Searching for a foundation bitch?

[Christina]

Hey all,

My partner and I are in the process of searching for a foundation LINE for a breeding program that we would like to eventually establish (within the next ten years after we have gained the experience necessary).

 

The thing is, we want to do something that seems to be extraordinarily controversial.

 

I have a strong preference for red Border Collies. I would love to establish a working line of strictly red dogs while still breeding for exceptional working ability. Because red is a recessive trait, I know this means limiting an already narrow gene pool.

 

I want to purchase a red carrier or red foundation bitch and trial her. I have minimal experience working with a stock dog (only with my rescued BCs before her hips were too bad). I have read that red dogs tend to be overlooked in trials because of the color bias(is this true?) and that red dogs can be more difficult to work because (1) they are more likely to be challenged by stock and (2) they are harder to see at certain times of the day and under certain conditions.

 

I am willing to pay to have a bitch imported if necessary and will search until I find the right lines to incorporate into my program, but I know my lack of experience is going to eventually bite me in the butt.

 

I've heard the whole "breeding for color in working lines is not okay" spiel and I generally agree. However, if producing quality working dogs that are red in color can be done, is it still unacceptable to do so? Your thoughts?

 

Regards,

Christina

[bcnewe2]

I knew of a "red" only working breeder long ago. Their dogs started out from their family lines of nice working dogs, as they went "red" the dogs lost their wonderful working traits one at a time, then ended up just quirky and red.

 

My answer is, if you are just starting out, why the need to hurry into breeding? Find something else to breed to keep your breeding self happy. I'm not trying to be rude or funny. I don't breed my dogs, I breed my sheep and get much satisfaction out of it and, it probably helps me from being kennel blind and wanting to breed my own dogs that aren't worthy of being bred. Even though in my heart and imagination they are wonderful dogs that I would love to have puppies from.

I really work on breeding quality sheep but most of all I have fun playing with the genetics of my sheep. If I don't like what i bred, we eat it!

 

I have been at this game for quite some time. Still I feel I have more to learn before i want to be responsible for adding to the gene pool of Border Collies.

 

I hope you change your mind on both accounts for now.

[Christina]

FWIW I'm not in any hurry. I'm looking at ten or twenty years down the road.

 

I do breed right now- mice. I'm just getting into the world of guinea pig breeding. I have a good grasp on genetics and inheritance. The only thing I'm new to is stock dogs

 

I would also add that anyone who loses working ability in their breeding is doing something wrong. Whether that wrong thing is taking color into consideration when they breed is up for debate.

[Smalahundur]

Reconsidered, deleted post.

[Liz P]

I've known a few people who tried that. It didn't go well after a generation or two. Because color was a factor in breeding decisions, the important qualities were lost (working ability, temperament, health, etc). Don't make the same mistake. You would be severely limited on breeding choices if you brought a recessive color into the decision making process.

[Smalahundur]

Kinda rephrasing my deleted post, you say that you are new to stockwork, still you want to breed for work capacity, shouldn´t your first goal have to be "become a good (very good as in winning open trials good) handler"?

I am not going to go into the color aspect, though you think that is "up for debate", I think it isn´t.

[Jim Kling]

I think if you select for anything other than working ability, you're going to lose working ability. It's inevitable -- it's just a question of how long it will take.

 

Think of it the other way around. If you start out with red dogs, then select only for working ability, you'll lose the red color over time, right? Same thing if you select for red color.

 

I urge you to value the dogs for who they are -- for their working ability, for their personality, not for some particular physical trait.

 

And I also urge you to reconsider breeding until you've gained a LOT more experience working these dogs. It's very difficult and a very complex process to train a dog in sheepherding, much less evaluate a dog's inherent talent and worthiness to be bred.

[Christina]

Here's a question: How do I gain experience without a working dog? And if I do get a working dog and want to continue working with her offspring because she is exceptional, where is the crime in breeding her, regardless of what color she is?

 

I guess I don't understand why breeding for both working ability and color is impossible.

 

I am not talking about doing this tomorrow. I am looking at years from now after I have gained the necessary amount of experience. My knowledge of stockdog handling right now is irrelevant.

[Liz P]

As I have said, other people have already tried it an failed. They weren't dumb people either who lacked knowledge of genetics or working dogs. You just can't select for excellent working dogs and color. Buy a pup from a promising cross or buy a trained working dog. Get experience. Learn how to train and handle a Border Collie on stock. Find some mentors who will show you what traits really count.

[Liz P]

I see you live not too far from me. Why don't you come out to the trial at Bittersweet Farm in a few weeks. See the dogs work. I will be there with my crew.

[Christina]

I don't know much about them beyond what I've read on their websites but do Abingdon Ranch and Basin Border Collies count for anything?

[Jim Kling]

Well, of course get a working dog and gain experience with it. Just wait until you have experience (a LOT of it) before you decide to breed. Your post initial post suggested that you've already made up your mind to breed.

 

If you get a dog and she is exceptional, by all means breed her (I would make sure that you have a qualified trainer to help you make that determination). But then down the line, I would urge you to select for talent (and health of course) rather than a physical trait like coat color.

 

With regards to the difficulty in breeding for 2 different traits, considering an example. In one litter, you have a two red dogs. One is healthy and talented, the other is healthy but not very talented. So you decide to breed the healthy, talented, red dog. So far so good. Next litter there are 4 dogs. 2 are red and 2 are black and white (red being recessive, something like this is likely). 1 red dog is talented, 1 black and white dog is talented. But the black and white dog is much more talented than the red dog. Which one do you decide to breed?

 

If you are breeding for 2 traits, this kind of question is inevitably going to come up. You will then make a decision of which pup to breed -- and in doing so, you've decided the one trait that you are REALLY breeding for. You cannot simultaneously breed for two traits. Over time, the trait you aren't selecting or is going to fade away.

 

Does that make sense?

[Liz P]

[bcnewe2]

You are already searching for a foundation bitch but aren't going to do this breeding program for years? Then your foundation bitch will be to old to breed.

 

You buy a puppy out of good working parents or you buy an already trained dog to gain experience. If it's a great pup or working dog the lines won't die out after you buy your first dog. There will be more to choose from later. But I'm betting what you want today in a working dog will change almost every year or at least every dog you end up learning from.

If you really want to learn what to look for in breeding a working dog then you have to go with the puppy so you can learn what you are looking for in a foundation anything from the ground up.

 

I love all my working dogs, each one has traits that are wonderful. But as I grow and learn, my personal needs and experiences change what my original idea of what a perfect working dog is.

 

So what I liked 10 years ago is not the same as my criteria list is now.

 

All my dogs (or at least the ones I have now) have come from good working breeders, but they aren't my idea of what I'd like to reproduce. They are wonderful but.....I would never have known this had I not put all this time into learning about them.

 

The breeder that I referred to in my first post had top of the line open running dogs, I'm sure there are some of lines still out there still tearing up the trial fields. But the ones that was used to get to their all red kennel are long gone or I hope they are. You can't breed for 2 things and get the best of both. You have to pick 1. Jim King gives you a great example. I hope you don't get all huffy with the responses and miss all the information that you can gain.

[Covelo Dogs]

Two questions

How much livestock experience do you have?

And why are you looking at dogs bred to work cattle?

[bcnewe2]

I have read that red dogs tend to be overlooked in trials because of the color bias(is this true?) and that red dogs can be more difficult to work because (1) they are more likely to be challenged by stock and (2) they are harder to see at certain times of the day and under certain conditions.

 

As for an answer to these questions? I don't think so at all. If a good red dog wins the day, then it's acknowledged like any other winner for that day. And I for sure know they are not challenged by stock because they are red, I once had and trained a red dog for a while, it was one from that kennel that I mentioned earlier, it was not ever challenged by stock but it was challenging to work with non the less.

 

A dog gets challenged by stock if the stock perceive a weakness in the dog or the dog is harassing the stock.

[G. Festerling]

bcnewe2, love your post. Could not have put it better!

 

Christina, what makes you "better" than so many others that have tried before? Not just in dogs!

 

My dogs (both chosen breeds) are by most standards everything but cookie cutter. Color, ears, structure... I love it. But they all work. Some better than others.

 

But, as bcnewe2 pointed out, years of experience will change your priorities. Get the experience first. Lots of it, then see from there.

 

In the meantime, if a red dog floats your boat, by all means. Go for it.

 

PS: I breed geckos. I breed for color and looks. They don't do anything but look cute and adorable. They don't work or learn tricks. They just hang out and are charming. And even there, my two pairs have to at least be friendly. I can't even forget to look for something but a specific look only in a gecko!!!

 

I also come from the performance horse industry....I don't ride color but ability and brains.

 

Look past the stock dogs and do your research. And if this post of yours is part of it - good - so be it.

[Eileen Stein]

Here's a question: How do I gain experience without a working dog? And if I do get a working dog and want to continue working with her offspring because she is exceptional, where is the crime in breeding her, regardless of what color she is?

 

I guess I don't understand why breeding for both working ability and color is impossible.

 

Breeding for both working ability and color isn't impossible. Some people choose to do it. They just don't produce the best working dogs, because in the quest to do something that is far from easy, they are limiting themselves unnecessarily. The best handlers do not look to get a dog from breeders who breed for color, and there's a reason for that. Look at it this way: Suppose you are breeding racehorses. You want to breed for speed, but also you want to breed strictly white horses. After several generations, who is going to have produced the fastest racehorses, you or the folks who are breeding only for speed and not limiting themselves to one color?

 

You need a working dog to gain experience, that's true. So you should get one, but get the best one you can, regardless of color. You are in learning mode. You will not be able to make an informed judgment about the quality of your dog, in terms of heritable working ability, as compared to the full range of working dogs for many years -- the ten years you mention is realistic. Since you will not have enough experience to breed knowledgeably until this dog is beyond breeding age, why limit your choice by color? Choose a dog from a cattledog breeder if you will be working mainly cattle. Choose a dog from a sheepdog breeder if you will be working mainly sheep. To learn as much as you possibly can about working dogs and livestock is a much, much better goal to have at this stage than breeding.

 

I am not talking about doing this tomorrow. I am looking at years from now after I have gained the necessary amount of experience. My knowledge of stockdog handling right now is irrelevant.

 

Well, it's relevant to the extent that you may not have the experience now to see why those who have more experience think your goal of breeding red working dogs is not a good idea. And it's also true that those with little experience tend to underestimate how much time and work it takes, and how hard it is, to achieve competence in this endeavor.

[Sue R]

bcnewe2, love your post. Could not have put it better!

There are an awful lot of contradictions in the OP posts, and that doesn't even include breeding for color. Wanting a foundation bitch but not looking at breeding for maybe 10 to 20 years? Having little if any stockdog experience or, for that matter, experience with livestock (at least not that your posts indicate)? If you don't know much at all about stockdogs and livestock, how will you possibly be able to know if any dog or bitch you have is worth breeding? How will you possibly know what might be a good type/line of mate for your dog?

 

As others have said, start with the best dog/bitch you can find. Get a good mentor to teach you and your dog/bitch. Learn everything you can in a hands-on fashion about sheep and/or cattle (depending on where your emphasis will be). Learn, learn, learn. And then learn some more.

 

Once you've put in the time and mileage in learning - in a hands-on fashion - about stock and stockdogs, maybe then you might be ready to look at getting and working with a dog that has breeding potential.

 

PS: Would you consider going to a bloodstock auction, bidding on and buying a young colt or filly, training and racing him/her yourself, all with the goal of breeding that animal in the future - without having some years of experience in working with Thoroughbreds and trainers, races, and horse breeders to learn the ropes? I'm not sure this is much different.

 

PPS: The genetics involved in breeding quality stockdogs is not the same as that of breeding mice and guinea pigs. In addition to the physical package, there is also temperment to consider - and the package of traits that contribute to stockworking ability. It's not a science, it's an art.

[SS Cressa]

Are reds really rare in the working dogs?

 

I understand the whole "just going with reds" would be limiting but is there a way to get a higher chances of reds in litters while not loosing the high standard of working ability?

 

Are red carriers uncommon in the working world?

 

I was thinking if you started with a red head you could breed her to anyone. Any of her pups would automatically be a red carrier. From there you could search for a carrier or a head head. One thing I would be curious about is what if the pup you kept didn't turn out? Would you spay her? What would be your standard to decide if the dog is breed worthy?

[SS Cressa]

Side note. That is pure speculation. I prefer black and whites.

[juliepoudrier]

I like red dogs. A lot. I have several. Two were reasonably successful open trial dogs. One I tried to breed, but she never caught. I would love to have another red dog, but it would have to be a red dog that just appeared in a great litter not bred for color.

 

I really don't know why anyone would start from the premise "I want a foundation bitch to breed red working dogs from" instead of "I want to learn about working dogs and livestock and trialing and all that entails, and once I have a lot of experience with those aspects of the breed, then I might consider breeding, especially if I have a good 'un."

 

 

SS Cressa,

Yes you could start with a red dog who would automatically give only the recessive red gene to offspring, but crossing that dog to another dog who also carried the recessive red gene wouldn't guarantee red pups anyway.

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

True. I was more thinking the genetics were there at least. So there would be a possibility.

 

 

And of course if the op wanted a red dog in each litter that would severely limit her options. But if she just wanted lines that could produce red. I was thinking could that be possible?

[JaderBug]

Is this question in regards to this post on Facebook?

 

[ejano]

I would love to have another red dog, but it would have to be a red dog that just appeared in a great litter not bred for color.

 

 

Yes - I think a red dog has to find you! :)/> I had never seen a red BC until I met Robin. It has been noted that selecting for a particular trait that isn't directly related to health or performance is very risky to the breed.