Getting a dog who knows how to drop it to drop it.

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

Hey shepherds,

 

I was a bit hesitant in asking this as it seemed quite trivial in comparison to a lot of other threads here, but I'm not really sure what else to do other than getting professional help at this point.

 

My BC Caleb is really good most of the time and is eager to please, but when we're outside, he doesn't quite listen as well as he does inside, but it's particularly difficult when we're playing fetch. Inside, if I ask him to drop it, he'll drop whatever it is he has in his mouth, but while playing fetch outside, he'll hold onto it (quite firmly), will even avoid my hand if I reach for the ball/whatever is in his mouth. He would never snap or bite me, but it's quite frustrating that I need to wrestle it out of his mouth while holding his collar in place. He thinks we're playing tug or something.

 

I've tried luring him by offering a treat in return (cheese, his favorite), but he pretty much wouldn't drop it unless he sees/smells the cheese. He's trained using the clicker, and I can often phase out the treat and he'll still do what I ask indoors, but he won't budge with this. I've tried clicking and treating for him dropping it on his own, but it happens maybe once a week. I've also tried waiting him out when he refuses to drop it-- turning my back on him and completely ignoring him, but this took about 20 minutes before he dropped it on his own, and I think that was only because he saw some other dog in the park. I've tried being firm about it, and I've tried taking the fun away when he won't listen, but I'm out of ideas on how to get him to drop it gently on his own.

 

On an unrelated question, I recently bought a undercoat rake (the Oster knock-off), and was curious as to how often I would be able to use it. Caleb has very fine and silky hair, but a bit on the thick side. It helped immensely the first time, but it doesn't seem like a every day or even every week brush according to what I've read about it.

 

 

Thanks in advance for all your help. I apologize again for such a trivial topic.

[geonni banner]

dons flame-retardant suit...

 

I use an ear-pinch for that. Mouth flies open, ball falls into your waiting hand. Pinch should be paired with "drop" command. Praise and immediately throw the ball again.

 

For the rest of that day and a few more, I don't give a "drop" command unless I'm in the position to deliver a pinch. Never had it fail to quickly break a dog of ball-hogging. Some extrapolate to dropping other things as well, some need further illustration.

 

OK, flame away!

[jvw]

To me if the dog won't drop the toy the game is over. I move on.

 

If we are not playing and it is something else I don't want in the mouth and they won't drop it I physically remove it from the mouth. But I'm not opposed to an ear pinch either.

 

Jennifer

[mum24dog]

To me if the dog won't drop the toy the game is over. I move on.

 

Jennifer

 

This.

 

He's getting attention by trying to force him to release it and that will be rewarding to him.

 

No need to hurt him, just refuse to play. Clearly he hasn't generalised drop that he does in the house to drop in other places.

 

I can't see the problem with him keeping it until he gets bored with it however long it takes - no skin off my nose if I don't have to keep throwing the darned thing getting dog slobber all over my hands. I don't get into battles with my dogs unless absolutely necessary and ball hogging wouldn't be one of those times. I know the OP says she has tried ignoring him but my guess would be hat he still knows it's a big deal for her.

 

Having said that, I've never had a dog that has not released whatever it has when asked (well apart from Hazel and a baby rabbit one time). It's something we work on from day 1, starting with something of low value and working up to an instant release when frantically playing tug. The trick is to relax your hold completely when asking for the release (but not let go) - no tension at all. Any pressure will encourage the dog to hold on.

 

I have no desire to inflict pain on my dogs, especially over something that doesn't matter to me. They are all obedient when I need them to be which is all I ask of them.

[Root Beer]

Have you tried trading toys with him? I know some dogs won't do this, preferring the one already in mouth, but some trade up nicely. That can be a good way to strengthen the "drop" cue in such a situation.

 

However, you do say that he drops the toy outside if you actually put food on his nose. I would probably capitalize on that. I would say "drop", and put the treat right in his face. Yes - I lure. It works and I have never had a problem fading a lure so I don't need it to get the behavior, once learning has actually taken place on the dog's part.

 

I would repeat that many times until I saw him starting to anticipate that treat. Then I would use a hand held out toward him (almost like a "stop" gesture) as a physical cue (along with the verbal) and start to reinforce variably.

[Murray Momma]

Murray has the same issue (even with rolling the upper lip on a tooth to prompt his mouth to open - I've never done an ear pinch). What a ball (stuffed toy/tug toy) hog! If he knows a high value treat is involved, he is all over the "drop it." If not, it's a no go. I'm going to keep this one on my watch list as I know GoodbyeHalcyonDays is too!

[rushdoggie]

There's a couple of things:

 

One is that for some dogs they get a little weird/obsessed about a certain toy and that toy becomes an issue. My Pap is that way about his rubber frisbee. He will drop the cloth one, the ball, a toy, his bone, but his eyes glazed over on that rubber thing. The fact that you can't wait him out tells me that there is a certain obsessiveness going on here.

 

So, if its a certain type of toy (ball) I would go with another toy to work on the drop.

 

Another is to actively train a good drop or out away from the excitement of ball play in the park and get much better stimulus control over it. Then move on to playing "give/out" with the ball by doing it in exciting environment without throwing it, then build up to throwing it.

 

Third is what was already said: refusal to play by the rules (once you have worked on those rules for a bit) means game over. I walk away. Keep him on a long line so he can't run off an entertain himself with it too.

 

Fourth is you can consider a trade. With my Pap I wanted to use that rubber frisbee when we play in the wet fields without having to make every (limited due to early dusk) exercise session a training session or a battle. So I bought another one. When he gets back with the first I show him the second, the first drops out of his mouth and I throw the second. Its management, but it worked for us. His drop is pretty good now, but now and then I just use two to keep it fun.

 

Yes, you could ear pinch and for some dogs it would work, but for some you would get a dog that learned to play duck the head and avoid letting your hands touch him. I am not 100% "positive" but I am reluctant to ever use my hands on a dogs head or face and cause pain as a part of training. My hands reaching for you will always mean safety and nothing to fear avoid. If I grab for a collar quickly for safety I want no instinctive ducking.

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

To me if the dog won't drop the toy the game is over. I move on.

 

If we are not playing and it is something else I don't want in the mouth and they won't drop it I physically remove it from the mouth. But I'm not opposed to an ear pinch either.

 

Jennifer

 

I have actually tried taking the ball away and ending the play session, but he seems to not care about it as well. A friend of mine had advised me to end it on a good note-- when he drops the ball of his own volition, to "save" that, but that hasn't worked either. At one point he dropped the ball when I blew air onto his nose-- he doesn't like that-- but that doesn't work so much anymore.

 

 

This.

 

He's getting attention by trying to force him to release it and that will be rewarding to him.

 

No need to hurt him, just refuse to play. Clearly he hasn't generalised drop that he does in the house to drop in other places.

 

I can't see the problem with him keeping it until he gets bored with it however long it takes - no skin off my nose if I don't have to keep throwing the darned thing getting dog slobber all over my hands. I don't get into battles with my dogs unless absolutely necessary and ball hogging wouldn't be one of those times. I know the OP says she has tried ignoring him but my guess would be hat he still knows it's a big deal for her.

 

Having said that, I've never had a dog that has not released whatever it has when asked (well apart from Hazel and a baby rabbit one time). It's something we work on from day 1, starting with something of low value and working up to an instant release when frantically playing tug. The trick is to relax your hold completely when asking for the release (but not let go) - no tension at all. Any pressure will encourage the dog to hold on.

 

I have no desire to inflict pain on my dogs, especially over something that doesn't matter to me. They are all obedient when I need them to be which is all I ask of them.

 

I had never thought about it, but you are right-- when I'm ignoring him, I may still be giving him signals that it's still a big deal to me. I'll try just letting him hold onto it, but walking around for a bit if/until he drops the ball and capturing that.

 

Even when we're playing tug in the house and I ask him to drop it, there's sometimes a slight hesitation or moment of him tugging at it before he finally drops it. Thank you for that tip though.

 

 

Have you tried trading toys with him? I know some dogs won't do this, preferring the one already in mouth, but some trade up nicely. That can be a good way to strengthen the "drop" cue in such a situation.

 

However, you do say that he drops the toy outside if you actually put food on his nose. I would probably capitalize on that. I would say "drop", and put the treat right in his face. Yes - I lure. It works and I have never had a problem fading a lure so I don't need it to get the behavior, once learning has actually taken place on the dog's part.

 

I would repeat that many times until I saw him starting to anticipate that treat. Then I would use a hand held out toward him (almost like a "stop" gesture) as a physical cue (along with the verbal) and start to reinforce variably.

 

I carry a Frisbee with me as well when we go to the park, but if I try trading with him, he loses interest in both and just walks away. It's really weird. He'll definitely prefer the ball over the Frisbee if given the option, but not in this case.

 

I also try to fade out the treats after awhile of practicing a trick/command, and he has never had any issue with it except with this. If he hasn't yet generalized that "drop it" means to drop it whenever, could this be a "new" trick for him? I don't know if that makes sense.

 

 

I hadn't mentioned it, but for a week or so awhile ago, he dropped the ball perfectly when asked to outside. I used to have to fight tooth and nail with him to get it out (needing to swing him around at one point like he was holding onto a rope!), and that really wore me out, but he suddenly started dropping the ball at my feet at one point. It only lasted about a week before he went back to a toned-down version of the tugging/wrestling.

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

There's a couple of things:

 

One is that for some dogs they get a little weird/obsessed about a certain toy and that toy becomes an issue. My Pap is that way about his rubber frisbee. He will drop the cloth one, the ball, a toy, his bone, but his eyes glazed over on that rubber thing. The fact that you can't wait him out tells me that there is a certain obsessiveness going on here.

 

So, if its a certain type of toy (ball) I would go with another toy to work on the drop.

 

Another is to actively train a good drop or out away from the excitement of ball play in the park and get much better stimulus control over it. Then move on to playing "give/out" with the ball by doing it in exciting environment without throwing it, then build up to throwing it.

 

Third is what was already said: refusal to play by the rules (once you have worked on those rules for a bit) means game over. I walk away. Keep him on a long line so he can't run off an entertain himself with it too.

 

Fourth is you can consider a trade. With my Pap I wanted to use that rubber frisbee when we play in the wet fields without having to make every (limited due to early dusk) exercise session a training session or a battle. So I bought another one. When he gets back with the first I show him the second, the first drops out of his mouth and I throw the second. Its management, but it worked for us. His drop is pretty good now, but now and then I just use two to keep it fun.

 

Yes, you could ear pinch and for some dogs it would work, but for some you would get a dog that learned to play duck the head and avoid letting your hands touch him. I am not 100% "positive" but I am reluctant to ever use my hands on a dogs head or face and cause pain as a part of training. My hands reaching for you will always mean safety and nothing to fear avoid. If I grab for a collar quickly for safety I want no instinctive ducking.

 

It's definitely not just with the ball-- he tugs with the Frisbee as well, but because it's much harder for him to have a firm grip on it, I can get it out a lot faster than I could with the ball. I think this could be my fault, though, as when I was first teaching him to like the Frisbee, one of the games we played was tugging with it.

 

We've tried practicing the drop it with some of his least favorite and favorite toys in the house-- again, no problems whatsoever dropping it then, and I have even tried just gently rolling the ball and jackpotting him for bringing it back and dropping it, and he has no problems with this-- inside the house. However, while outside, it's pretty much fair game.

 

I initially was going to try the ear pinch, but reading your reply made me think again about it. Caleb is quite the shy/timid dog to begin with. Heck, he hardly ever wants attention from anybody but myself, and has only let maybe two other people touch him other than myself for longer than a few seconds since I got him three months ago. I am working on building his confidence, but it's a bit hard sometimes as I feel like I'm walking on egg shells. If I were to reach for his collar abruptly, he would shrink away immediately, so I'm hesitant to try it now.

[geonni banner]

I have no desire to inflict pain on my dogs, especially over something that doesn't matter to me. They are all obedient when I need them to be which is all I ask of them.

Certainly an ear-pinch isn't the only way to teach an instantaneous drop, but I'm leery of the "all positive" and trading games for teaching a "drop" for one reason. If I see my dog 20 feet away, raising her head with something dead in her mouth, I want her to drop it - now, and no matter what. A cookie or a proffered tennis ball are a poor trade for a yummy, but possibly diarrhea-inducing bit of carrion.

[Root Beer]

I also try to fade out the treats after awhile of practicing a trick/command, and he has never had any issue with it except with this. If he hasn't yet generalized that "drop it" means to drop it whenever, could this be a "new" trick for him? I don't know if that makes sense.

 

Yes, the situation can make it completely "new" to him.

 

I would treat this as a brand new behavior when outside. Start off with lots of high value treats, as if the dog has never done the exercise before. I would train from the bottom up, only starting to lower the rate of reinforcement when I see understanding in the dog's eyes.

[Root Beer]

Certainly an ear-pinch isn't the only way to teach an instantaneous drop, but I'm leery of the "all positive" and trading games for teaching a "drop" for one reason. If I see my dog 20 feet away, raising her head with something dead in her mouth, I want her to drop it - now, and no matter what. A cookie or a proffered tennis ball are a poor trade for a yummy, but possibly diarrhea-inducing bit of carrion.

 

If the dog cannot drop something at a distance, with nothing to trade present, then the training process is incomplete.

 

Trading is a technique to teach a concept. Once the concept is learned, the trade will not be necessary to get the behavior, although keeping it refreshed to a decent extent with fun trading games (on occasion) will only serve to strengthen it.

[Root Beer]

I initially was going to try the ear pinch, but reading your reply made me think again about it. Caleb is quite the shy/timid dog to begin with. Heck, he hardly ever wants attention from anybody but myself, and has only let maybe two other people touch him other than myself for longer than a few seconds since I got him three months ago. I am working on building his confidence, but it's a bit hard sometimes as I feel like I'm walking on egg shells. If I were to reach for his collar abruptly, he would shrink away immediately, so I'm hesitant to try it now.

 

I believe you are making a wise choice. And pinching is not necessary to get a fast, reliable "drop it". There are methods that work that do not utilize pain.

 

I know I make this recommendation ad nauseam, but you might want to check out Control Unleashed. The author suggests some games to help a dog learn to love being grabbed by the collar. It's a great confidence builder for a shy dog, and will help build trust between the two of you.

 

The Doggie Zen game can also help, indirectly, with the "drop" behavior, also.

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

I believe you are making a wise choice. And pinching is not necessary to get a fast, reliable "drop it". There are methods that work that do not utilize pain.

 

I know I make this recommendation ad nauseam, but you might want to check out Control Unleashed. The author suggests some games to help a dog learn to love being grabbed by the collar. It's a great confidence builder for a shy dog, and will help build trust between the two of you.

 

The Doggie Zen game can also help, indirectly, with the "drop" behavior, also.

 

I'll go ahead and order that book. I love reading to begin with, so anything I can learn for my dog is even better.

 

We were just at the park, and I was able to try a couple of things:

1) The trade-- this didn't work at all. I tried giving him the Frisbee, but he just dropped the ball for a split second before picking it back up again.

2) "My way or the highway"-- I asked him to "drop it", and if he didn't, I just walked away. This worked somewhat, as he would follow me, then drop it eventually, but it was usually because he saw another dog or something caught his attention.

3) Simply taking the ball away and just walking around/sitting down and not looking at him and trying again in 5-10 minutes. No luck again.

 

I didn't have any treats on me to try that, but I will try it tomorrow.

 

I did eventually switch over to the Frisbee, and again, the same issue. When I tried simply loosening tension and just holding onto it, he would sometimes drop it, and sometimes not. In the end, I just went back to holding onto his collar so he couldn't avert his head from my hand, and just grabbing the ball. If it makes a difference, he will tend to go into the play bow while trying to avoid my hand.

 

I have a question about the food and fading it out: Caleb learns very quickly, so I've not had an issue with it, but what if with this, he decides he won't drop it without a treat when I try to fade it out? Would I just go back to building on it more? What if he learns that if he doesn't drop it when I try to fade out the treat, I'll bring out a treat? Does this make sense? It makes sense in my head...

[rushdoggie]

We've tried practicing the drop it with some of his least favorite and favorite toys in the house-- again, no problems whatsoever dropping it then, and I have even tried just gently rolling the ball and jackpotting him for bringing it back and dropping it, and he has no problems with this-- inside the house. However, while outside, it's pretty much fair game.

 

Have you moved to say, just outside teh house as a next step, vs back to the park? How about handing him the ball vs throwing it before you ask for it back? Maybe fewer steps between the two?

 

 

1) The trade-- this didn't work at all. I tried giving him the Frisbee, but he just dropped the ball for a split second before picking it back up again.

 

did you throw the frisbee?

 

2) "My way or the highway"-- I asked him to "drop it", and if he didn't, I just walked away. This worked somewhat, as he would follow me, then drop it eventually, but it was usually because he saw another dog or something caught his attention.

 

Thats OK, as soon as he drops it "yes! Good dog!" and throw. He will figure out of he wants it thrown to drop it. To start with I don't think I'd care if he dropped it because he got distracted with something else. Its a first step.

 

3) Simply taking the ball away and just walking around/sitting down and not looking at him and trying again in 5-10 minutes.

 

What did he do while you were ignorning him?

 

Can you put Caleb on a light line that would allow him to be safe playing with the ball, but of he doesn't drop it then you can simply take up the line and walk briskly away?

 

Also, I learned this at a fascinating seminar about using play with dogs while training: the dead rabbit is less interesting than the live struggling rabbit. This person taught us to hold a toy very still to get a dog to let go, that if you pull back or wiggle it then they tend to grab it harder.

 

And yeah, if you taught him to fetch with tugging, its going to be harder to get a clean drop, but you can do it!

[alligande]

He's getting attention by trying to force him to release it and that will be rewarding to him.

 

No need to hurt him, just refuse to play. Clearly he hasn't generalised drop that he does in the house to drop in other places.

 

I can't see the problem with him keeping it until he gets bored with it however long it takes - no skin off my nose if I don't have to keep throwing the darned thing getting dog slobber all over my hands. I don't get into battles with my dogs unless absolutely necessary and ball hogging wouldn't be one of those times. I know the OP says she has tried ignoring him but my guess would be hat he still knows it's a big deal for her.

 

Having said that, I've never had a dog that has not released whatever it has when asked (well apart from Hazel and a baby rabbit one time). It's something we work on from day 1, starting with something of low value and working up to an instant release when frantically playing tug. The trick is to relax your hold completely when asking for the release (but not let go) - no tension at all. Any pressure will encourage the dog to hold on.

 

I have no desire to inflict pain on my dogs, especially over something that doesn't matter to me. They are all obedient when I need them to be which is all I ask of them.

I agree with Mum24, if you don't want to play then oh well....

A couple of things to think about as well are his level of excitement... The house is just never as exciting.

 

My dog when he was a baby would get over threshold and stop focusing and everything he knew went out the window. I spent a lot of time playing tug games with him ( I based my games on Michael Ellis shutzhund training videos) building up over time we would tug and I would ask for a release or sit or down, no response I simply froze and the tug does not move unlike with mum24 I could not relax I had to stop the tug moving entirely, as a relaxed tug just provided self entertainment!. I still play the game a lot we have fun and it is a great focus game while very stimulated.

 

The other component is a leave...l even if your dog knows drop how well does he ignore food when commanded. I think drop and leave can be used together. There are all sorts of leave it games, I think someone has already mentioned doggy zen as a starting point.

[rushdoggie]

Certainly an ear-pinch isn't the only way to teach an instantaneous drop, but I'm leery of the "all positive" and trading games for teaching a "drop" for one reason. If I see my dog 20 feet away, raising her head with something dead in her mouth, I want her to drop it - now, and no matter what. A cookie or a proffered tennis ball are a poor trade for a yummy, but possibly diarrhea-inducing bit of carrion.

 

 

And you can't ear pinch that carrion out of her mouth from 20 feet away, either. However if you train the dog to drop, regardless of what method you use, you can get that. And trading is a handy management device until you get it trained.

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

Have you moved to say, just outside teh house as a next step, vs back to the park? How about handing him the ball vs throwing it before you ask for it back? Maybe fewer steps between the two?

 

I live in Brooklyn, so places to practice this are a bit hard to find; right in front of the house is the sidewalk and busy street, and the backyard is still in shambles because of Hurricane Sandy. Even the park we go to is about a mile from where I live (I walk there twice daily to exercise Caleb). I've noticed that if I throw the ball not too far or if I drop it, he won't go for it, but I will definitely try just giving it to him (he knows a "get it" command from the Frisbee if necessary), as well as finding a place I could train with him outside that isn't over stimulated.

 

did you throw the frisbee?

 

For the trade, no-- I pretended to throw it and waved it around a bit, but that was what got him to drop the ball before picking it back up.

 

Thats OK, as soon as he drops it "yes! Good dog!" and throw. He will figure out of he wants it thrown to drop it. To start with I don't think I'd care if he dropped it because he got distracted with something else. Its a first step.

 

That's good to know! I'll try giving him treats for it tomorrow and bringing the clicker along.

I tend to pet Caleb when I'm very proud of him in addition to the praise, but he ducks my hand and goes into the play pose-- should I not bother with it?

 

What did he do while you were ignorning him?

 

When I was sitting down and enjoying the scenery, he sat down next to me and was looking around.

 

Can you put Caleb on a light line that would allow him to be safe playing with the ball, but of he doesn't drop it then you can simply take up the line and walk briskly away?

 

Also, I learned this at a fascinating seminar about using play with dogs while training: the dead rabbit is less interesting than the live struggling rabbit. This person taught us to hold a toy very still to get a dog to let go, that if you pull back or wiggle it then they tend to grab it harder.

 

And yeah, if you taught him to fetch with tugging, its going to be harder to get a clean drop, but you can do it!

 

The longest line I have is about 6 inches (it's illegal to have your dog on a line longer than that here in NYC), but when we're in the park, I just let him off leash. His breeder has taught him to automatically heel while walking, so he follows regardless of where I go. The park, for the most part, is closed off, so he won't be getting into anywhere dangerous. Would it still have the same affect if I simply leashed him up and started walking back and forth around the park until he dropped the ball?

[Root Beer]

I have a question about the food and fading it out: Caleb learns very quickly, so I've not had an issue with it, but what if with this, he decides he won't drop it without a treat when I try to fade it out? Would I just go back to building on it more? What if he learns that if he doesn't drop it when I try to fade out the treat, I'll bring out a treat? Does this make sense? It makes sense in my head...

 

In a situation where the toy is higher value, you might need to take a variable reinforcement schedule more slowly than you would indoors.

 

You might have to start out with treating 3 out of 4 drops. Then 4 out of 5. Then 3 out of 5. Then 5 out of 6. Then 4 out of 6. Then 3 out of six. Then back up to 5 out of 6. The key with variation, and I know I forget this at times, is to remember to go back to the higher rate of reinforcement within the variable schedule to really teach the dog that the behavior (drop) is inherently reinforcing. Once you have that (and I can tell by the dog's demeanor and expression), you can quickly fade down to much less reinforcement, and start mixing in more environmental reinforcers.

 

It's worth a try. At worst, he will get some extra treats for a while (healthy, high value food like chicken might be a good idea for this), and at best, you might hit upon the solution.

[rushdoggie]

For the trade, no-- I pretended to throw it and waved it around a bit, but that was what got him to drop the ball before picking it back up.

 

 

I wouldn't fake it...as soon as the ball leaves his mouth throw the frisbee

 

 

I tend to pet Caleb when I'm very proud of him in addition to the praise, but he ducks my hand and goes into the play pose-- should I not bother with it?

 

I think Caleb is telling you the answer to that question!

[urge to herd]

Some very good suggestions here. You can also simply stop playing and leave the park. Walk him down, leash him up and take him on a boring walk outside the park. Every time he refuses. If he doesn't want to play by your rules, he doesn't get to play period. It sounds to me like there is too much that is too entertaining in the park for him to get serious about dropping the ball on command there. He probabaly won't get his usual amount of exercise for a few days if you go this route, but you'll both survive. If he starts up not dropping again, you stop the fun again. Immediately.

 

Try training to another cue word at the park than you use at home. Approach as if it is a brand new task, which it seems to be to him.

 

And tighten things up a bit at home. Ask him to do something for you every single time he approaches you. And sometimes ignore his request to be petted or played with. Make him sit before you hook up the leash. Ask for something, anything, before he gets a treat or a meal or a potty trip. Ignore for a minute if you don't get what you asked for.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Pam Wolf]

I learned many years ago from a drug dog trainer a great method of getting a dog to release. Works great with a ball. The dog has it, slip a finger behind the ball and touch the tongue, press down a little and the mouth will pop open. I say "Thank You" just before I press and soon the dog learns to open to the cue. this is an automatic response and works grest

[mum24dog]

I am reluctant to ever use my hands on a dogs head or face and cause pain as a part of training. My hands reaching for you will always mean safety and nothing to fear avoid. If I grab for a collar quickly for safety I want no instinctive ducking.

 

An excellent point.

[Maralynn]

Christine can you further explain how you would use CU games to teach drop it? I can certainly see the value of those in several situations but I'm not quite getting how they'd be really effective with drop it. I agree it can be taught in a motivational way but just not getting the how CU really fits in.

[alligande]

Maralynn, obviously I am not Christine but I would say that basically CU games teach self control, and fundamentally from her description the OPs dog is very excited and enjoying the game on his terms and all the indoor training gets forgotten because he is not able to focus well when excited.