On shock collars

[Alchemist]

Because the topic of shock collars came up in a recent thread, when someone posted this link on FB today, I was curious enough to follow up on it. Lots of food for thought; I urge anyone using a shock collar (or thinking of using one) to read it. There are links to at least one scholarly article (in which stress hormones were measured in dogs exposed to shock collars used for different scenarios, including failure to recall when commanded). It even discusses the situation of "can they be used to train dogs away from snakes" (or other situations where an argument might be made for a strong aversive):

 

http://www.squidoo.com/collars-shock

[rufftie]

great article. was just gonna post it myself!

[SS Cressa]

Thanks for sharing.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

The article is prefaced with: " How you train your dog, and the tools you choose, are decisions that set the tone for your life with your dog. This lens gives objective information about how dogs learn, and gives the most current information available about the best ways to train them, and how shock collars fit into that."

 

But the authors aren't objective. They are "positive trainers", citing other "positive trainers" to promote a predictable biased point of view. Circle jerk.

 

My experience suggests more complicated considerations.

 

1. I know no sucessful sheepdog handler who uses a shock collar routinely for sheepdog training.

 

2. Shock collars are the easiest training tool to abuse. Indeed, given our techophiliac, lazy, simple-solution culture they positively invite abuse.

 

3. I don't know the long term effects of pet dog ecollar training. I do know some top practitioner's pet/trick demo dogs burn out but don't know if this happens to less stressed ecollar trained pet dogs.

 

4. Although most traditional pet dog trainers use ecollars occasionally, a few very good trainers who once praised them have abandoned them. As yet I don't know why.

 

5. They are tool of choice for top bird dog and retriever trainers. They are commonplace in police dog training, protection sports and SAR.

 

6. I am biased toward "personal" dog training. I ask, I reprove, I praise. None of my corrections are anonymous. I dislike anonymous corrections (throw chains, "taps" etc) as well as symbolic motivators like treats and clicks. Although I will lie to my dog I don't want to do so routinely.

 

With these caveats in mind, I believe that IN SKILLED HANDS the ecollar is the fastest track to solid, bulletproof pet dog training. On the rare occasions anonymous corrections are required, the ecollar is a first rate delivery system.

 

The skilled ecollar training I've seen isn't cruel. Certainly the dogs didn't think it was.

 

 

The ecollar's no tool for novices. It's too unforgiving. Unlike "positive training" it can do great harm very quickly. But ignorant, biased demonization like this article makes (or keeps) us stupid.

 

Donald McCaig

[Laurae]

You have advocated for the use of shock collars in the past as well, Donald, but always with the caveat that you don't believe they should be used for sheepdog training, which is the kind of training you do. This led me to wonder, have you successfully trained several pet dogs with shock collars?

[Root Beer]

But the authors aren't objective. They are "positive trainers", citing other "positive trainers" to promote a predictable biased point of view.

 

By that yardstick, objectivity is not possible. Shock collar trainers citing other shock collar trainers would promote an equally predictable point of view, as would all quadrant proponents.

 

That aside, I would be interested in knowing with which specific points, presented in this article by this author, you disagree, and what your reason for that disagreement is.

 

Also, I'm curious about this . . .

 

I do know some top practitioner's pet/trick demo dogs burn out

 

Who, exactly, is this? Which specific methods does this practitioner advocate? What was the nature of the trick demo's? What was the nature of this "burn out"?

 

Thanks for the info. None of my own dogs have "burned out", I don't know anyone to whom this has happened, and I am wondering who this is and exactly what happened.

[gcv-border]

5. They are tool of choice for top bird dog and retriever trainers. They are commonplace in police dog training, protection sports and SAR.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Maybe, but aren't those cultures changing away (albeit slowly) from using e-collars? - particularly for SAR work.

 

I know of one SAR trainer who trains without resorting to e-collars. She has been training for SAR for about 35 years -starting with bloodhounds, and currently has a Viszla. She no longer actively participates in SAR field operations as a dog handler, but she trains the local SAR teams, often participates as a trainer and evaluator in multi-state SAR workshops and certifications, and is certified to do international searches. Her last 2 dogs have also done double-duty as her personal seizure alert dogs.

 

I do not know if she has used e-collars in the past, but certainly does not advocate their use now.

 

Jovi

[TEC]

Dear Doggers,

 

...With these caveats in mind, I believe that IN SKILLED HANDS the ecollar is the fastest track to solid, bulletproof pet dog training. On the rare occasions anonymous corrections are required, the ecollar is a first rate delivery system.

 

The skilled ecollar training I've seen isn't cruel. Certainly the dogs didn't think it was.

 

The ecollar's no tool for novices. It's too unforgiving. Unlike "positive training" it can do great harm very quickly. But ignorant, biased demonization like this article makes (or keeps) us stupid.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Thank you for speaking up. Like most areas of endeavor, dog training is not a matter of completely accepting a few methods to the exclusion of everything else...the "all-or-nothing" approach to dogs. I know reasonable thoughtful dog trainers, as well as sheepdog handlers, who have ecollars in their tool kits. They have their place. -- Kind regards, TEC

[Sue R]

And you may have not noted Mr McCaig's #1 point.

[OurBoys]

Even though I ended up getting an e-collar, IMO, I don’t believe one should be used on a sensitive, intelligent dog. I don’t care how experienced a person is, there is going to be a time when your timing is off. I’m not proud of the fact I broke down and bought one but this was before I knew this forum existed and I didn’t know what else to do at the time. The only thing I did know, it was imperative for Jake's safety for him to stay off that section of fence until he learned to ignore distractions and listen to me.

 

Our next door neighbor from hell is what I would describe as a passive/aggressive bully. He’s always there for you if/when you need him (and even to this day he thinks I’m a great person because I rescue) but he used to have a dog aggressive German Shepherd, Sada. I really think he got off on the fact his dog could/would beat up other dogs. Sada had got hold of every dog in our subdivision with the exception of Jake and Josie by the time she died. (Sada died soon after we got Josie.) The day Sada got hold of JJ I really believe the thick coat around his neck helped save him. Sada had gotten him around the throat and wouldn’t let go. Only when DH stuck his finger down her throat did she release him. (Back then, DH didn’t know there was such a thing as a dog aggressive dog and he thought since we were friends with the neighbors, our dogs would be friends too.) After that day, our dogs were never allowed to be around Sada despite the NFH’s attempts. He would drive his tractor close to our fence. If it grabbed a piece of it and pulled it out, he would keep driving and not say anything to us. Every time he walked by our fence, he would hit it with the back of his hand to rile up my dogs. He let Sada follow him over here when he used to come over to knock on our front door. When he realized we don’t let our dogs run around the front yard, he came to the back door. Our backyard is fenced in. One time I had just come into the house with JJ & Jake. While I was taking my shoes off, I heard a knock on the back door. There he stood………with Sada. He told me it was his wife’s fault Sada followed him into our fenced in backyard. I still haven’t figured that one out. (I just gave him a “You’re full of sh!t” look, told him I would get DH, closed the door in his face and made him wait outside.) One of the other neighbor’s was going to sue him until he paid for their $400 vet bill and agreed to hire a trainer. The trainer only came to their house for a few weeks. The NFH would sit in a chair in the front yard while his wife worked with the trainer. The trainer finally told them if he wasn’t going to bother working with Sada, she was just taking their money and quit on them. So, even after Jake learned to ignore distractions (the reason I enrolled him in obedience class) and listen to me, I still had to do a lot of managing to keep him safe. I think what floored me more than anything was the time NFH asked me to let Jake out of the yard to “play” with Sada. This was just a few weeks before she died. I don’t know what she died from but she had horrible hips by then; she could barely get around. I’m sure he thought Jake would go up to her to sniff her and she could get ahold of him then but if not, why encourage a dog with such bad hips and in a lot of pain to run? (He told me I didn’t have anything to worry about since Jake was such a fast runner.)

 

(((Sigh))) I’ll be so glad when we are finally able move from here.

[bcnewe2]

So Brenda you didn't say, did the collar work when you put it on the NFH neighbor?

 

My personal opinion on E-collars is that there is a time and a place for one, just not in sheepdog training. I don't own one but I have used a no bark e-collar. What I found was that they worked great untill you took it off the dog. But that's just my personal experience.

[MrSnappy]

I would argue that as someone that works in the shelter system and sees an awful lot of "pet dogs" that have been "trained" with an e-collar, they are not a surefire, bulletproof or particularly useful tool. Unless your goal is to create a confused, stressed, demotivated dog that you eventually want to dump at the shelter. In that case, they work like a hot damn.

 

I'm just never really sure how correcting a dog for being a dog with a painful electric impulse can't be considered cruel.

 

RDM

[OurBoys]

So Brenda you didn't say, did the collar work when you put it on the NFH neighbor?

 

Trust me that thought crossed my mind more than once. If they had passed a law or an ordinance allowing me to do that, I would have dug it out of storage in a heartbeat. ;)/>

 

My personal opinion on E-collars is that there is a time and a place for one, just not in sheepdog training. I don't own one but I have used a no bark e-collar. What I found was that they worked great untill you took it off the dog. But that's just my personal experience.

Jake knew when he had it on and when he didn’t. I didn’t care. (Jake didn’t wear the collar every day.) I just needed something that would bring him back to reality when he zoned out. I had tried water bottles, sticks, standing in his path, making loud noises, toys. Nothing worked until Jake was tone trained. But that was before we bonded. It was important to me for Jake to look for me for instruction/guidance but at the time, to him, I was no different than the guy next door. Taking him to obedience class where it was a more controlled environment was the best thing that happened to him. (Talk about distractions, not only there were other dogs in the class but for the first couple of weeks, there were birds flying around in the store but those distractions I could handle. :)/> )

 

I know all trainers are not created equally but e-collars shouldn’t become crutches. Does that make sense?

 

ETA: Are bark collars the same thing as e-collars? I thought bark collars sprayed a scent vs e-collars that shock.

[bcnewe2]

Our bark collars were the same thing as an e collar but they are self limiting or self induced, you don't have to worry about timing unless your dog does something to set the collar off himself.

 

I had one on my daughters dog as he was just a barker by birth, barked for whatever reason he felt the need. He was very bark collar savvy. Mine would beep a warning if he barked once, then go up a level for however many more barks the dog did. I think there were 8 or 12 levels and if the dog was quiet for 30 seconds it reset back to the beep.

Pach would bark, wait 30 seconds and bark again. One day he was outside with other dogs. I thought he was barking so I looked out, nope he was snoozing in the sun but still about every 30 seconds the bark would happen. But every time I looked he'd be snoozing. So I stood there an watched. after 30 seconds he would open his one eye bark and then back to snooze. He was just a barker.

 

I would still use one if I had another barker but I realize they are a temporary thing and they don't work for all dogs.

One day Pach and Mick got in an all out brawl, usually I could stop them with a harsh word but by the time I got to them it was a mess, Pach was yowling which set off his bark collar which would make him bark more and the whole time he thought it was Mick that was biting him in the neck.

 

Sorta scared me off any correction that I wasn't in charge of but also it was sort of a freak thing. I would def. not leave one on a dog that was hangin with other dogs where that could happen again.

 

I think e-collars can be used properly but humans are notorious for doing something to an extreme. So if a little shock might work then what does a big shock do? I think Sheena sees the messes that come to her through rescue with improper use of e-collars, the successful ones don't usually end up in rescue, they are usually the proponents of obedience training and they are highly skilled in their timing and usage.

 

I have to admit I have had a dog getting on my last nerve and I have thought to myself, if only I had a shock collar I would teach that dog a thing or 2. So, there you go...I'm thinking of hurting my dog in anger, with a shock collar and I'm a nice human being I am not an abuser. But what if in the heat of the moment I did have a shock collar on one? Just a push of a button....

 

I don't beat my dog or use extremly harsh corrections but if I got angry and did, I'd have to take responsibility for the corrections I use because I'd be right there doling out the correction I did in anger, quite a lot of quilt would I have to wear.

A shock collar is to easy a button to hit in anger or the heat of the moment and then you don't even have to take the blame or responsibility, the dog never really knows it's you. No, I don't need to wield that sort of punishment control over my dogs. And again I think I'm a nice person not and abuser or extreme punisher. So what about the person that has an abusive propensity?

 

But I have seen them used properly too. Where the dog did not end up a sniveling fearful idiot. It was just another training tool.

 

I would use one in a life or death instance like car chasing or something along that line. I tried one once on an LGD for chicken killing but it never stopped the killing. Thick fur I guess. But other than life or death issues I sort of think it's a lazy mans way of teaching a dog. The dog certainly learns what not to do but it doesn't learn in a manner that makes you a partner or a part of his training at all.

 

Whoosh that was long. Sorry.

[waffles]

One thing that always crossing my mind in discussions about e collars is, what about electric fences? I never see that brought up in these discussions (not just here but in general), typically don't see bark collars brought up either. Electric fences are very common where I live and I assume in most places in the US. I never really hear people calling those cruel. I know the idea behind them is that once the training is done the dog should rarely ever get shocked but that is not always the case. I have never really heard of any negative fall out. I did know someone who had started training her Great Dane on the electric fence system and the dog refused to go more than 10 ft outside the back door out of fear of a shock. A couple months ago I also heard a vet tech talking about her Jack Russel being afraid of any beeping noise since her electric fence collar beeped to warn her.

 

I personally have no use for an electric fence and wouldn't use one but they seem to be more widely accepted than e collars (and I know they are not the same thing) but at the basic level, they both use shock. I guess I am just curious why one form of shock is more accepted and the other is not. Again, I know the two are used differently (bark/electric fences take the human error/over use out of the situation) but still seems odd that you (or I at least) never hear much complaining about them, especially when many positive only trainers will have pages on their sites dedicated to how e collars are cruel but never mention electric fence systems. Thoughts? Do positive only trainers ever recommend/endorse the use of electric fences?

[OurBoys]

I hate e-fences. Not only do some dogs become afraid of going outside, it does nothing to stop strange dogs from coming onto your property. (We don’t have a leash law per se in the county I live in. As long as you can control your dog with voice commands, you don’t have to have them on a leash.) Our other next door neighbors (the nice ones) use an e-fence. More than once I’ve heard a commotion outside and went running out the door to help Lucy, the Beagle mix. Just earlier this week, Jake and Josie were outside and started raising heck. It wasn’t a warning barking/growling; they meant business. When I went outside to see what was going on, I found a man with 2 dogs in the neighbor’s yard next to our side yard fence. Apparently, one of his dogs got loose. He was trying his best to re-leash his dog but with 2 of mine out there making a scene, he was having a problem. Lucy was nowhere to be seen or heard. She had taken cover and didn’t come out until after the guy and his dogs were gone. (I had brought Jake & Josie back in so his dog would calm down.) The dog that had gotten loose was a huge dog. I’d hate to think what would have happened to little Lucy if it had attacked her. I think Josie might have thought the same thing. She loves Lucy and I’d never seen her so mad.

 

ETA: My feelings stated above are in regards to pets. I understand if e-fences are needed for livestock. Though after reading rushdoggie's post I can see how they could be useful as an addition but never alone.

[rushdoggie]

I had a Siberian that could get out of the fence by climbing carefully over the chain link. So, I decided to use an e fence with the wire buried outside the fence line so that if she was within a few inches of the fence it would get her and she wouldn't hang out to climb.

 

It worked great. Unfortunately, one day I loaded her in the van and forgot to take the collar off and when I pulled out I crossed the wire at the gate and she shrieked.

 

I felt SO BAD.

 

It did keep her in the fence so long as she wore the collar. If it was off she'd go climbing right on out.

[waffles]

I definitely agree that e fences have there own host of issues (dogs left outside unattended all day, running the line barking crazy at people walking by, being able to run through, other animals/dogs being able to run through, delivery guys getting surprised, etc) but I still wonder if people who would never use an e collar have no issue using an electric fence?

 

I think one of the worst aspects of electric fences (at least for me) is that dogs can be left unattended with access to the front yard. Before we moved to 'the country', we used to have to walk past 2 labs that were on an e fence and every day they would come running from the back yard rushing us barking like mad. The owners were never out to stop them and they kept on barking until we were out of site. Plus I have seen many UPS guys get bombarded when dogs coming running from the back yard. At least with a physical fence dogs are kept in the back yard and not a few feet from me walking in the road. My in-laws were even forced to put a mail box at the end of their driveway by the USPS because they would leave their big hound out unattended on an e fence. We once even had a dog run through his line to come meet us in the road. Of course, the owners are no where in site.

[bcnewe2]

I have never used an e-fence just because of the failure rate and I haven't had the need to. But I do use electric fencing for my sheep. It is hotter than any shock collar or dog fence I've ever seen. So hot that I haven't had it on for 6 months and the sheep still won't even go close. I'm sorry that they have had to recieve a shock to learn to stay away but it was the only fencing I could use and afford at the time. It also keeps thing out of my pastures as well. The dogs have all hit it. It brought tears to my eyes when my old dog tangled into it. She was so old she did not know to stop trying to go through it. Thank doG that I'm usually out when my dogs are out so I could get over and help her. Dew hit it yelped once and really never worried about it again. Mick hit it and took him a day and a half to come back outside.

All of them only took one time. I assume it didn't take much more for my sheep.

 

It is a useful tool and I will continue to use it but I do try to teach a dog to stay off it right from the start. But seems that they have to hit it to learn.

 

When Mick was about a year or so old he was staying at a friends place. Guy had electronet up. Mick not only hit it but tangled into it. Left a bald spot on his paw. Took the guy 24 hours to find Mick (he was hiding under a bush) and days to earn his trust back. Mick will cross a street to avoid coming close to any electric fencing. But he's still sane and normal...ok lets just say the fence hasn't affected him long term except to stay away from them.

[waffles]

I am really only referring to electric fences that are used on dogs with a collar on their neck, not fences for livestock. A friend has a GSD that figured out how to jump the electric fence he uses to keep his sheep in. Pretty funny to watch the dog jump that high to avoid the shock, not so funny when he is running around chasing sheep though.

[Eileen Stein]

Dear Doggers,

 

The article is prefaced with: " How you train your dog, and the tools you choose, are decisions that set the tone for your life with your dog. This lens gives objective information about how dogs learn, and gives the most current information available about the best ways to train them, and how shock collars fit into that."

 

But the authors aren't objective. They are "positive trainers", citing other "positive trainers" to promote a predictable biased point of view.

 

I agree that the author represents this as an objective look at shock collars, and it's not. But neither is it "ignorant, biased demonization." If you ignore the "Then you can feel like a real hero" and "I give you permission to snicker" stuff, and the tired misleading wolf stuff, there are a number of valid points made.

 

You'd have to admit that the shock collar training video they show makes for mighty depressing viewing, and that's not a demo by a biased positive trainer, that's a demo by a proud professional e-collar trainer.

 

With these caveats in mind, I believe that IN SKILLED HANDS the ecollar is the fastest track to solid, bulletproof pet dog training.

 

Whose are the skilled hands, the trainer's or the pet owner's? If the pet owner were skilled, s/he wouldn't need to hire the e-collar trainer (or buy an e-collar). And haven't you seen enough sheepdogs performing beautifully for skilled clinicians and dismally for their owners to reflect on how that "solid, bulletproof pet dog training" makes the transition back to the dog's everyday life?

 

Like Laurae, I have to wonder how extensive your experience with successful training via e-collars has been -- e.g., number of hours spent observing e-collar training by experts, number of hours spent observing those dogs' subsequent performance of the trained behavior with the trainer but without the collar after some passage of time, number of hours spent observing those dogs' subsequent performance of the trained behavior when back home with their owners after some passage of time, number of dogs observed in each of these situations.

[Smalahundur]

Free sale of e-collars means they will land in unskilled hands, that means they will be abused, and that means dogs will suffer. No buts.

That´s why I am a strong advocate of simply banning sale of these devices.

Feel free to ask me what to do with a dog that is untrainable without resorting to this particular method...

[MrSnappy]

I think Sheena sees the messes that come to her through rescue with improper use of e-collars, the successful ones don't usually end up in rescue, they are usually the proponents of obedience training and they are highly skilled in their timing and usage.

 

Actually, I said shelter (twice) not rescue, and to clarify I am speaking of dogs who have trained with the local (allegedly skilled) e-collar trainer who has given up on those dogs as being "untrainable." Interestingly, most of them are highly trainable, but it takes some considerable time for them to learn to offer behaviours that can be rewarded, as they are highly conditioned to offer NOTHING, since they were routinely shocked for doing regular dog type things and are among some of the most demotivated dogs I have ever seen.

 

RDM

[Liz P]

they are highly conditioned to offer NOTHING, since they were routinely shocked for doing regular dog type things and are among some of the most demotivated dogs I have ever seen.

 

This is also true of the dogs I have seen who were trained with an e-collar on stock. They are hesitant and afraid to do anything for fear of being corrected. If the dog is too afraid to try new things, it's hard to expand their skill set.

[alligande]

Where I live there is a very popular E-collar trainer and I regularly see "his" dogs and clients out on my walks, in fact I get asked often if he trained my dogs which usually gets an indignant snort and a mild lecture on how easy it is to train your own dog.

 

What I see is owners who have no idea how to use the dam thing to get their dog to respond, so they have spent all this money sent their dog to boarding school for a couple of weeks and because they really don't understand how it works still stand there repeatedly calling their dogs name while the dog does his own thing until they get desperate and hit the collar. To me that equals a confused dog.

 

I have no doubt that in the hands of a skilled trainer they can work for certain applications, a friends father is a very skilled gun dog trainer who is now doing government work and it is in his tool box, but only as one of many tools. But when he hands a government dog over, he is handing a dog over to someone who has undergone extensive handler training. With a pet dog these skilled trainers hand the dog back to their owners and unless the owner fully understands what is going on the dog will regress. And to me if I follow this logic through, if you can get the owner on board and understand how the e-collar works then there is a good chance a good trainer could have trained them and their dog without an e-collar.

 

Bottom line: These are dog owners who love their dogs but are looking for away to have a well behaved dog without putting the time in, and in my limited experience I do not see dogs who are any better behaved than the owners who have taken their dogs to our local shelter for lessons (they have a great training center) and are not consistent in following through either.