Effect of prozac on working dog.

[RoseAmy]

Hi all,

 

I've taken in a 18 month old border collie. I came by him through the vet. His owners were in way over their heads with him. Long story short..they realized he was too much for them and want to rehome him. I've put him on sheep and he does a surprisely nice job..Would make a nice little novice dog. In fact I have someone that is interested in him..

 

The problem is that he has some off sheep issues that I am working on. Vet suggested when I took him to put him on prozac to help him as I work on his issues. However he made a comment that it may impede is sheep work..

 

Those of you here who has had dogs on prozac do you think it affected their work. If so in what way.

 

I would like to find this guy a nice home..

[Olivia]

My young dog ended up on prozac due to some issues that appeared when I got divorced and had to move a couple of times abruptly, etc. The issues didn't have anything to do with her sheepwork in the beginning and she didn't suffer any side effects from the prozac use in regards to her sheepwork or training. She was only on the prozac for about a year to allow her and her brain to readjust to everything that was and had happened in our lives and was on a pretty low dose, 10mg daily for a 30lb dog.

 

Just my experience.

[Liz P]

You shouldn't see any problems if the dose is correct. In fact, I like my dog's work better when he is taking his meds.

[red russel]

okay then... so why is everyone so upset with Lance Armstrong?

 

dave

[G. Festerling]

Yeah, I was wondering if that could then possibly be considered a "performance enhancing" drug!

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

A couple years ago, my Luke who was an experienced open trial dog, developed a lick granuloma (obsessive licking a sore). The vet suggested amitriptyline, which I administered. Luke stopped his licking but also stopped listening to me on the trial field. Not entirely - the difference may not have been noticeable in a farm dog - but we started missing panels we hadn't missed before. We were no longer of one mind.

 

I took Luke off it and our communication resumed at its former level.

 

Drug management of dog behaviors is sometimes necessary but drugs are probably overprescribed. These drugs are expensive and in the cultural drumbeat, side effects whether in humans or dogs are often overlooked.

 

Pet dogs in the hands of dog ignorant owners can develop "Separation anxiety" and perhaps other syndromes best remedied by a behaviorist and drugs.

 

Me, I'd suggest the owner develop dog savvy and learn their dog but that does take time.

 

I've known top handlers who've gone off Prozac because it took away their "edge". I believe it'd have the same undesirable effect on working sheepdogs.

 

Donald McCaig

[Liz P]

I find some of the comments incredibly insensitive. My grandfather might be alive today if people recognized PTSD and were able to treat it effectively with medications and therapy. My dog would certainly be dead if it wasn't for that recognition and ability to treat. Psychiatric disorders are no laughing matter.

[toney]

Because a medicine is prescribed to actually have some effect on the dog, I would think it would affect the working ability, perhaps positively or negatively. The difference could be very subtle. Each dog is different. A positive effect, such as reducing nervousness and relaxing and concentrating better on sheep, could then I suppose be considered in the realm of "performance enhancing drugs", while a less hooked on and interested approach to his sheep could be considered a negative effect. However, most times Prozac is a temporary drug and is not a lifelong med, so the benefits may outweigh the costs in finding this dog a working home.

[G. Festerling]

Liz, I hope mine was not one of them. I have no issue with meds were they are appropriate. I just found you comment about you liking you dogs performance on drugs better, with a smiley behind it, funny. Sorry if I misread it.

[G. Festerling]

Toney, good post. Makes me think though, is it fair for competition? Which I realize has little to do with the post. Does it mask, disguise or otherwise alter what naturally makes a dog? Obviously, on the ranch, where it is not a matter of placings (i.e. prestige, trophy, bragging rights, a few bucks) getting the job done is foremost. But in a competition, could the difference of a dog on those kind of prescription meds, be a deciding factor? Either way as you pointed out. Good or bad?

How much of a difference is it to make a solid impact?

[rushdoggie]

Pet dogs in the hands of dog ignorant owners can develop "Separation anxiety" and perhaps other syndromes best remedied by a behaviorist and drugs.

 

Me, I'd suggest the owner develop dog savvy and learn their dog but that does take time.

 

 

 

*Twitch*

 

As the owner of a "pet dog" with a serious anxiety issue, I find your post really wrong, and quite insulting.

 

I am am far from "ignorant" of dogs, having owned many dogs over many years (and fostering many more) including several Border Collies. My dog has chemical imbalance in his brain that makes it hard for him to overcome his fear of strangers, and by being helped by medication he is actually learning how to do so. No amount of me being "dog savvy" is going to change him. I worked with him for 2 years including with several different styles of trainer before I sought help from a behavioral vet. He was getting worse and was starting to be offensively aggressive.

 

I think helping him chemically was useful and is allowing him to be someplace other than home. I hope to give us both a quality of life that we were not having.

 

The meds are actually very inexpensive (generics, dontchaknow) and seem to be helping and I will be able to have a dog who can handle life. Do some people reach for an easy answer? No doubt. But even then, the drugs don't sedate a dog, and they don't have long term negative physical side effects.

[Maja]

I think there is not enough information in the post to actually see how bad the situation is. I think Donald makes good point, i think many vet would prescribe Prozac at a drop of a hat. I mean, doctor over-prescribe it for people so why not over-prescribe for dogs. A quick 'fix'.

 

On the other hand there are genuine problems that cannot be solved by behaviorist or being dog savvy, as was described here in some posts.

 

I think the OP does not give us enough information about the situation to really see whether it is the former or the latter, and both are legitimate options.

 

So in reference to the OP's question some side effects on dogs are given here:

 

prozac

prozac

[juliepoudrier]

Interesting comments Maja. IME, many vets are reluctant to prescribe Prozac and similar drugs for pets because those drugs can be abused by humans. I have a dog who probably could have benefited from drug therapy, but I never found a vet who would go beyond the standard veterinary drugs (e.g., no Prozac, Xanax, etc.).

 

As for performance enhancement or not, I would hope that if such drugs are needed to improve performance that the owner of the dog would think long and hard about breeding that dog. I wouldn't much care if someone finds that their dog needs Prozac or whatever to deal with life's stresses and that a happy additional circumstance was better work, but I would seriously question someone breeding from such a dog.

 

I don't think anyone is making fun of psychiatric disorders, especially not of the human variety. Depression and anxiety run in my family, and yes, drugs are used to make things better for those who are affected. But as has often been stated on this forum, dogs are not humans and what it appropriate and acceptable for humans may not always be appropriate for dogs. <--And comments directed at use in dogs should not be construed as being directed at humans either. Note that I am not saying meds like Prozac, etc., shouldn't be used (I have already stated that I have one--actually more than one--dog that could probably benefit), but if a dog has a psychiatric disorder that requires such meds for the dog to cope with life, then it's not something I would risk perpetuating by breeding from. JMO.

 

To the OP, if you're vet is willing, you can try the meds. You have worked the dog before, and you should be able to tell if the meds make a significant difference in the dog's work. If not, then no worries. If so, then you would have the option of trying other meds or just taking the dog back off meds. Dogs are so individual that it's hard to predict. For example, I have an epileptic dog who is on phenobarbital. I am on a canine epilepsy list and the number of dogs who experience seemingly permanent changes in their athletic abilities is shockingly (to me) high. And yet the only obvious side effect I have noticed with my dog is that she can't as easily jump up on the bed, so she jumps up on a trunk (about 6" lower) at the foot of the bed and gets on from there. (That said, my bed is tall enough that it's not easy for any of the non-medicated dogs to jump up there either.) So anyway, if you and your vet think drugs will help, why not try them? Nothing ventured....

 

J.

[Maja]

Good post Julie .

 

maja

[Blackdawgs]

I have a pet dog on prozac. Prozac had zero effect on her sheep instinct and (unfortunately) did not make her more manageable on sheep.

 

The dog does some low level agility. I had cut the dose to 50% and we (the trainer and I) thought that the dog was more energetic. However, the dog has always been sensitive to outdoor temperature and has some underlying orthopedic problems, so it is hard to say if the apparent increase in energy was from the reduced prozac or other factors. About 2.5-3 months ago, the prozac was bumped up to the origional dose and I don't see a change in her energy level, but there was a decrease in her anxiety.

 

When I had initially contacted the DVM behaviorist, I had told her that I did not want to medicate the dog for "Border Collie in the suburbs syndrome" or, so I could do agility. The DVM did diagnose my dog with "generalized" anxiety disoder; I did not realize the magnitude of the problem until the dog was medicated and became more normal.

 

The same DVM refused to medicate a friend's dog, just so it could compete in sport. As I told the person, the litmus test is whether the anxiety is generalized (every day life) vs situational (sport competitions only).

 

I think that quality of life trumps working/sports. If the dog truly needs the meds, I think that it should get them regardless of any negative effect on extracurricular activities.

[Mark Billadeau]

As for performance enhancement or not, I would hope that if such drugs are needed to improve performance that the owner of the dog would think long and hard about breeding that dog. I wouldn't much care if someone finds that their dog needs Prozac or whatever to deal with life's stresses and that a happy additional circumstance was better work, but I would seriously question someone breeding from such a dog.

 

J.

Julie has stated my only concern about using drugs that may impact performance of stockwork; how it could influence breeding decisions.

 

When one really looks at the details of sheepdog trialing; there is no such thing as a level playing field even without drugs. Money and time will always impact rankings and placings in trials (I find I have to trial more to get better at trialing).

[Carson Crazies]

My June dog is on Amitriptyline as needed for her thunder-phobia. I only give it full time during the storm months, and as needed (yes, it even has an effect on her at one dose, which is amazing!) other times (like when we had thunder-snow last week).

 

She's on a very, very low dose, but it knocks enough of the edge off that she can now ride out a storm without shaking like a leaf or bolting indiscriminantly. She isn't zoned out on it, but she's gone from extreme to almost normal dog in a storm. We (we being June and I) tried prozac, ace, valium, thundershirts, valerian root, benadryl, counter-conditioning, Nutri-Calm, crating, DAP, desensitization, and the list goes on. None of them worked like this one does. I say all of that to say that sometimes it takes some tries to find the right thing (and I never could convince them to give her Xanax). In interest of full disclosure, though, I often use the meds in conjunction with the thundershirt, and we DID do a lot of counter-conditioning. Still do from time to time.

 

Quite frankly, if I had known this drug was going to be such a game changer for June I would have given it to her even when I was thinking to trial her. Even with the drugs knocking the edge off I don't think it would have made her a world beater, but it sure as heck would have made her life a whole lot better. In fact, it breaks my heart to think that she has lived most of her life without it when it could have made a real difference for her.

 

I don't think the meds are going to make a spectactular sheepdog out of a sucky sheepdog. In the case of a nice dog might it make a spectacular dog? Probably not. A little better than it is? Maybe. Worse than it is? Maybe. Most of that will just have to come out in the wash.

 

I've taken some before (back in another life) - and they didn't make me any more amazing or any less sucky than I already was . They mostly just knocked off the top and the bottom, and helped me to drift around somewhere closer to the middle [of the emotional spectrum]. If anything I would expect the dog to be slightly less sharp, but if it's enough to seriously interfere it might be worth investigating the dosage, or trying something different. In fact, we adjusted June's dose only just to the point that it began to be effective, but not enough so that it zoned her out.

 

I did work June this past summer while she was on the meds - and she seemed to me to be normal June. But that's not much of a test, eh? But Junie is almost 13, and is retired. So hard to say really.

 

Either way, I would weigh the benefits vs. risk and do what's best for the dog. But like Mark and Julie said, one of my biggest concerns, aside from the wellness of the dog, would be how it might impact breeding decisions.

[Liz P]

I don't know a single intact dog competing that is on medications to control anxiety. Maybe there are some, but I doubt many people would do it. My own dog was neutered just in case any of his anxiety had a basis in genetics. He takes drugs for PTSD and generalized anxiety disorder secondary to his PTSD (triggered by severe attacks by loose dogs). He quite literally would not be alive if it wasn't for his medications. He went from not eating (lost half his body weight), barely drinking, unwilling to go outside to potty and waking up from horrible nightmares to a semi normal dog thanks to years of intensive therapy and medications.

 

I have never trialed him, but I plan to try this spring. If someone thinks that because he takes medications to control his anxiety that he is at an advantage, well, that person is far crazier than my dog ever was or will be.

 

Maja, I can't speak to how it is in your country, but in North America vets are incredibly reluctant to prescribe behavior modifying drugs to pets for the very reasons Julie stated. I only have a handful of clients whose dogs take meds, and most of those are on situational drugs for storm phobia. I have one client whose dog is on prozac that was prescribed by a veterinary behaviorist for anxiety.

[RoseAmy]

Thanks for the replies everybody.

 

Like I said the owner of this dog was in way over their heads and can no longer cope with this dog. The do is VERY reactive and shows a good deal of fear aggression.

 

The vet..who I have known for years does not hand out drugs routinely. I can not keep this dog..I'm only trying to help place it. I do have someone that is just getting into herding that wants him. They have had dogs before, have done alot of obedience and would be willing and able to work with him.

 

It's the vet's thought that if we can use prozac to help rewire his brain some as we work on his behavior issues things will progress faster. As I get a handle on the best way to help him I can be working with what hopefully will be his new family.

 

Just for the record he has just been neuter..per vet's advice..his new family plan on using him to start learning to herd..They are not looking for a top trial dog..just something to learn with..and get started learning the herding ropes so to speak..

[G. Festerling]

Again just to clarify, I asked my questions not in regard to any specific dog.

[red russel]

didnt' need to be said.

[Maja]

That's good news then (about vets not over-prescribing).

 

It's the vet's thought that if we can use prozac to help rewire his brain some as we work on his behavior issues things will progress faster. As I get a handle on the best way to help him I can be working with what hopefully will be his new family.

 

That sounds very sensible.

 

Maja

[Pam Wolf]

It sounds to me that the OP is using drugs in conjunction with behaviour modification work-which is the proper way to use drugs to control behaviour problems. I see no problem with training the dog for stock work when the dog is undergoing medical treatment for a behaviour problem.

 

As for competing (which it sounds like is a ways off) hopefully the dog will be off medication for anxiety when competing-but I am sure others use medications on dogs while competing (as do handlers)-not condoning it, just recognizing the fact.

 

I would hope the OP finds a knowledgable and considerate instructor who can help the dog through it's anxieties.

 

for those condeming the use of medication-well, A:not all dogs are properly bred and B:often people screw up even good breeding. If someone is willing to help a dog why should they get blasted for it?

 

Medications can be a tool, like a voice, line, clicker, stick, whip or whatever. It should not be abused, and should be used in conjunction with behaviour modification therapy, but don't just assume because a dog is on medication that the situation is not warrenting medication. No assume that the owners caused this problem.

[nmcreel]

Just found this old thread and it was very useful. I have a student with a 13 month old BC who was rescued from a farm tied out at 8 months. The unsocialized dog had severe aggression issues and one time the owner showed up to class with bad injuries from breaking up a fight. She went to several behaviorists and then finally a vet who prescribed Fluoxetine (Prozac). I didn't know this and at 3 weeks in the dog stopped incessantly circling and could listen, recall and stop with a lot less effort. The next week the student showed up with visiting 7 year old boy walking the dog on leash and he kissed it on the face!!! I freaked since they were now at MY class and disallowed him to put his head near her face. The dog was fine though and had no reaction. The dog is now about 6 weeks into the therapy and owner and dog have had continued rapid improvement and have had no bad aggression incidents since the drug therapy was started.

I have a dog with "Border Collie in the suburbs syndrome". He is terrified of trucks--garbage trucks especially. He cannot walk on any city street without extreme anxiety, and does not use our suburban yard to play. When I try to train him on simple agility tasks at home he becomes very OCD and relies on staring at my feet to comfort himself. For me the final straw was visiting my in-laws who live far from traffic down a mile dirt road in the forest with sheltering forest all around. He plays like a puppy there both inside and out which he has never done at my home. Oddly when we picked up this puppy I had some warning signs about the mother which I should have heeded. My Open dog (1 at the time), was playing with me at a small park in an urban loud town, and the mother's owner noted that no way could she let her dog out there as it would stress her too much...... Since the mother was a half sister to my dog in the park I didn't heed the warning. Because my pup expressed "Border Collie in the suburbs syndrome" I neutered him by a year since it was clear he would never be able to be bred. Anyways long story short my vet put my almost 4 year old dog on Fluoxetine this week. Changes don't happen for 3 weeks or more, but I hoping for a more joyful happy dog on a daily basis since I have seen what he can be.