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Christina,

I am surprised you are both shocked and upset by responses from some very knowledgable people. You have been a member of this board for almost 3 years and like me you must have come to know that philosophy that drives the people who are actively involved with the breed. Anytime a question about breeding comes up the responses are always the same, to think that you would get something different means you have not taken to heart the dedication these same people feel about preserving the working border collie.

 

You are going to find differences of opinion on these boards about many things, but one strand that holds true is a dog should only be bred because it is a great working dog and for absolutely no other reason.... Your first post which I read before you edited was like a red flag at a bull fight..

 

I have not ever used my dogs to move livestock they are family pets and sports partners but what I adore about the breed is their innate characteristics that come from being a sheepdog, I learned as a kid in Yorkshire that it did not matter what the dog looked like as long as it did its job and I am glad there are many people here that live and breed by that philosophy.

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I have already said I want a dog from Patrick Shannahan. Unless he is yet another "puppymill clever disgusted as a reputable working dog breeder who trials his dogs but doesn't trial them enough for the elitist members of this forum"?

 

I'm sorry, but good grief....

 

Your statement above really demonstrates how little you know about the world of working border collies.

 

Pat Shannahan is arguably one of the best handlers and trainers in the country. He competes at the highest level in USBCHA trials and was the National Champion in 2010.

 

And I don't think that he produces mass quantities of puppies.

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I'm going to quote a friend of mine because she said it oh so perfectly:

 

 

 

Either stick around and have a conversation or don't say anything at all. Stepping in to drop a line like "puppy mill" and then skipping out again is childish.

 

Well, this is the first time I'm weighing in -- a kennel that has upwards of 40 puppies a year is irresponsible. I saw an ad in the paper on Sunday for BC pups, ready to go. Probably a few lucky girls will be receiving a cute, cuddly puppy for Valentine's Day and by Easter, they'll be kicking it out the door. Every day I drive by a neglected BC chained out in all kinds of weather - it breaks my heart that by the standards of Animal Control, the dog's basic needs are being met. I can't see how, but that's another thread...

 

Christina, you have stated that you agree the purpose of breeding is to maintain the wonderful characteristics of the working Border Collie. The breeder you mentioned clearly does not breed working dogs. Having that many pups a year without much regard for the substance of what a Border Collie is damages the breed. Sending a link to their website to someone interested in purchasing and then shrugging "Not my decision" is passive endorsement.

 

I have a red BC (neutered)from working lines. No one bred him for color and it was a complete surprise when this beautiful red tri popped out - and yes, he works. He has brought me to so many new places. I've been around Border Collies all my life -working dogs when I was too young to understand their ability and later rescue dogs. These last four years have taught me that I never even scratched the surface of understanding them.

 

To me, wanting a Patrick Shanahan - or any other top dog progeny to start a breeding program is like shopping for a Ferrari before you learn to drive. Yes, you want the best - but can you handle it? Are you interested in trialing? Farming? Do you have land? Do you have sheep or some other kind of livestock? Do you have access to a trainer in your area? Any ideas of how expensive it is to raise and train a quality BC? It's not quite on par with sending a kid to college, but it can run into money. Are you patient? It takes time to learn to work with a dog on livestock. You need to learn how to understand the dog and the stock. I thought I knew both - I hadn't the first clue about a working dog.

 

Here's just one little example: Yesterday I made another mistake. Robin is very solid on his "That will do" command and when I called him out of the pen after setting out grain, he wouldn't come. I literally had to drag him out. I thought wow, has he gotten rusty over the winter! The next time we went in, I realized that he was having a battle of wills with my little Miss Dickens and I had dragged him off the field before he had settled it. This time I listened to him. Once his mastery over her was once again established he came willingly. And he is forgiving.

 

Here's another generalization to chew on: AKC folks speak of "Getting into the breed" or doing things "for the love of the breed." Border Collie folks are motivated by the love of the dog.

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Never argue with someone young and/or in their twenties, they are always "right". Let the life teach them...it always happens and usually the hard way, then they learn something, if they have any brains.

Unfortunately, it's likely that there will be *dogs* (and probably plenty of them) who will pay the price for the willfully ignorant learning the hard way. But you're right that at this point we're mostly wasting our figurative breath.

 

J.

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Christina, the fact is that the best breeders of working dogs almost never breed large quantities of puppies. Paradoxically, our best breeders are not "breeders," in the sense of focusing on producing and selling puppies, having a full inventory, advertising widely to the general public, etc. If nothing else, they and their dogs are too busy doing other things -- working, training, trialing. Thus, if you see someone who IS a producer of puppies on a large scale, it is some indication of whether or not they are a top-quality working breeder. This is information that you, as a relative newcomer to working dogs, might want to have. I think this is the reason people made reference to quantity of pups bred, rather than because they are AR fanatics or dupes of the same.

 

This thread has now gone so far off-topic and become so acrimonious that I am going to close it now. You have shown an eagerness -- both in this thread and at least one other -- to turn the conversation to breeding legislation and animal rights. If you would like to pursue that topic, please start another thread. You may use your post #164 as the basis of it if you wish. In that thread, please don't direct insults at other participants in the discussion. While "elitist" is not a legally defined term (and therefore, by your friend's logic, i guess elitists do not exist), it was obviously intended as an insult. I will remind everyone else to refrain from insults as well.

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