Getting a dog who knows how to drop it to drop it.

[Maralynn]

I do get the need for more self control. But I think this may need a bit more than just self control. Like perhaps some games that teach "out" in drive may be more effective or needed along with teaching self control.

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

In a situation where the toy is higher value, you might need to take a variable reinforcement schedule more slowly than you would indoors.

 

You might have to start out with treating 3 out of 4 drops. Then 4 out of 5. Then 3 out of 5. Then 5 out of 6. Then 4 out of 6. Then 3 out of six. Then back up to 5 out of 6. The key with variation, and I know I forget this at times, is to remember to go back to the higher rate of reinforcement within the variable schedule to really teach the dog that the behavior (drop) is inherently reinforcing. Once you have that (and I can tell by the dog's demeanor and expression), you can quickly fade down to much less reinforcement, and start mixing in more environmental reinforcers.

 

It's worth a try. At worst, he will get some extra treats for a while (healthy, high value food like chicken might be a good idea for this), and at best, you might hit upon the solution.

 

I tried this morning with the treats-- cheese, something he doesn't get that often but loves, and he dropped it well for the trades, but at one point was just staring at it reluctantly before dropping. I stopped at this point, but I tried both ignoring him and waiting for him to drop it on his own before excitedly giving him the treat as well as trading it. This could be just because we just started it, but I will continue with it for a few days.

 

Some very good suggestions here. You can also simply stop playing and leave the park. Walk him down, leash him up and take him on a boring walk outside the park. Every time he refuses. If he doesn't want to play by your rules, he doesn't get to play period. It sounds to me like there is too much that is too entertaining in the park for him to get serious about dropping the ball on command there. He probabaly won't get his usual amount of exercise for a few days if you go this route, but you'll both survive. If he starts up not dropping again, you stop the fun again. Immediately.

 

Try training to another cue word at the park than you use at home. Approach as if it is a brand new task, which it seems to be to him.

 

And tighten things up a bit at home. Ask him to do something for you every single time he approaches you. And sometimes ignore his request to be petted or played with. Make him sit before you hook up the leash. Ask for something, anything, before he gets a treat or a meal or a potty trip. Ignore for a minute if you don't get what you asked for.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

 

I have tried just leaving the park about five times now, but it's very unsatisfying leaving so early when it's such a long trek home. It just feels like stopping all play isn't as bad a punishment as it is for me than it is for him.

 

Incidentally, I tried reinforcing Drop It last night at home, and he was able to pick up and drop everything I gave him on cue, whether it was in my hand, across the room, or even a second after him picking it up; this has worked with the ball, Frisbee, his favorite singing Santa toy, and his rope-- all things he really likes. So he definitely _knows_ the command.

 

He sleeps most of the time or keeps to himself while we're home-- any petting or playing is pretty much whenever I initiate it, but I do make him sit/down for most things, and I will ask him to do an entire routine for coveted treats (like the cheese).

 

I learned many years ago from a drug dog trainer a great method of getting a dog to release. Works great with a ball. The dog has it, slip a finger behind the ball and touch the tongue, press down a little and the mouth will pop open. I say "Thank You" just before I press and soon the dog learns to open to the cue. this is an automatic response and works grest

 

I tried this, but it didn't work-- I had to press down quite hard for him to drop it, and he never did drop it completely; just loosened his grip.

[urge to herd]

 

I have tried just leaving the park about five times now, but it's very unsatisfying leaving so early when it's such a long trek home. It just feels like stopping all play isn't as bad a punishment as it is for me than it is for him.

 

He sleeps most of the time or keeps to himself while we're home-- any petting or playing is pretty much whenever I initiate it, but I do make him sit/down for most things, and I will ask him to do an entire routine for coveted treats (like the cheese).

 

 

Okay, did you consistently leave the park EVERY TIME he didn't drop when you asked him to? Did you leash him up without saying a word and leave immediately? If not, he's not getting the clear message that it's a requirement, not an option.

 

Yes, it does feel like a waste of time and a disappointment to you. If your feelings are more important than his behavior at the park, then you'll be fine. I don't say that to be snarky, it's a legitimate question and either answer is absolutely okay. And I say this from the perspective of taking 3 border collies to a dog park morning and evening for many years. There were a few things I just didn't want to deal with in a consistent and meaningful way for the dog to get it. The ones that weren't dangerous weren't a big deal. The one that was dangerous, (Buzz was a real butt head to other dogs,) made me choose my dog park times very carefully.

 

If you want some more ideas, I have a few. If it's not that big a deal, then don't worry. And to repeat, because he knows 'drop it' at home does not mean he knows it anywhere else. I just taught Gibbs to spin a couple days ago, while we were out on an off leash walk. He got it very quickly. At home I fed him dinner, then asked for a spin just the way I'd asked for it on our walk. He looked at me with his 'What the heck?' look. He had no idea what I wanted him to do.

 

Good luck,

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

Okay, did you consistently leave the park EVERY TIME he didn't drop when you asked him to? Did you leash him up without saying a word and leave immediately? If not, he's not getting the clear message that it's a requirement, not an option.

 

Yes, it does feel like a waste of time and a disappointment to you. If your feelings are more important than his behavior at the park, then you'll be fine. I don't say that to be snarky, it's a legitimate question and either answer is absolutely okay. And I say this from the perspective of taking 3 border collies to a dog park morning and evening for many years. There were a few things I just didn't want to deal with in a consistent and meaningful way for the dog to get it. The ones that weren't dangerous weren't a big deal. The one that was dangerous, (Buzz was a real butt head to other dogs,) made me choose my dog park times very carefully.

 

If you want some more ideas, I have a few. If it's not that big a deal, then don't worry. And to repeat, because he knows 'drop it' at home does not mean he knows it anywhere else. I just taught Gibbs to spin a couple days ago, while we were out on an off leash walk. He got it very quickly. At home I fed him dinner, then asked for a spin just the way I'd asked for it on our walk. He looked at me with his 'What the heck?' look. He had no idea what I wanted him to do.

 

Good luck,

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

 

 

No, please, more ideas would be very helpful. I know you're not being snarky or even holier-than-thou about it, and I do want it to change. We tried the leash up and walk out the park awhile back, so I don't remember exactly what I did, but I could guess I was inconsistent about it-- maybe I leashed him off and walked off correctly one time, and did something inconsistent another (like stop and talk to somebody). I will try again in a day or two once I see that the luring isn't being effective.

 

When I leash him up and walk away, should I walk at a brisk pace? Should we go straight home, or just walk around the park and come back inside? Caleb has a habit of slinking down as low to the ground as possible when he knows he's in trouble, which transfer to the leash and ends up making me drag a 40lb dog. Any suggestions to avoid this as I do foresee him feeling bad about being leashed up and taken away?

 

 

Again, thank you for all your help thus far. It's clear I have so much to learn still about reading behaviors and acting appropriately.

 

p.s.: this has been bugging me for the longest time, but while walking, on or off leash, he will periodically nudge my hand, arm, or leg with his nose very gently. I wonder what this means?

[Root Beer]

Christine can you further explain how you would use CU games to teach drop it? I can certainly see the value of those in several situations but I'm not quite getting how they'd be really effective with drop it. I agree it can be taught in a motivational way but just not getting the how CU really fits in.

 

First, Kristine, not Christine. I know - a mistake, but I'm a stickler about it.

 

Just to clarify, too, what I said was:

 

The Doggie Zen game can also help, indirectly, with the "drop" behavior, also.

 

So, I'm not saying that one would use LAT or GMAB or something like that to teach a drop.

 

However, while Doggie Zen is not strictly a CU Game (I first learned it through Sue Ailsby's Levels), Leslie does include it in the book, and it is the very first exercise I teach in my CU classes as the foundation for all self-control.

 

The concept taught through Doggie Zen is: There are times when choosing to give something up is actually the way to get it.

 

And while this starts, typically, with treats, I do play this with my dogs who have a preference for holding a ball (or whatever toy) rather than drop it or give it up. Once the dog knows Doggie Zen with food, I would give the ball to the dog, but keep my hand on it. So, the ball is in the dog's mouth, but I am still holding on to it. Then, I would wait. If the dog tugs, I just ignore it (and not tug back). The second the dog starts to release, I would either hand it back, but take my hand off of it, or perhaps throw it if the dog liked to chase.

 

I would continue this until the dog was giving it up readily, and then I would put either a "drop" (to the floor) or "give" (to the hand) cue on it. With Dean I did both, so I can cue him to drop something or give it to me.

 

So, again, this is an application, and it is indirect. But I definitely consider applications of Doggie Zen as falling under the CU umbrella.

 

Even more than the process that I describe with the toy itself, that foundation of self-control is always beneficial, I believe, when teaching a dog to readily give up something that he wants.

[Root Beer]

I tried this morning with the treats-- cheese, something he doesn't get that often but loves, and he dropped it well for the trades, but at one point was just staring at it reluctantly before dropping. I stopped at this point, but I tried both ignoring him and waiting for him to drop it on his own before excitedly giving him the treat as well as trading it. This could be just because we just started it, but I will continue with it for a few days.

 

I would start out with only a few reps, and try to quit before he gets a chance to think too much. Later he will be able to think it through and come to the right conclusion, but right now it might be confusing if he gets too much in his head over this.

 

At this point if he gets to where he is staring at it before dropping, I would simply hold it as close to his nose as possible, and wait him out. Then I would quit for the session. He will get the idea, but it may take some time.

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

So Caleb and I have been continuing with the suggestions-- he's dropping it on his own a lot more now (and sometimes will just walk up to me and drop it at my feet like I want him to), but he still goes back to fighting for it sometimes, but that's okay; we're getting somewhere.

 

Something I've noticed that works with him is covering his eyes and just sitting down. He usually drops it in about a minute or so, but he doesn't like it, so I only have to do it a few times in a play session before he doesn't try it anymore.

 

Incidentally, would anybody know of a CU trainer in NYC? I would be very interested in attending classes with Caleb. If not, just a trainer that you could suggest would be very helpful.

[Root Beer]

Incidentally, would anybody know of a CU trainer in NYC? I would be very interested in attending classes with Caleb. If not, just a trainer that you could suggest would be very helpful.

 

There has to be someone in NYC, but I don't know of anyone personally.

 

Are you familiar with Yahoo lists? There is a CU Yahoo list, and you could ask for a reference on there.

 

If you aren't, I can ask on your behalf, but it would be more direct for you to do it.

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

There has to be someone in NYC, but I don't know of anyone personally.

 

Are you familiar with Yahoo lists? There is a CU Yahoo list, and you could ask for a reference on there.

 

If you aren't, I can ask on your behalf, but it would be more direct for you to do it.

 

I unfortunately am not familiar. I don't think I've ever had a Yahoo account, either.

Would it be too much trouble for you? If not, I would be grateful. I could try and ask myself if you think that would be best though.

 

On an unrelated note, when Caleb refused to drop the ball suddenly today, I just leashed him up and walked home. When I got home, I thought about taking him to the playground near my house to try improving on Drop It outside with his clicker, and wouldn't you know it, I had the exact same results I did while inside. I don't know if this is because he knew I was upset with him for not dropping it, if he saw that I brought the clicker/treats with me, if this is less stimulating, or what, but he dropped it outside.

[Maralynn]

Now that I'm actually on a computer instead of my phone I'll post some thoughts of my own (and hopefully won't make any more typo's either)

 

Why not just play 2 ball with him?

 

I have a hoarder. She loves to have toys. She will pick up two balls in her mouth at once, if she sees an extra frisbee laying on the ground pounces on top of it so my other dog can't get it. She's had 3 frisbees in her mouth at once before. She LOVES having the object. So I play 2 ball (I have a second and she gets it thrown by bringing the first). It works for her.

 

When I first started, she'd go into hoarding mode and I made the ball I had the. best one. ever. bounce it on the ground, have a party with it, etc. I put no pressure on her to give up her very valuable ball, just ignored her and tried to make mine more valuable. It worked really well for her - she'd soon be over at me with a "I want that one" look on her face and would soon spit the first one out in favor of the one I had. She would have fought me all day long or happily laid there with it for forever if I hadn't had a *better* ball. I doubt getting up and leaving would have made any real impression on her either - she would have just been like "oh, we're doing something else now".

 

The second thing - just because he'll drop it all day long at home, doesn't mean that he knows the command in context of the park. Dogs don't generalize well. Have you tried just going down there with the basket full of toys and practiced "drop"? I would try practicing "drop" with other objects at the park and see how he does.

[Root Beer]

I unfortunately am not familiar. I don't think I've ever had a Yahoo account, either.

Would it be too much trouble for you? If not, I would be grateful. I could try and ask myself if you think that would be best though.

 

Yes, I can.

 

On an unrelated note, when Caleb refused to drop the ball suddenly today, I just leashed him up and walked home. When I got home, I thought about taking him to the playground near my house to try improving on Drop It outside with his clicker, and wouldn't you know it, I had the exact same results I did while inside. I don't know if this is because he knew I was upset with him for not dropping it, if he saw that I brought the clicker/treats with me, if this is less stimulating, or what, but he dropped it outside.

 

Based on what you describe, I suspect that stimulation is at the root of the difference between the two scenarios. The value of the toy, coupled with the excitement of the park can make the context very different, even from your own yard. And the park may well be far more stimulating.