Searching for a foundation bitch?

[Christina]

Sorry I've been neglecting to reply to this thread. Busy week!

 

So I had a talk with my partner and he has decided to get a BC earlier than previously planned.

 

I have been looking at breeders for years and finally came across one I liked awhile back. I managed to locate her again and we called her yesterday to talk to her about purchasing a dog.

 

The plan is to purchase a bitch- red because that is his preference- and work on her foundation training until she is old enough to be sent out for stock work training.

 

From what I've read, this seems like the best course of action if both of us want to learn more about working stock and handling a working dog.

 

We will also both be attending the trial at Carol Campion's on the 23rd of February if it isn't canceled.

 

Thank you all for your responses. We're both still learning and have a long road ahead of us but we are passionate about the breed and want to do what is best.

[Christina]

I should add that I'm not working my dogs now because one won't turn on to sheep and the other has a bad hip.

[mum24dog]

I have been looking at breeders for years and finally came across one I liked awhile back.I managed to locate her again and we called her yesterday to talk to her about purchasing a dog.

 

How can you be sure that you aren't looking at another breeder with the wrong priorities? You did ask about a couple that raised red flags so I wonder if you are looking for the right things.

 

And you are still focussing on colour. Your partner wants a red dog without even seeing any pups. Has he read this thread? Others have told you that they too have aesthetic preferences but are open minded enough to put them aside for a good dog - and then they learn to love that different dog too.

 

The plan is to purchase a bitch- red because that is his preference- and work on her foundation training until she is old enough to be sent out for stock work training.

 

From what I've read, this seems like the best course of action if both of us want to learn more about working stock and handling a working dog.

 

I wouldn't say so. The best course of action would be first to go to some trials and talk to lots of people before you consider where to look for a dog. Take up the offer that was made to meet up with you. Take advice on likely breeders from those with experience rather than your own investigation presumably based on what breeders say about themselves.

 

Then start thinking about getting a dog of your own.

[juliepoudrier]

Pam,

You can rest assured that with color being the main criterion the breeder's priorities beyond that don't matter greatly.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Pam,

You can rest assured that with color being the main criterion the breeder's priorities beyond that don't matter greatly.

 

J.

And especially if you've found a breeder who is quite happy to sell you just what color you are looking for, and probably encourage your planned breeding program as well. And even help market the pups, most likely...

[mum24dog]

Pam,

You can rest assured that with color being the main criterion the breeder's priorities beyond that don't matter greatly.

 

J.

 

To be fair, we don't know anything about this breeder and colour may not figure in their breeding decisions, but I would like to think that a responsible working breeder would have reservations about selling to someone for whom colour was important.

 

I can imagine a scenario where I might ask about the coat, colour, build of pups in a litter out of interest, but only after talking about the important things with the breeder and hopefully impressing on them that whatever the answer was it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

 

I wouldn't be enquiring about a litter where colour was even mentioned in advertising.

[Christina]

Attend trials...we're planning to. I've only talked to the breeder and the litter we are looking at will not be bred for another few months. If we find something that works better for us, we'll go with that. In the end this is his puppy, his choice, and he has seen this thread.

 

It is not a crime to ask for a red puppy. If the dog doesn't end up working up to standard it will not be bred. It may not even be bred anyway. Since it isn't even born yet I have no idea whether we will breed it or not. Seems you should just the individual dog on whether it is breeding quality, no?

 

The dam of the litter has placed and won in multiple USBCHA trials.

 

The breeder in question is a working breeder who, so far as I can tell, has a good reputation. Please, for the love of God, stop jumping all over every little thing I say.

[Christina]

I'm utterly astonished at how much judgement is being passed on a breeder I have not even mentioned by name.

[Journey]

Seems you should just the individual dog on whether it is breeding quality.

 

Did you mean *judge*? If so, why can't you see the point everyone is talking about? Your looking for a *red* dog....not the whole package *and* for breeding purposes.

[puppytoes]

I am not sure from your post whether you have actually talked to the breeder about wanting a red female pup. If you have, I am wondering how the breeder even knows that the litter will produce a red female puppy. From my understanding, great working red dogs are not the most common and red is recessive so... she must be breeding 2 red dogs together in order to anticipate red puppies. From what all of the very knowledgable people here have been saying, it seems that colour is being considered in this breeding, most likely ahead of working ability.

[Christina]

Did you mean *judge*? If so, why can't you see the point everyone is talking about? Your looking for a *red* dog....not the whole package *and* for breeding purposes.

 

Yes I meant judge. I *get* what everyone is saying and I see the point. Nobody has said this dog is going to be bred! But we ARE looking for the whole package. Working potential, good lines, and RED. And it's "you're" not "your".

 

I am not sure from your post whether you have actually talked to the breeder about wanting a red female pup. If you have, I am wondering how the breeder even knows that the litter will produce a red female puppy. From my understanding, great working red dogs are not the most common and red is recessive so... she must be breeding 2 red dogs together in order to anticipate red puppies. From what all of the very knowledgable people here have been saying, it seems that colour is being considered in this breeding, most likely ahead of working ability.

 

Red is recessive. The sire is red and the dam is black but she carries red, a fact that is known because she produced red puppies in the past. The breeder has four litters planned this year, three of which will not produce red. It doesn't seem like she's breeding for color if that's the case.

[olivehill]

Is the sire also a successful open dog?

[Christina]

I'm waiting for more info on the sire.

[Laurae]

The breeder has four litters planned this year

 

Hmm.

[WildFlower]

The breeder has four litters planned this year, three of which will not produce red. It doesn't seem like she's breeding for color if that's the case.

 

 

Having 4 litters planned this year is a lot of puppies..... Too many in my opinion.

[Debbie Meier]

Personally, if I didn't know the breeder myself nor had seen them trial, I would check the usbcha.com website to verify that they actually have points. I would also do a google search to determine if anyone else has dogs out of the bitch or related to the bitch and see what their accomplishments are.

 

Honestly, 4 planned litters is a red flag to me, I would want to look a little deeper into the breeders breeding program, are they actually developing a line of dogs and who have they been selling their pups to, ranchers, trialers, other performance homes? How many do they keep for themselves? With that many planned litters I would expect to find success stories not only from a trial front but also directly related dogs and offspring that has gone to produce well accomplished dogs for other people.

 

These are all questions not made in an effort to discredit anyone that breeds but rather questions that I ask that help me determine if even a average pup from that litter, let alone the highest quality pup if I was to be lucky enough to end up with would even suit my needs basic needs of being a dog that will be good enough to handle livestock to the level acceptable of being an open level dog regardless of if they are ever trialed or simply expected to be able to properly handle and relate to livestock both in vast and tight areas and also in both large and small numbers along with being able to work for the handler and not only for themselves.

[juliepoudrier]

The working border collie world is pretty small, so it's not difficult to make educated guesses. Many so-called working breeders will get them out just enough to make claims about working ability and then "retire" them to breeding purposes, so you never know if they would have held up or been successful over time. There is a difference, say, between qualifying for the nursery finals and actually competing there, or qualifying for the nursery finals and later also making it to the finals in open. If you (the general puppy-buying you) don't know what various accolades really mean, then it's easy enough to misunderstand them or be impressed by the not so impressive.

 

Also, I think I'd ask any breeder for more information on *pups* (from similar crosses or different) that have gone into working and trialing homes and what sort of success they have had. But then again, I'm not the one buying a puppy. Lots of people breed from working lines or even talented dogs, but what really counts is whether those breeding dogs are also *producing* dogs that can succeed at stockwork, and most puppy buyers never even ask that question.

 

ETA: Regarding four litters per year, there are also breeders who have "partners" ("partner farms" and similar) so that the individual's number of litters looks smaller than it really is, but they actually either completely or partly control the litters at the partner locations as well.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Hey, folks, let's consider a time-out here. The breeder Christina and her partner are dealing with may be one of the best breeders in the country, or one of the worst, but (1) Christina knows that people would be happy to give her guidance re breeders, (2) she has made it pretty clear that she doesn't want guidance re breeders here, (3) she does not want to disclose who the chosen breeder is, and (4) none of us know who the chosen breeder is. And we are told that it's Christina's partner who is buying the dog, not Christina. All that being the case, is there really anything positive to be gained by posting further at this point?

[Christina]

http://www.thompsonsbordercollies.com

 

Most of her dogs are trial winners from what I can see.

 

And four litters a year is NOT a red flag. That is an ethical debate that I am more than willing to have as most people with an ounce of common sense should realize that the amount of puppies one produces says absolutely NOTHING about their breeding program or the dogs they choose to breed. There is nothing wrong with breeding and selling an entire litter. That is the elitist delusion.

[Christina]

Sorry Eileen, I posted that at the same time as you. And you're right. This isn't my dog and isn't my choice. I want a Red Top dog. But I can't buy one right now.

[juliepoudrier]

I am taking Eileen's advice and walking away.

 

J.

[Sue R]

I'll join you, Julie. I don't think there's anything to be gained here.

 

PS - Red Top is highly respected.

[Christina]

Interesting.

 

I was waiting for the "epilepsy in the lines!" "produces dogs that run agility" "works with people I don't like" storm.

 

If anybody would like to give me their two cents via PM on this particular breeder, I will not argue with you. I want my partner to make an informed choice- of course I do. But like I said before- this is NOT MY CHOICE.

[G. Festerling]

Christina, I have dabbled in this breed for 20+ years.

I just now slipped while talking to my mom about my new pup (6 months) and her question was "is she pretty?". I told her no.

Not in the traditional sense anyway. Not just that, but she is smooth coated with the largest prick ears and longest skinniest tail I have ever seen. The only thing she has in common visually with some of my others is that she is a tri. YET, to me, she is one of the most perfect dogs for me, so far. I waited for quite a few years for her.

All the pups out of her mom are gone when born. Never mind what sire. And in those years not just have I watched her mom trial and drooled but also the pups. Is my girl going to follow in those footsteps? I hope so. The first times on stock have been very nice.

This is the second time I waited for a pup out of a specific bitch that I fell in love with watching. The first was an ugly little bitch and the pup (my Belle) is certainly no beauty. Yet she has never quit me working and endured all of my blunders with grace.

I got help from a male dog that came with some training for the first time that I have played with these dogs. And I have always used my dogs one silly way working or the other. I can not begin to even describe how much my boy has helped me. It is a journey. A long, wonderful, rewarding yet often frustrating one. What about trying to find a dog with some training? To learn. To see if this is what your partner wants?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Interesting.

 

I was waiting for the "epilepsy in the lines!" "produces dogs that run agility" "works with people I don't like" storm.

 

 

 

OK, I am not going to comment on Karen's lines but people will say the above statements (whether true or not) about any breeder. I know Karen and but I never bought a dog from her....you might ask folks who have dealt with her. My dealings with her have been fine.

 

I have two dogs (altered) that run in agility and one on flyball (altered) and those folks are my herding students so you can apply the agility info to me as well, but they had to alter their dogs as part of the purchase. And I guarantee that the last statement can apply to everyone, as this isn't a perfect world and so forth.....

 

as for the epilepsy, that is more serious....ask for proof? Second hand is not valid. I don't know about Karen's lines....

 

If you are going to buy a red dog, please ask for the trial history of the parents, health, temperements and etc.......by trial history, I mean Open wins and not just one. Not winning in PN or a couple of runs in Nursery. Also ask about the grandparents.This is true for any dog/pup, regardless of colour.

 

You had emailed me about red pups....I don't bred for red pups but have the red in my lines. Since I bred every couple of years, I have most of the pups presold. I bred to replace my working dogs. Most of my buyers are repeats buyers. I have turned down a red breeder since she wanted to buy red for her kennel and she understood....we are still friends.

 

Do your research, as the pup you will get will be a lifetime committment.

 

My first Border Collie was from a BYB and had I know what I do know now, I NEVER would have gotten her but since I did, it was 15 plus yrs of a comittment...she was a farm dog, dog aggresive and bit children and poor health but we made the committment and never gave up....finally in her old age, she mellowed out. But if I had a ram that was a real pain, I would pull her out and she took no prisoners and she had save my life once. We still miss her to this day.

 

Do your reserach, be open to those who have been down the path before.