Pet stores

[Sue R]

I think we all have come from a position of ignorance. The difference is that people like you are striving to educate yourself and make a positive difference as a result of that. Some folks are quite content to continue doing "just what they want to do" and don't really want to learn as learning will pressure them to change. "Ignorance is bliss."

[Liz P]

Everyone makes mistakes. That's ok. Refusing to learn from your mistakes, however, is not.

 

Sue, a bit OT, but my family will ONLY eat an organic, free range turkey. If you know where to look (generally buying straight from the farm) you don't have to pay that much. I think we generally spend about $75. It's like the pet store pups, the markup comes from the middle man. Pups from quality breeders may actually cost less because you are buying direct.

[Nanda & Nelson]

Thanks for bringing this up Julie. I couldn't agree more. People are so very removed from how "food" gets from point A to point B on so many levels it makes my head hurt. The same applies for how poor pups get from BYB or mill to the pet store. People who buy puppies from pet stores are the same people that think "chicken" is that "stuff you buy from the grocery store on a styrofoam tray wrapped in plastic".

 

This is true. I was a vegetarian for years, cause I do not agree with the mass-production of meat - animals being treated as objects. However, since a few months, I started eating meat again, after I moved to a city in which there is a great amount of meat available that is locally farmed. We can basically buy it right of the farm. And yes, this meat is 'more expensive', a lot of people say that they find 'organic' or 'free range' meat too expensive, but they don't understand that this is the actual value of the product. It takes money and time to raise healthy animals and to butcher them somewhat humane. Organic isn't expensive, factory raised meat is dirt cheap - because they do everything they possibly can to make it that way.

 

Over the past few years I have seen a change in attitude, where it seems that people care more about what they eat - so maybe, just maybe that people just are willing to be educated about things a little more instead of following what has been 'normal' for years. In my years of being a vegetarian, I have never told anyone to become a vegetarian because meat is 'bad'. I have just always vouched for the right treatment of animals.

 

It is not about pointing fingers and telling people that they are terrible for eating meat, buying at puppymills etc, but it is about finding a way of explaining without lecturing - and thats hard!

 

I guess there will always be a group of people who are just ignorant and simply will never change, but I also think, there is a group of people out there who are willing to learn and can make a difference.

[juliepoudrier]

Then again, I can get a truly free-range organic turkey at Christmas - which, in the size I'd buy for our gathering, would cost $150. How could anyone *normal* eat turkey that costs that much?

That seems high, but I've priced turkey poults and they cost $12+ each, so if you consider buying the poult(s) and then raising it (with feed costing $15 or more per 50-lb bag), a small farmer is either going to have to take a loss or charge way more than you'd pay for a mass produced turkey from the store (I know you know that).

 

I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine about goat cheese. She was offended at the cost of the cheese at the store and said she could produce it and sell it for less. I asked her if she planned to include any sort of pay for herself to milk the goat, make the cheese, etc., and she said no. So she'd work for free and then say that she can sell cheese more cheaply. It boggles the mind.

 

Maybe you should buy a couple poults, run them with the cattle and then slaughter at Christmas!

 

J.

[Olivia]

Kassidy,

 

Don't beat yourself up. Everyone starts somewhere and you are working to educate yourself so you won't make the same mistake again. Big difference from the masses who will happily go to the same pet store (ours here is called Puppy Zone, just sells puppies and regularly has outbreaks of distemper. Beyond heartbreaking.) or order from the same internet site and wonder why the puppy is not housetrainable or unhealthy.

 

I'll admit I did the same thing in the beginning. My first border collie is from MAH. I didn't know any better, was young, and she came across as a caring woman and she sucked me right in. Luckily, Carlie is a wonderful girl with a flawless temperament and is a great little sheepdog. Her heartbreak is that she had bad hip dysplasia at 2 years of age requiring a double FHO at 7 years old. She is still going strong at 13 years old this month and I love her but my next dogs all came from herding handlers/trainers/breeders after I found this forum and became educated.

 

My goal is to end up on a small farm where I can produce as much of what I consume as possible. Lamb definitely and a steer or two each year for personal use and to sell. Chickens for eating and egg production and veggies too. I know I can't produce everything but what I can will make me feel better. I hate going to the store and buying chicken parts wrapped in plastic but I simply can't afford $6/lb for organic chicken at the moment. I do have a friend that has laying hens and she gives me as many eggs as I want, especially in the spring and summer when they are laying like crazy, which is very nice. I guess we all do what we can and look forward to doing more as life allows.

[alligande]

I have to agree with everyone... Regarding pet stores I am lucky to live somewhere that the local animal shelter is something of a cult following, and The only pet store selling animals is Petco.. which sells as someone else put it, fish birds and varmint. Petco is the most expensive supplier on the island, I have my food shipped to me from another Rhode Island company and it is substantially cheaper... I am constantly telling people this but they keep going to the big box. The only person I know who has a pet store dog, knew better his wife has never had any animal that was not a rescue, he is the son of a vet... But he walked into the store picked up the Aussie puppy and as wife said they were not going to be separated.

 

Regarding farm animals..although I strongly believe in the human treatment of farm animals and would prefer to eat beef that has lived a decent life, I do eat meat from factory farms, I don't have a big budget and round here meat from local farms even purchased directly is very expensive... Rhode island has very strict processing laws and I believe that is the cause of the high prices. As it is I eat very little meat and I just don't have the money to pay 3 times the amount.

 

But people being divorced from the source of food is nothing new, 30+years ago I went to boarding school and on Sundays would often take a friend to my Grandmothers for lunch, and particularly in late fall when the cattle had been brought in from the fields and they were clean and fluffy, my friends would pet them and admire them, and being slightly evil I would mention we were having one for lunch... I don't think any of them had ever trully made the connection before. (It was actually a fib... My family never ate their own meat to much work to deal with, the cattle were sold wholesale) but they were raised in a good environment, my uncle to this day won't eat veal as he thinks the farming practices are horrible.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

We were eating lamb stew one evening when our young urban-Angeleno neice SUDDENLY REALIZED:

 

"Did you know this lamb?"

 

"Yup."

 

"How can you eat animals you know?"

 

"Would you rather eat a stranger?"

 

Donald McCaig

[WildFlower]

This is true. I was a vegetarian for years, cause I do not agree with the mass-production of meat - animals being treated as objects.

 

I am a vegetarian and have been for 12+ years now for the same reason that you site. I have never tried to convert anyone and I cook meat for my family and friends all the time. And when I do cook meat I always try to buy organic.

 

I have no problem with people that raise animals humanely and have them processed. I have a friend that buys a cow from a local farmer every year with 2 other families and they have it processed. I respect and admire the small farmer. I hope to have a small farm myself with chickens for eggs, vegetables, and sheep too but just for wool and training.

 

I can't afford to buy everything I eat organic - like many others have said it's about being aware and making choices that you can feel good with. For me, I buy organic produce and milk.

 

And Nanda, don't feel bad. You are learning from your past decision. That't the key.

Edited February 26, 2013 by WildFlower

[bcnewe2]

Maybe you should buy a couple poults, run them with the cattle and then slaughter at Christmas

 

Ya know I have no problem eating my lamb, I'd probably get used to eating my chickens but there was no way I could eat the turks.

 

If there was a way I could raise them and not befriend them it could work but otherwise...I just can't.

 

I'm down to 10 chickens and I just gave away the turks. Including the chickens and the turks I was going though a 50# of egg layer about every 2 weeks (not sure if I had to feed egg layer to the turks but even the scratch is expensive) Since the turks are gone I'm probably going to be able to have a bag last over a month. I feed scratch in the am and have egg layer available all day. And they scratch lasts forever cause it's just a treat.

 

So with that sort of food bill, they were very expensive non dinner birds!

[waffles]

On the idea of people being removed from their food source- a couple years ago I had some people over and had made some pumpkin bread. Someone asked what was in it... They couldn't believe pumpkin bread was mase with real pumpkin and not some flavoring. People are so used to artificial flavors that something obvious was hard to believe.

I always laugh when I see a packaged food say "contains real cheese"... Or "real chicken". As if that is something to be impressed by.

I recently had a friend ask me " don't you have to incubate the eggs before eating them?" He couldn't believe that eggs are edible just as they come out of the chicken.

[Maralynn]

People are removed from so. many. realities in life. I heard a person complaining about how expensive healthy food was once. I didn't say anything but wanted to invite them to raise some healthy food then get back to me on how to make it cheaper. Many people could afford to eat healthier if they were willing to make cuts elsewhere. IE a large starbucks latte is about the same price as a pound of humanely raised meat. Mass produced food is artificially cheap due to in part to government subsidies

[juliepoudrier]

As someone whose circumstances were severely reduced beyond my control, I understand the prohibitive cost of locally and humanely raised meats, etc. Mara, there are plenty of folks who don't shop at Starbucks, don't have cable or satellite TV, and are already living on the edge. Not everyone has pricey items to cut out in order to buy organic, etc. It would be nice if everyone did. There is certainly a segment of the population who could cut out extraneous expenses in order to afford humanely or organically raised meat and produce, but there's a much larger segment out there who are barely making ends meet, don't have many or any extras, and have no way to truly afford the healthy stuff. So it's not always so simple as cutting something elsewhere. For me, cutting something elsewhere would mean getting rid of the livestock, which are an expense that I don't make up through sales. I choose not to do that and am lucky that I can at least eat what I grow, but I still have the expense of feeding (corn at ~$13/50 lbs; multistock feeds at $11, sheep feeds at $15; round bales at $35 and squares at ~$4, minerals getting closer to $20 per bag) and caring for them (vaccines, wormer, etc.,), transporting to the butcher (gas approaching $4), and paying for butchering and packaging. Would that there was an easy answer for everyone.

 

J.

[Maralynn]

Oh I certainly understand that. I'm living on the shoestring budget and can't afford to buy much else than grocery store meat from the clearance corner right now. And when I was growing up for a few years all we had for breakfast was oatmeal because that's all we could afford. So I know that you can't always just cut back in one area. I realize now my comment sounded a bit idealistic/judgmental, but it certainly wasn't meant to be.

 

It was more a comment about society as a whole. People in this country are used convenience, goodies and gadgets are often choose those over the basics of life. Many people COULD eat better if they just bought (cheaper) real food instead of preprocessed junk food. Many people COULD afford humanely raised meat, but choose to spend the money elsewhere. IE, if you've got direct TV, regularly stop at Starbucks, etc then you could afford it. Yet those are some of the people that I hear complaining about the high cost of food. That was more what I was getting at.

[geonni banner]

It was more a comment about society as a whole. People in this country are used convenience, goodies and gadgets are often choose those over the basics of life. Many people COULD eat better if they just bought (cheaper) real food instead of preprocessed junk food. Many people COULD afford humanely raised meat, but choose to spend the money elsewhere. IE, if you've got direct TV, regularly stop at Starbucks, etc then you could afford it. Yet those are some of the people that I hear complaining about the high cost of food. That was more what I was getting at.

What she said...

 

The most common instance I can think of is cell/smart phones. People seem to regard them as a necessity. They aren't! How long ago was it that no one had one? It wasn't the end of the world.

 

Paper towels. The average household goes through 15 rolls in less than 5 months. At two bucks a pop that's $90 a year. What happened to rags? That's what I use most of the time. I use a roll of paper towels about every six months for picking up really gross stuff.

 

The list is endless. While it's true many people can barely afford to squeak by on ramen and oatmeal, many more spend a thousand dollars a year on cable.

 

OK. Sorry. I'll stop now...

[G. Festerling]

Oh, oh.... I had such a well written response till I was thrown off by the paper towel count... Really? There are people that use that few? I will admit, that is a terrible vice I have!

 

I recyle and it is not easy. Far drive for the place. I have not spend money on a drinking glass as I reuse jars. I pick and choose often by the amount of packaging. Small things can make a huge difference. I agree with the waste that is part of todays society.

 

As far as the food is concerned...I try to buy organic when I can or coop. Not always. I also hardly ever buy processed foods. Veggies frozen and canned yes. But I am talking packaged lasagne or ready to eat meals and stuff. That gets expensive. If cooking from scratch, I have found with some planning and imagination (which are both hard for me in the kitchen ) it is actually not all that bad and can go a long ways.

[juliepoudrier]

I have found with some planning and imagination (which are both hard for me in the kitchen :unsure:/> ) it is actually not all that bad and can go a long ways.

My biggest problem is a combination of planning and execution. Working two jobs and taking care of the farm leaves time at a premium, so I mostly cook in a crock pot--large amounts without a ton of time input from me. What often happens, though, is I'll plan to make something, thaw the meat and get the veggie/fruit ingredients, etc., then one interruption after another pushes back the actual cook date, sometimes to the point where I'm leery of using the meat (which I then cook for the dogs) and the veggies are getting limp (though for soups, etc., I will use stuff that's pretty old, as long as it's not brown and icky, lol!) But cooking like this, when it all works as it should, can make my food costs pennies per serving, especially if I'm using venison, which I get for free. Beans are cheap too. It's a good thing I have high tolerance for eating a lot of leftovers though!

 

My biggest money sink vice is books, and I've largely stopped buying them. The one book I bought recently was bought because someone gave me a gift certificate to Amazon. I do have a cell phone, but as a freelance writer and editor, it's very handy to be able to take work-related calls even if I'm not sitting at my desk in my house. It makes my life essentially invisible to clients, who can contact me no matter where I am, which I find to be a tremendous advantage.

 

I, too, am a paper towel user. I use rags for general stuff, but for clean up behind animals, I find paper towels more convenient. And of course since I don't own a dryer, there are times, like now, when it seems NC has been magically transplanted to the pacific NW, when getting stuff dry on a line is nearly impossible. Paper towels are very handy then.

 

J.

[G. Festerling]

Sooo off topic now but....I am starting (or planning to anyway!) to consider the type of micro waveable dishes one can buy at Sams or Restaurant supply stores.

I love, love one pot dishes. Be it casseroles or stews. Then I can split it and freeze it! Of course, I have not started just yet.....

[Kassidy]

Ugh, the other day, I noticed a new pet store. I walked in, to see what it was all about. I don't even think there was any pet supplies in there. A huge store just filled with animals. I was so disgusted I was about to walk out immediately, when I spotted something black and white in the back corner. I had to make sure. I walked up to it. I was right. In the back wall behind glass in a tiny little cage (if thats what you can call it) was 3, 8 week old border collie mix puppies. Laying there, not acting at all like any pups should, let alone border collie pups. They wouldn't even get up. Even when they saw me, they just lifted their head and looked at me, then layed back down. I asked the employee about them. He said they were border collie mixes, that he got from a responsible breeder. Yeah right! Cause, you know, responsible breeders always breed mutts! I mean really. I just walked right out. I couldn't stand to be in there any longer. Ugh, I can't believe people.

[Nanda & Nelson]

Just to give you guys an update. I reported the situation with my local SPCA, and I got a call from them yesterday. I was very impressed, they took my complaint very seriously and are checking out the store this week and will call be later to give me an update. They also said that the store is on their list as one they check frequently. Apparently, in the city of Vancouver, selling dogs in stores is not legal - but in Burnaby (located right next to Vancouver, where the mall is), it is legal. Legally, they can't do anything about it, but they do check it all the time. He said that the pups usually get sold within a few days. When I was asking what they do with the dogs when the mall is closed (on saturday to sunday for over 17 hours!!), he said they just stay in their cages. This seems absolutely horrible to me, but apparently is 'legal' because of 'bylaws' for 'stores'. It's miserable - and he agreed, but again, legally they can't do anything but check up on the store every now and then.

 

It must be hard to work for the SPCA and be held back by all these stupid laws that don't make any sense at all.

[Tommy Coyote]

Kassidy,

 

Don't beat yourself up. Everyone starts somewhere and you are working to educate yourself so you won't make the same mistake again. Big difference from the masses who will happily go to the same pet store (ours here is called Puppy Zone, just sells puppies and regularly has outbreaks of distemper. Beyond heartbreaking.) or order from the same internet site and wonder why the puppy is not housetrainable or unhealthy.

 

I'll admit I did the same thing in the beginning. My first border collie is from MAH. I didn't know any better, was young, and she came across as a caring woman and she sucked me right in. Luckily, Carlie is a wonderful girl with a flawless temperament and is a great little sheepdog. Her heartbreak is that she had bad hip dysplasia at 2 years of age requiring a double FHO at 7 years old. She is still going strong at 13 years old this month and I love her but my next dogs all came from herding handlers/trainers/breeders after I found this forum and became educated.

 

My goal is to end up on a small farm where I can produce as much of what I consume as possible. Lamb definitely and a steer or two each year for personal use and to sell. Chickens for eating and egg production and veggies too. I know I can't produce everything but what I can will make me feel better. I hate going to the store and buying chicken parts wrapped in plastic but I simply can't afford $6/lb for organic chicken at the moment. I do have a friend that has laying hens and she gives me as many eggs as I want, especially in the spring and summer when they are laying like crazy, which is very nice. I guess we all do what we can and look forward to doing more as life allows.

Yes, but: a friend of mine bought a pup for $400 from a reputable breeder of working dogs here and it has horrible dysplasia. They have to do a complete hip replacement that will cost $5,000. The breeder would not compensate her. And then they found out the breeder has done the same thing before. I think it was Sue who once said the buying a puppy is a crap shoot and that is just so true.

[Liz P]

The breeder would not compensate her. And then they found out the breeder has done the same thing before.

 

Did the breeder offer a health guarantee? Were the parents health tested? By compensate, do you mean offer a refund? (You didn't expect the breeder to pay for surgery?)

 

Pups are a genetic gamble. Unless the breeder offered a health guarantee and failed to honor it or bred a dog with a known defect, I would not hold the breeder responsible.

[geonni banner]

Did the breeder offer a health guarantee? Were the parents health tested? By compensate, do you mean offer a refund? (You didn't expect the breeder to pay for surgery?)

 

Pups are a genetic gamble. Unless the breeder offered a health guarantee and failed to honor it or bred a dog with a known defect, I would not hold the breeder responsible.

I have known breeders that would take back a pup that developed some serious problem while still under a year old. Some would offer another pup if you were willing to wait for their next litter. Some of them did treat the "defective" pup, but most simply put them down.

 

But I agree with Liz. Even the most carefully bred litters will sometimes include an individual with "a bomb." If you have not obtained papers that cover such contingencies, then the breeder has no responsibility to replace a pup or pay the pup's vet bills.

 

You can do your homework, research pedigrees and ask to see test results. But it won't guarantee anything but a live pup walking out the door. If you want more you'd better get it in writing.