Color Question

[freedomflyersflyball]

Ah, right. To collect the ducks.

Guineas aren't ducks... but ok...

[Laurae]

Oh, guinneas. I apologize! That makes all the difference!

 

I am sorry I'm being so snarky. It's just that the gathering of your fowl could be done by just about any herding dog, and doing this job successfully isn't any kind of standard to judge the breedworthiness of a particular dog. And there are a lot of border collies dying in shelters who could collect your fowl just as well as your current dog.

[freedomflyersflyball]

Oh, guinneas. I apologize! That makes all the difference!

lol Whats your point?

[Pam Wolf]

Guineas do not require much to move them into their pen at night- comne to think of it is is harder to bring in dairy cows at milking time. yes I have herded guineas, but that same dog could move stubborn ewes and goats without trouble too.

 

I think the point others have tried to make, is that you really should see the dog's full potential on stock before considering breeding, and then breed for work, not for colour or good flyball dogs. While ball chasing is drive, it is only one part of the drive that makes a Border Collie so good at what it does.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi again ~

 

I kind of feel bad for you, because I think you've unwittingly kicked a hornet's nest, here. But as you see, breeding for color is very much a negative on these boards.

 

I don't doubt your breeder suggested a future sire to put to your pup, when she's grown. It's clear that your breeder does breed for color, so of course she would suggest it, because your pup is pretty. However, I find it questionable on her part that she would do so, when speaking of a 7- or 8-week old pup. From the standpoint of a working border collie, that's a little irresponsible, because the pup's breeder can't possibly know what kind of quality that pup will show - or not - until it's much older. She can't know if its hips are good, what traits or temperament it will have, and most of all, she can't know if that pup is going to show much more than average working talent.

 

In short, she has no way to know if that sire would suit your bitch at all - save for the fact the colors might go nice together. That breeder is looking at color, she breeds for color and hence recommends color breeding. Which, as you've seen, sparks some pretty sharp responses on this board.

 

The question that should be asked, in my humble opinion, is this: "Does my dog/bitch offer something that will improve the breed, or perpetuate the best aspects of it?"

 

The fact that your dog herds well enough to bring in your fowl is not an indicator. If she's fast and speedy for flyball, that's not an indicator, either. If she's a pretty color ... that's even less of an indicator.

 

If you want a nice flyball dog that comes in a pretty color ... I'd say leave that sort of breeding to those already (unfortunately) doing it. The border collie breed does not need yet another litter of dogs of questionable, "good enough for me" working talent and certainly not another breeding for pretty colors. Border collies should be bred with a view to how the sire and dam best compliment each other's working strengths and weaknesses. Color, coat type, ear set, and other cosmetic details fall well behind those considerations.

 

Yes, flyball is fun, as is agility, and people enjoy doing it with their dogs. I get that. But the excellence the border collie brings to sports is inherent in the breed *because* of the athleticism that comes with the working talent. Color breeding has absolutely nothing to do with that, and in fact, the pursuit of color breeding can, and does, in just very few generations, dilute the talents the border collie is meant to have, because the border collie is who he is due to genetics! Tamper with the genetics, start breeding for cosmetic ideals, and it's not just the color of the coat that will change.

 

I'm sorry you're taking so much heat for a simple question. I can imagine you feel very frustrated and mistreated, and you're wondering what the *bleep* kind of elitists you've fallen among. But for many of us, to even bring up breeding for the sake of color is unthinkable. And for someone to have already recommended a sire for a baby pup about whom nothing is yet known is ... kind of not the best thing.

 

Anyhow, I hope you can understand why the backlash, and pardon our vehemence. There is so much dilution of the Border Collie breed out there - one need only look at the AKC to see that - that its easy to be reactive.

 

Best wishes to you and your puppy. I wish you many happy years together.

Respectfully submitted,

 

Gloria

 

The color question is just out of curiosity. it doesn't really matter I was just wondering. As for the getting small, fast, flyball dogs. That would just be a plus because is a pretty big part of my life and having dogs that are good and love doing it is a lot of fun.

 

When I said my dog has great herding instincts I mean she is great at what she does for ME. Like bringing in all of my Guineas for me. I didn't mean she was some great champ or anything. Just great for her jobs here, working on our land.

 

And like I said if she didn't turn out to be EVERYTHING I want, I would not breed her.

 

I have read the "Read This First" sticky and understand completely. I am glad there are people who are as passionate about this breed as all of you are.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Guineas are quite hard to work as they really scatter.......my dogs all work the Guineas and they learn all about putting too much pressure on them....too much and POOF....they bolt everywhere

 

 

BUT...

 

I do not use that as my breeding criteria.

 

In fact, I have the full sister, Rainey, to the fastest flyball Border Collie (DeltaBLuez Anson aka Goose in 2011)....he was sold to a flyball home and fixed as part of the deal......I had NUMEROUS offers of people wanting to buy Rainey as she is fast and tiny and loves to fetch. As well as people wanting pups out of her.

 

I am not going to bred her.

 

Why?

 

At this point she is not making MY criteria for breeding. She is great on the farm, good hips, eyes but not my top notch Open dog.....almost but not quite as of today.

 

 

The flyball people still wanted pups from her, even on a spay/nueter contract.

 

Your dog, your choice but what good are you doing for the breed?

 

And I don't mean in flyball....

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I do want to add if you dog did great in proving herself on the trial field or even a big sheep/cattle operation, the people would be giving you a different answer but at that young age, you can't make that determination. And let's say you dog was able to prove herself and the male you pick was also proven and had color, then you got your wish.....however I don't know of any that make that criteria....there might be but I don't know of them.

[WWBC]

Excellent questions being ask

[SS Cressa]

The only colors you could get if you bred a red/white to a red tri merle are: red/white, red tris, red merle, red tri merles. Not including if the dogs carry the dilute gene.

 

Some breeders know their lines enough to have a good idea as to what they will produce and what other lines out there that might compliment theirs line or those lines to avoid.

[freedomflyersflyball]

The only colors you could get if you bred a red/white to a red tri merle are: red/white, red tris, red merle, red tri merles. Not including if the dogs carry the dilute gene. :)/>/>

 

Some breeders know their lines enough to have a good idea as to what they will produce and what other lines out there that might compliment theirs line or those lines to avoid.

Thank you for just ANSWERING THE QUESTION.

Much appreciated!

[Liz P]

I answered your question way back in post #11. You are welcome.

[Smalahundur]

He, I do feel a bit for you freedomsflyerflyball (those are a lot of f´s), for stumbling into this minefield...

 

You probably don´t realize that the title and subtitle of you opening post has about the same effct on the crowd here as waving a red cloth in front of a bull that wasn´t in a very happy mood that particular day anyway.

 

To be honest it kinda happened to me too, and I have never even been interested in colors or breeding, got here because I needed advice on stockdog training. But I dared make a remark on the snarky, irritated replies someone else got in a similar topic as this. The slamming I received did make me wonder, why so passionate? And I found out. And they were right for slamming me (hello Julie ).

 

The thing is and I suspect that goes for you too, if you haven´t gotten really into the whole stockdog thing you don´t realize how defining (and fragile in terms of breeding) instinct/talent/ potential for the different aspects of working stock are for the border collie breed.

 

Also this is not your fault, there is a lot of confusing disinformation out there, just look for instance at the so called "herding tests", that give a very wrong idea of what herding is all about. And sadly the dog breeding world almost (almost) entirely consists of conformation/show breeding.

 

My advice is stick around, don´t get too riled about this (they mean well )

Whatever you plan on doing with your dog, there is a wealth of information here, and all those "snarky" folks are willing to spend a lot of time and energy on lengthy posts giving you valuable advice on any matter concerning your dog.

 

Welcome to the forum.

[frisbeegirl]

Well said !! and Yes I too have well shall we say open wide and insert foot !

[SoFreshSoClean]

You could just enjoy your dog(s) and play the sports you love, you know.

 

Another thing to think about - if you are considering signing a co-ownership contract with this breeder that will obligate you to breed this bitch in the future. You could really back yourself into a corner. I've seen others go through similar situations and they have had no choice in the breeding.

 

and just because a dog/bitch is good, doesn't mean they are great. I'm sure that your current BC is a good dog but are they "great"? Do they bring something to the table that is unique, extraordinary? Have they taken you to the podium, to a world record, to a breed record?

 

I'm not a fan of sport breeding and even less of a fan of those people out there breeding 18,000 litters of sport dogs - but at the very, very least - consider the idea of Good versus Great.

 

Even if you write off the people here as "those crazy herding people", take a moment to look at your dogs critically.

[geonni banner]

I too had my trial by fire when I arrived on the Border Collie Boards. It was a little startling, but among the fire-breathers were more level heads who made me see why the fire-breathers were so feisty, and they are doing a fairly good job of helping me with my dragon act.

 

No, these are not just another bunch of dog nutcases. Their case is sound. But it is beset by a world that can't grasp it. The true Border Collie is a bona fide endangered species. Because a Border Collie is a stock dog. A dog that is born of parents that have "Border Collie" on their registration papers, may look like what you expect a Border Collie look like, be smart, agile, athletic and have a great personality. But In my not-so-humble-opinion, it isn't really a Border Collie unless it can work stock of varying types in varying conditions - and do it very well.

 

I appreciate that your dog helps you get your Guinea Fowl rounded up. Good dog! Useful dog. A 4-legged farm hand is a good thing to have. A talented Flyball dog is a fun and rewarding thing to have. But it is an absolute must that a Border Collie be very good stock dog indeed to be worthy of being bred. But it also takes a person with a lot of experience with stock dogs to carry a dog's talents forward and improve upon them in his/her offspring. With all due respect, you are not that person. And there is a very good chance that wonderful as your dog may be; it's not that dog.

 

Stick around. Soak up the good stuff available here. But get your dogs fixed.