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SG's Recallers Course

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And the class I took I felt I knew much more about dog behavior in general that the instructor. One suggestion for getting a dog to come at a dog park was leaving a flexi on the dog. It was stated that all dogs would find basic obedience to be aversive at first but they would get used to it and learn to enjoy it

 

 

Yikes. I had a bit of sticker shock when I moved to this area which is more of a major metropolitan area than where I had been living for many years because dog classes were double what I paid there. I pay $150 for 8 weeks of obedience, $175 for 6 weeks of CU class, $130 for 8 weeks of nosework and $25 for a tracking lesson.

 

Luckily I am getting top notch instruction (my nosework teacher is moving slower than I would like but since I like her and know next to nothing about the sport I will stick with her)...I would be hard pressed to pay it if I didn't.

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This:

Really Reliable Recall DVD by Leslie Nelson.

 

(Sorry the link didn't work, but it is available through www.cleanrun.com ).

 

I have this DVD, and it is absolutely excellent. Author has sighthounds, and if someone can put a RRR on one of them...well, it is good.

You can learn all that other "stuff" elsewhere for a LOT less money too.

 

Just my two cents' worth....

diane

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Most basic classes around here are about $160-180 for a 6 week session, so I guess that sways my opinion of overpricing.

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This:

 

You can learn all that other "stuff" elsewhere for a LOT less money too.

 

Just my two cents' worth....

diane

 

 

Have you done the course?

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Have you done the course?

 

Now you've piqued my curiosity. ;)

 

Since you have taken the course, what would you say you have learned that you couldn't learn elsewhere?

 

I'm not asking you to spill training secrets. Clear identification of the end result or purpose of the exercises will certainly suffice.

 

:D

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Now you've piqued my curiosity. ;)/>

 

Since you have taken the course, what would you say you have learned that you couldn't learn elsewhere?

 

I'm not asking you to spill training secrets. Clear identification of the end result or purpose of the exercises will certainly suffice.

 

:D/>

 

To address my rather maybe snarky comment of before first. I rather hate it when people comment on something they've never personally done, or taken --like a course. The thread was made specifically about her recallers course, and keeping on the subject and providing alternate similar courses is great. But saying you can find better stuff elsewhere for the money, is an irrelevant thing to bring up if you do not have first hand experience of working through a program. We live in a world where there is too much information sometimes, gets tiring filtering through junk or opinions when they haven't personally done something. Or just even offer up the sources where your opinions were formed and why, or outright say you haven't done it. Just so ppl know!

 

Not saying specifically to stuff on this thread or board even, just an in general thing That's starting to annoy me :P

 

The course. No big training secrets or anything like that, if you say down and analyzed your training you probably know a lot of it, and most of it is re-hashed ideas from other trainers . Most all dog training seems to be. I love that she's science based, when something is mentioned I can easily find it referenced through a quick google search. Usually in a scholarly journal. I like that. There's too much crap floating around, science gives all things a foundation and you know? I'm bad with words, I like science ;)

 

Why I love the course is its community and organization. Everything is already there and laid out for you. No researching needed. and its mot just the games. its written content, videod content, and she really talks about wvery aspect of everything. i dont have to filter through bs on youtube and forums/blogs, its all there. And rolled out in a progreasive mannwr building on lrevious content. SG is unforgiving, very in a sense even. She's HUGE on holding people accountable for what's happening. It's not the how to train, but the why, with so many anecdotes and activities to really make you think about everything you are doing and it's affect on your dogs behaviour. In a sense, The training games are great, but it is the everything else in the course that makes it awesome. Like a lot of it is common sense, but its presented in a way that really gets your brain active. She's an over-achiever, and it really does show in all the content she gives. Very heavy course. Great for training nerds like I! And the fact that I got enrolled in this 4.0 for free by doing a two minute video (gimmicky, yea, but talk about customer loyalty and great value for her in advertising and me for my money). The 4.0 is more evolved than 3.0 and apparently it just keeps evolving like that with what she learns. This one is especially great as she just went through swagger, fresh stuff on her brain to share with us.

 

It's a recallers course in training and name. But it's more of a clean up your sloppy dog training program for me. I've never needed help on how to train something (sure ive askes for help and opinions but i can always solve my own problems) that comes naturally. What I need is organization, and a better cleaner process. It's just all laid out wonderfully.

 

I just recently became a 'say yes' groupie per say. Lameee! I faught it for a long time, I'm very independent. I signed up for puppy peaks and recallers 3.0 because I moved away and was trainer less for a year only 5 months after the agility (And dog training) bug bit me. The Internet had lots of info but sorting through it all was tiring for a newb. I didn't do much work into it, yet slowly over a year it all fell into place and I found myself using more of what I learned. I just took an audit spot in her seminar in Vancouver in feb. the fact that she had changed her handling style to one more complimentary to what I wanted to do, told me to really dedicate myself to recallers this time. And yes, it is already positively impacting all interactions with my dog and she hasn't even rolled out any training games yet, just the pre course reading and homework that really gets you thinking.

 

Wow . Long . Sorry! :D

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I have also taken the course and LOVE IT! I also have the Leslie Nelson DVD - nothing like the course. I agree with ChantelB that it is maybe not named the best as it really is some of the best training money I have spent. seriously. I also was skeptical at first and thought it was pricey, but after you start doing it, the value is amazing. As folks mentioned, around here a 6 week class is around $120 - that amounts to $20 per night. This class is $250, but is 30-35 days of lessons and tons of feedback, coaching calls and 4 months access for basic level. Plus, once you do it, if you create a video, you get to do it again for free. Athat doesn't happen for any other class. You learn something new each time. The coaching calls alone are worth it. with any training class you get out of it what you put into it, but I highly recommend it to anyone wanting to do agility, obedience, tracking, or any other sport. As far as the sales tactics, she is a business woman and this is her business. No trainer should be expected to do it for free. She has a sophisticated marketing campaign, that I'm a little envious of. She has a lot of talent and provides a lot of value for the money. I certainly think it is worth it. Also, for the highest level, it also includes an in person camp/seminar - usually 500+ no matter who you do it with, plus you get some of her other courses for free or discounted. it is more than worth it.

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Thought I would add one more thing for comparison on price. I have also done Scott Glen's sheep dog training course - which is $99. You get 4 lessons plus video homework and can post questions related to the content that he will answer. you will have 2 months access to review material. though I loved this course and will take the next if he offers another, With SGs you get 30-35 lessons, feedback that is specific to what you are doing, live coaching calls, community chat and 4 months access for $250. there are other online training courses from agility U and others, that charge between $100-$200 for 6 weeks, too. When you look at what you get and Compared to what others are charging for online courses, SG is not out of line at all. Just to clarify, I loved Scott Glen's course too, just wanted to add some perspective.

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I have never done any of Susan Garrets online courses etc. but was able to meet her in person for the first time at one of our trials here in Florida a few months ago, and I would hand over my $250 in a heartbeat to her if I had more time to work through the program. When I heard of the cost of her programs last year I was flabbergasted at people paying thousands for some of her seminars etc. I tought like some here that it is a money making gimmick and she reminded me of some over commercialized trainers in the horse world. With that said after meeting Susan my perspective changed totally. She was so "normal". Susan was amazingly personalbe, kind, and down to earth. She truly loves her dogs and has an amazing working relationship with them. Seeing her young dog Swagger run and her just laugh when he made mistakes, she never once looked frustrated even as he pulled the entire ring gating down trying to get to his toy at the end of the run. She's a natural teacher which many people are not, she is encouraging and accepting of others, and I never got any vibe she felt better then the next person waiting to run. I personally am not much on obedience training but Susan is a master at making games to make learning fun and interesting to both dog and handler and making you break things down into peices to perfect the larger picture of your dogs performance. The pre-agility foundation training can be the most important part of your dogs whole agility career and that to me is well worth $250 to set my dog up as a successful working partner.

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I am the original poster. I was paying $80 for five 1 hour sessions. In total, I paid this person $240 for 15 hours of instruction (sort of). I brought my dog to this person as a 9.5 week old and feel like I did not receive a foundation, nor was there a "program" as far as I could tell.

 

I registered for Recallers last night. For the same amount of money, I have unlimited access to the web site for 4 months, so it is actually cheaper than the other thing. I thought that the introductory module was well-written and organized, and more importantly was very thought-provoking. I can already see that I have made some mistakes while trying to put a foundation on my dog by myself using a mish mash of resources.

 

Time will tell, but I think that this may be just what I have been looking for and unable to find locally.

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Maybe I'll have to turn in my working Border Collie card after this, but...

 

I ended up enrolling in the course. I was highly unsatisfied with the level of training I could find local to me. And Kenzi has been very challenging to work with in the recall/focus department. I need a rock solid recall for SAR and I have been having issues with getting one on her. I was trying what I knew to do, but something was missing. This was highly recommended by a few people on another forum, so I set aside my SG prejudice and signed up...

 

I've been impressed with it so far. It is extremely well organized. It breaks things down and explains the "why". There will be a book worth of information in PDFs by the time the course is over. There was a record keeping ebook to print out to allow you to easily keep track of what you're doing. It's 8 weeks of 5 day/week lessons.

 

It's broken down very well (good for people like who aren't naturally good at doing that) and everything builds on the previous lessons. It tell you how, why, where to do things. There is online support for training questions

 

To kind of put it into perspective - the information I'm getting from this course vs the CU book I have is like the difference between navigating a state from a state (or maybe even county) map vs a US map. Much more detailed, broken down, easier to navigate and get results from if you're a bit unfamiliar with doing those sorts of things on your own. Very specific as opposed to more generalized.

 

Cons so far for me - a few of the games are supposed to be played with more than one person, thought there are usually ideas for playing them on your own. Crate Games is a prerequisite that you don't learn about until after you register. I did my own modified version from youtube videos since I don't have the DVD

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I was actually very curious as well and almost did it. Till my pup ended up at the vet and he got the money! :(

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I have been very happy with the course so far. As said above, I think that the material is very well-organized and there seems to be a logical progression of games. The course is about more than recalls--relationship building, impulse control, and obedience. I recently commented to a friend that the course will give you all the obedience that you ever need for agility without formally training obedience. The course fills huge gaps left by the local instructors.

 

Previously, I had not considered online learning to be a viable option for dog training. Now, I'm considering taking other online courses where videos would be critiqued by some top trainers.

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Although I can't stand SG personally, she is a hell of trainer and knows how to market herself. I have heard nothing but really positive feed back about her Recall course. The only problem is that you are not supposed to share it with anyone - top secret because she doesn't anyone who doesn't pay for the course to be able to work through it.

 

The other caution is I know her crate games are part of this course. Be VERY careful how far you go with crate games. It is notorious for creating crate aggression in dogs. Susan's only solution to this is to tell you to cover your crate. Her own dogs are bad at resource guarding. I have numerous friends that have gone totally with the crate games with their last one or two dogs - ALL have major crate aggression issues, but all of their older dogs that never played crates games are just fine. I don't think ANY training done with dogs should create behaviour issues in a dog, particularly aggression.

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The other caution is I know her crate games are part of this course. Be VERY careful how far you go with crate games. It is notorious for creating crate aggression in dogs. Susan's only solution to this is to tell you to cover your crate. Her own dogs are bad at resource guarding. I have numerous friends that have gone totally with the crate games with their last one or two dogs - ALL have major crate aggression issues, but all of their older dogs that never played crates games are just fine. I don't think ANY training done with dogs should create behaviour issues in a dog, particularly aggression.

 

This is definitely an interesting consideration, and something to watch out for. I hadn't heard about crate games causing aggression/possessiveness issues... but I also don't think I know anyone that has worked crate games all the way through. Most folks I know (myself included) worked through the first few steps, got a behavior they liked, and slacked off.

 

Do you know if this is a widespread observation? Or is it something that you have only experienced locally? I would be interested to read some more, especially if someone has thoughts either on why it is the case that the crate games fostered reactivity, or ways that it could be modified to prevent reactivity.

 

Best,

Danielle

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Do you know if this is a widespread observation? Or is it something that you have only experienced locally? I would be interested to read some more, especially if someone has thoughts either on why it is the case that the crate games fostered reactivity, or ways that it could be modified to prevent reactivity.

 

Best,

Danielle

My agility friends are spread out all over the place, and I have had lots of discussion from all over North America with people about the problems with crate aggression. It was discussed on the CleanRun Yahoo list a couple of years ago. You don't need a crate to teach a rear cross, a front cross, a start line, to teach drive, etc. It is one of the best marketing ploys I have seen in a long time. She has so many people convinced that you cannot possible succeed in agility without doing her crate games, and of course, lots of us know that it just ain't so. The top handlers in the world do not use SG Crate Games.

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Do you know if this is a widespread observation? Or is it something that you have only experienced locally? I would be interested to read some more, especially if someone has thoughts either on why it is the case that the crate games fostered reactivity, or ways that it could be modified to prevent reactivity.

 

I can't say I've seen this per se. What I have run into are dogs who have gone through the program who can be calm in a crate, but the minute they are out of it, they lose all semblance of self-control.

 

But it makes logical sense. If the crate is made worth it's weight in gold in value to the dog, it stands to reason that some dogs are going to become highly possessive of it.

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Balance in everything.

 

A common example is in the beginning stages dogs don't want to release from kennel because of value in there. You need a release though, so you up the value of the release for a bit to balance the value in being in the crate and coming out.

 

I believe it's te same concept.

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I decided to take the class too & have really liked it so far.

 

I haven't known anyone who has had problems with crate games creating aggression. I've trained my last two dogs on crate games and they are both perfectly well adjusted in a crate. I used it with the first one because I had great difficulty teaching her a stay (I'd never had that problem with a dog before). When I closed the door of the crate, it just clicked for her and she totally got it. Since I had good results I did it with my next puppy from the beginning. It was a good training tool. For both the dogs I did it with, it really helped teach them some self control. But, I'm sure other people could have had different results.

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I decided to take the class too & have really liked it so far.

 

I haven't known anyone who has had problems with crate games creating aggression. I've trained my last two dogs on crate games and they are both perfectly well adjusted in a crate. I used it with the first one because I had great difficulty teaching her a stay (I'd never had that problem with a dog before). When I closed the door of the crate, it just clicked for her and she totally got it. Since I had good results I did it with my next puppy from the beginning. It was a good training tool. For both the dogs I did it with, it really helped teach them some self control. But, I'm sure other people could have had different results.

 

Are you guys using the crate games for all your agility training? The full crate games includes all the training for front crosses, rear crosses, creating drive, teaching start lines, drive from off of contacts (the dog once release is supposed to drive into their kennels and then get rewarded. I have seen some dogs hit their crate so hard it bounces 10 feet backwards), It sounds like you are doing just the first three steps or so. Her crate games encompass all aspects of agility training.

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I met her young dog swagger in Feb at a clinic. He must be just over 2 years then. No crate aggression or resource guarding from that guy... That included a lot of strange dogs going every which way around him. He did sneak out a couple times, hoping to get a Chance to work. I'm not defending her or crate games, just my observation, he seemed to be a very well adjusted youngster.

 

I think if your letting your dog develop crate aggression you cant blame the crate games. There's your dogs personality, and the training you obviously didn't do/dogs not at that level yet. You have to realise if you are creating tons of value for an object there's bound to probably be some resource guarding that will creep in. Train for that from day 1. I think the problem lies in blindly following a program like crate games. You know SG does more thn what's in the video, everyone does more than what they teach. Call it just natural dog training, what some people do unconsciously or think its so obvious they don't include it. Its up to every individual to know their dog and evaluate what you are doing periodically, if you notice a problem, stop. Correct it, get help look at where your reinforcement is coming. Maybe youdidnt train your crate games around black scruffydogs with uppy ears, and your dog doesn't like them.

 

Myself, I don't do cg for agility. Its a crate, its for downtime IMO. I find cg a great intro to crate relaxation and amazing for self control work, past that, I'm not driving a dog to a crate in an agility context. I dont need it to crate value for equipment. Drive to a target,drive to another handler, drive to a toy. My dog is a big boy and has a stand/stay for starline waits, and I'll expect any dog coming to me in the future to be grown up enough and have a start line stay way before equipment comes along, no need for the crate there. Even if i did use it for full out agility, following her things to a "T" I would never blame a program, its all on my own individual training.

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