on its side" type of treatment, whereas that was very common when he first appeared on TV. I don't know if he has evolved in his training techniques or if the dogs they pick for the show do not require that treatment.

 

And I just read Julie's post, and had the same thoughts...

 

Jovi

[mum24dog]

IMO, the genius behind CM is his body language and attitude. It is very effective with dogs.

 

His body language and attitude may be effective but that isn't always a good thing. Intimidation can be effective, as he has often demonstrated, but it doesn't engender trust.

 

With CM, I have noticed that in the last few years, I have seen almost none of the "put the dog on its side" type of treatment, whereas that was very common when he first appeared on TV. I don't know if he has evolved in his training techniques or if the dogs they pick for the show do not require that treatment.

 

The dogs in his early series didn't require that treatment either.

I doubt if he has voluntarily evolved since he still talks a load of insubstantial nonsense, but he has tried to change his public persona somewhat in the face of international criticism. That's just the cynic in me.

Anyway, I'm glad he cancelled his planned tour of the UK.

[mtnfrank]

Another resource is this small booklet by Patricia McConnell: The Cautious Canine, how to help dogs conquer their fears

 

It's a quick read, not as in depth or with training exercises than some of the other resources listed above but worth a read.

 

The CM debate has been done before, the OP can make his/her own mind about it, final thing I would say on this is that I would recommend reading/watching the link below that goes over some of the beliefs and techniques CM uses

http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/?/dominance.php

 

Now for the personal experience, my adopted dog was very play obsessed, ball possessive and was also developing fear-aggression meeting other dogs (initially was fear but as his confidence improved it was becoming proactive fear aggression). As I don't have a backyard and instead was relying on the dog park and large offleash park near my place, it was not ideal for him. I would make small progress in making him relax and focus on me, but then that would get ruined when someone would throw a stick next to him or let their dog invade 'his space' bringing him back to his bad habits. One step forward, almost a step back every day.

 

After discussing with the rescue, we decided this was not the best environment to help him improve due to the constant over exposition to things that would bring him over threshold (cats, kids although this was improving fast, any dogs that wasn't overtly friendly or playful with him, any ball-frisbee-branch being thrown, etc.). All that making any expected progress to be very slow in the environment I could provide him. I ended being a foster instead of a final adopter (he has been adopted again and now lives on a large multi-acres property). I so wanted to keep him even though it would not have been able to train for SAR as I initially wanted to do. And would have if I didn't trust the rescue but I really believed this was not the right environment for him.

 

So yes the real world is full of challenges to a fearful dog, but not all dogs are dog park candidates and some will blossom much more easily in the right environment.

[beachdogz]

Can't speak for Caesar Milan, but can tell you about a "well known" dog trainer from 30 years ago. She came to a local town and my friend was asked if she would bring one of her dogs for an obedience demo. She was delighted, and arrived with a titled dog. She was asked to sit off-set with her dog. She was under the impression that she would be on camera doing a demo. At one point "well-known woman dog trainer" asked for a dog with no training so that she could show her method. My friend's dog was taken from her and before you know it, "well-known woman" was demonstrating her unique training methods with my friend's CDX titled dog (who the audience was told was "untrained"). So no matter what show (or even video)-- there are many tricks of the trade (especially with video editing now a days) that can lead you to think something works quickly and well, when it doesn't.

 

I also wondered what this pup's parents were like. I always tell people to meet the dam (and sire, if present) and the breeder's other dogs. You really aren't buying just a puppy, you are buying that breeder's lines. Temperament problems may show themselves to you through the parents or siblings.

[sixx]

Hopefully I'm not repeating any posts (too many to read at the moment), but as a handler with experience in fear reactivity, my best advice is to never punish or use corrections to "fix" his fears.

 

If Whiskey is at his threshold and you punish him for lunging or growling, you will only suppress his behavior. The end result will be he no longer gives you or others precursors, and will bite instead. Growling is good at this point, he is letting you know he needs to be away from whatever is scaring him (people, dogs).

 

As for my own success story, it took years of studying and training to help my girl (got her at 6 months old, abused). She loves people now. I won't go into all the details of training (I could write a book!), but the best thing that works for her is giving her a rewarding job. When we are out walking on trails, and she sees someone walking towards us, she immediately comes to me to play stick. She loves to have a job, and knows that she gets rewarded when people are headed our way. She associates strangers with play. The strangers could stand around and stare at her (which is a threat), talk to her, or they could even pet her, and she could care less.

 

Just keep on with the hard work, it will be very rewarding, even if you just get a dog that loves and trusts you and wants to be your companion or working partner.

[sixx]

There's a book called Calming Signals, about doggy body language, that you may find helpful. My local library has it, you could check with yours.

 

 

That is an amazing book, and truly helpful. Especially for visual learners (like myself). I definitely recommend!

[sixx]

Another thought... aggression is a learned behavior. Allowing your puppy to be off-leash in an uncontrolled dog park, where he has been able to snap at faces, is only reinforcing that behavior. You yourself even said he snaps at times, why allow your puppy to be in that situation??