Need ideas with basic puppy training ect

[Gary_and_Karen]

I haven't posted as much recently as Xena has been keeping me busy with normal puppyhood antics, (not complaining at all, it is well worth the work to have such a loving new friend :-) .....she is napping right now so I am getting in a quick post :-)

 

I'll have to post more questions on this thread as time allows, but for starters -

 

(for a reference point - Xena is about 9 1/2 weeks old now)

 

(our previous adoption was a 5 month old about 15 years ago, so this is the youngest we have had :-)

 

We just received our crate yesterday and I am going to assemble it today (Midwest iCrate Folding Single Door Dog Crate; Size: Large 42L x 28W x 30H inches)

 

1.) Is she too young to start crate training, if not, any good tips on the first few days.

 

2.) She very occasionally gets in a rowdy mood where she will nip at your hands and pants legs and pull on them, I had searched the forum and one post (from June 2012) said they had good success with handling it like the mother dog would, holding her by the scruff of the neck and growling, has anyone else had simular success with that approach ? .....here is a link to that post for reference -

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=33462&view=findpost&p=419805

 

3.) How much exercise would be ok at 9 - 10 weeks, she has a lot of energy, but I heard you have to be careful to not over exercise puppies.

 

 

.....I'll be posting more puppy questions as I have time :-)

[Jexa]

Never too early to start crate training. With one that young your only big concern will be letting her empty her small bladder often enough. Do you have a divider for the crate? Early on when you are housebreaking you want her crate to be small enough she can't go potty in the corner. There are a lot of threads about crate training that are worth a search, but the bottom line is to make the crate a really wonderful place and take small steps - if she's uncomfortable take her back to a level she's ok with. Just a couple minutes at a time spaced out through the day will go a long way, as will high value treats and heaps of praise.

 

A couple other people (Gloria, maybe?) have talked about saying "ouch!" and stopping the play when a puppy nips, and I've also had good success with that.

 

I certainly wouldn't be taking a 9 week old puppy on a 3 mile run with me, but if you avoid letting her repetitively jump or stress those joints, I wouldn't worry too much about her exercise. Lots of play and short periods of training should tucker her out without stressing her out.

[Gideon's girl]

When I've had a litter of puppies in the past, I start crate training before they are weaned, so there is no too young for a pup that has already gone to it's forever home. Just start giving it a chew toy or a food treat in the crate and only crate for short periods at a time during the day. If you're going to crate her at night, which I recommend at least at first because you can't watch a puppy when you're asleep, put her crate right by your bed so if she fusses at first you can stick your fingers in there to comfort her.

 

I found scruffing German Shepherd Puppies or Malinois to work well because they are not at all sensitive to human displeasure until they learn to be. However, I have found that BC puppies are much more sensitive and think that scruffing would be much too harsh a correction. Usually a sharp word and a short crating is all that is necessary to convince a BC to settle down and think about what cause said circumstances. That being said, I would scruff a BC if it started snapping at my face. That's the ultimate no no in my book.

 

The rule of thumb for exercise is 5 minutes of formal exercise for every month old that the pup is. And no strenuous exercise, jumping, climbing, etc... That doesn't mean they can never jump, climb, whatever. That means you should not be the cause of it or encourage it to continue even a little past when the pup would stop on its own and you have to watch them closely for over doing it if they are crazy about some activity and might hurt themselves.

 

Have a ton of fun with your pup! There is nothing like raising one from a baby.

[Gloria Atwater]

 

A couple other people (Gloria, maybe?) have talked about saying "ouch!" and stopping the play when a puppy nips, and I've also had good success with that.

 

I certainly wouldn't be taking a 9 week old puppy on a 3 mile run with me, but if you avoid letting her repetitively jump or stress those joints, I wouldn't worry too much about her exercise. Lots of play and short periods of training should tucker her out without stressing her out.

 

 

Yup, I'm a pro-ponent of the "OUCH!" thing. It's worked on several puppies for us. When the pup gets rough, I jerk away, yelp a very sharp, aggrieved, "OUCH!" and give the puppy the most hurt-feelings look I can muster. If he thinks I'm fooling and comes back again, I do it again. Most likely those loud, sharp, wounded-human yelps are going to get his attention. Then I just walk away. Play over, for the moment. And then I pretend it never happened and invite him back for a nice, calm pet.

 

I do not believe in scruffing a border collie that young, and in fact have rarely ever needed to scruff one, period. It's not a thing I believe in, as it can make a BC pup hand-shy.

 

Crate training - start now, and yes, if you have dividers, make it small-ish so she'll be less apt to just potty in one end of it. Make it a happy place, offer treats and goodies and TOYS. You've already gotten good advice on that.

 

As for exercise, at that age, they pretty much exercise themselves. Give her toys, let her romp around and beat up her favorite stuffy-whatevevers and she'll tip over when she's had enough. They aren't ready for anything heavy on the joints until several months on.

 

And yes, please pictures!

 

~ Gloria

[Gary_and_Karen]

Thanks for the ideas from everyone !

 

I don't think scruffing would be preferred either, but is making the mother's growl sound supposed to work ?

 

I tried the growl and even barked, and my "bark" only seemed to intensify her actions and she barked back several times so I guess that doesn't work.

 

I searched several dog web sites and while they offer some varying techniques to try, they all seem to include loudly saying something like "OUCH" and then giving the dog a "time out" for about 5 minutes every time they bite too hard, and you all have suggested the same thing so I guess I'll focus on that method.

 

I would have to give her time out in the crate since she can't be left unsupervised yet.

 

I do have a divider for the crate and have it at about the halfway point that that gives her the right amount of room for her present size.

 

How long sould it normally take to get puppies to stop biting too hard ?

 

One article said up to about 3 to 5 months of age, but I hope it's sooner than that as she will be about 10 weeks old in a few days.

 

I understood up front that puppies take some work and I am commited to giving her a forever home, she is our new beloved and she is worth the effort reguardless of how frustrating it can seem right now with her having these daily biting sessions.

 

How I look forward to her getting back to just wanting to be loved and cuddled like the first few days before the biting started :-/

 

I know there are various reasons for biting, including teething, trying to be the "alpha" ect., if this biting does indicate she is trying to assert the alpha role, are there any other methods besides stopping her biting to let her know I am the alpha ?

[Cynthia P]

And sometimes the biting and grabbing pants is an indicator that they need a nap. Like a temper tantrum in a 3 year old. If the ouch doesn't work and they don't temper their behaviour, I give them a nap time in the crate with a yummy chewy object. My puppies are not very bitey by 10 or 11 weeks

 

Never too early to start crate training. When I have puppies I start them in crates at 5 or 6 weeks old; with another puppy and by 8 weeks they graduate to their own crates. I don't let my pups go until 10 weeks on advice of my vet so they get lots of time to learn bite inhibition with their littermates!

 

She isn't trying to be alpha, she is exploring the world with her teet. Which is what puppies do. Give her rope toys and other things that are fun to sink the little shark teeth into rather than your legs and hands

 

Cynthia

[mum24dog]

I know there are various reasons for biting, including teething, trying to be the "alpha" ect., if this biting does indicate she is trying to assert the alpha role, are there any other methods besides stopping her biting to let her know I am the alpha ?

 

One general piece of advice - dispense with the notion of "alpha" status. It doesn't work in the way many people believe even between dogs and most certainly has no application to human/canine relationships.

 

Dogs do what works to get them what they want - they aren't trying to take over the world. Give them a good enough reason to cooperate with you and compliance will follow (well with most dogs it will given consistency). We have control of the resources the dog wants and have more imaginitive and creative brains which should give us the edge in manipulating them into a way of behaving that we deem acceptable without having to risk conrontation by believing we have to enforce our superiority.

 

In the case of puppy biting and the advice you have been given the pup wants to play. Biting means the opportunity to do so is withdrawn. Pup soon realises the connection and plays nicely - nothing more complicated or status dependent than that.

[Gary_and_Karen]

And sometimes the biting and grabbing pants is an indicator that they need a nap. Like a temper tantrum in a 3 year old. If the ouch doesn't work and they don't temper their behaviour, I give them a nap time in the crate with a yummy chewy object. My puppies are not very bitey by 10 or 11 weeks

 

Never too early to start crate training. When I have puppies I start them in crates at 5 or 6 weeks old; with another puppy and by 8 weeks they graduate to their own crates. I don't let my pups go until 10 weeks on advice of my vet so they get lots of time to learn bite inhibition with their littermates!

 

She isn't trying to be alpha, she is exploring the world with her teet. Which is what puppies do. Give her rope toys and other things that are fun to sink the little shark teeth into rather than your legs and hands

 

Cynthia

 

"Temper tantrum" seems to fit :-)

 

 

We had to order a crate and just started using it yesterday and she will have what seems like a temper tantrum with repeated yaps, then also do some whining, but from what I read you are supposed to ignore it and view it as having "tough love" as much as you don't like to hear them cry and just want to cuddle them.

 

We got her a couple nylabone teething bones, a Kong ball, and a Kong thing you put treats inside, also she likes to chew on old towels we put on the floor for her, they seem to be tough evough that she has not been able to shred them.

 

I had read where some feel that rawhide can be too risky with them being able to chew off pieces.

 

How about those eatable hard treat bones that it takes them a while to eat ?

 

(I am leary about picking treats/foods that are safe, especially after what we heard about some of the problems with bad stuff in some treats)

 

When we adopted her from an SPCA last Monday they said they only had her a couple days, the owner was not able to keep all the puppies from a litter and turned several in, she was supposed to be about 8 weeks old when we adopted her so I guess this next Monday will make her about 9 weeks old.

 

That would be great if Xena got over her biting by 10 or 11 weeks like yours did !

[Gary_and_Karen]

One general piece of advice - dispense with the notion of "alpha" status. It doesn't work in the way many people believe even between dogs and most certainly has no application to human/canine relationships.

 

Dogs do what works to get them what they want - they aren't trying to take over the world. Give them a good enough reason to cooperate with you and compliance will follow (well with most dogs it will given consistency). We have control of the resources the dog wants and have more imaginitive and creative brains which should give us the edge in manipulating them into a way of behaving that we deem acceptable without having to risk conrontation by believing we have to enforce our superiority.

 

In the case of puppy biting and the advice you have been given the pup wants to play. Biting means the opportunity to do so is withdrawn. Pup soon realises the connection and plays nicely - nothing more complicated or status dependent than that.

 

Thanks, so the loud "OUCH" with a 5 minute "time out" in her cage is the recommended method for success then right ?

 

How long should it take before the she gets past the hard biting using that method ?

 

I would definitely prefer the idea of it not being some complicated thing of asserting an "alpha" role :-)

[G. Festerling]

I guess I am insane. ;)/>

I don't worry much about the puppy biting and nipping. They are mostly playing, exploring, learning their place.

My new kid was horrible. Most of the time I actually would entice her into play. And if she got too carried away I would touch her somehwere on her body and tell her no until she got it. So she I suppose learned a bit of appropriate play more than anything else! If I ever put her up, then it probably coincides with me having to not be able to pay attention to her.

Now at 15 weeks she is mostly over it.

 

This does however not apply to a pup that clearly "looses" it for some reason. At that point I will gently scruff one and put them up. But not a time out. Flat up till I have more time later and you are damn well over it!

[rushdoggie]

 

How long sould it normally take to get puppies to stop biting too hard ?

 

 

My 6 month old is just now reaching that point.

How I look forward to her getting back to just wanting to be loved and cuddled like the first few days before the biting started :-/

 

She will...you will get into a routine where she understands theres playtime, quiet time, cuddle time. It can take a few weeks to get here.

 

I know there are various reasons for biting, including teething, trying to be the "alpha" ect.,

 

LOL, shes a baby, shes playing too rough, shes not trying to dominate you I promise!

[Falon's Mom]

Well I can say that the "OUCH" method does work quite well. Sage is now 13 weeks and though he does have bite "control" (I wouldn't call it inhibition per say.) I have had to scruff him once when he cornered our clawless cat while playing and I did put him up in his crate for a while, nap time really. He has since not gone after either of our cats. Usually what I have done so far when he has goteen to hard in his chewing or biting is to go OUCH and turn away from him, a couple minutes later I would give him one of either of his antlers or hoofs to chew hard on instead of me. Keeps him happy keeps me and the kids happy too.

[Gary_and_Karen]

Thanks for the continued ideas and sharing of experiences from everyone !

 

I sure hope it won't take till she is 6 months old before the everyday hard biting stops, but my love for her gives me the patience if it does take that long :-)

 

How long does it usually take a puppy to get used to being put in a crate without whining and barking for a half hour or more ?

 

I was checking to see what long lasting chew things I could use to keep her occupied while crated, something that would not be eaten in 5 minutes, her nylabone works for very short periods (and of course is non-eatable), but I need something that would keep her occupied longer while caged. We live in a small town and the nearest Petsmart would take us about 2 1/2 hours there and back and time in the store, so we would seldom travel that far, so in our small town we have a Walmart and a grocery store and I am trying to find the best of what is available locally. I just checked the Walmart web site and here are 2 possibilities, is there any reason why either of these should not be used -

 

Rachel Ray Nutrish Real Chicken & Veggies Chew Bones

 

Busy Bone Small / Medium Dog Purina Dog Treats

 

A customer comment said the "Busy Bone" lasts a very long time, but I prefer the "Rachel Ray" as they seem to have better ingredients, but there was no customer comments on how long they last.

[Cynthia P]

I use knuckle bones for chewing; just larger size soup bones from the butcher. If it has a lot of marrow you may want to scoop that out, it can upset tummies...mine are used to it. Also have stuffed kongs or other things with peanut butter or cream chesse and frozen them.

 

So they get to go to bed with something yummy; Mine generally take a week or so of having a few minutes of whining in the crate. Stick with it and don't give them any verbal reinforcement by trying to make them feel better. Sometimes out of sight works well

 

You can play games like go into the crate and get the cookie, and let them come right back out. Go in get the toy, come back out, go in and get 3 or 4 cookies, shut the door, throw in a cookie, open the door, let them out. And don't let them out if they are screaming...unless they really really have to go potty...and even then, try to wait for a break in the hysterics

 

Cynthia

[rushdoggie]

Just to be clear, mine stopped biting hard when playing at 5 or 6 months, but grew out of the demented-mosquito-biting-at-everything-that-passed-by-him stage a little earlier than that! He still plays too rough now and then but he is getting it.

 

I use bully sticks a lot for chewies. I buy them in large quantities online to save money. I have also used the Himalayan chews and split antlers.

[D'Elle]

Just be sure that no treat you give her is made in China. Sometimes you really have to look at the bottom at the fine print, but make sure.

[Gary_and_Karen]

I am leary about using any kind of real bones after reading where someone said even non-poultry bones can splinter and have small pieces causing serious problems.

 

I definitely know to avoid using any food products from China.

 

She has had about 5 time outs today between late afternoon evening for hard biting, but earlier in the day she was on very good behavior, it is like a Jekyll/Hyde transformation on most days :-)

 

I really don't like having to crate her that frequently in one day, I'd rather have her in my lap or on the bed behaving herself, but she is not learning too fast yet in that area, but she HAS figured out the refridgerator is where some food goodies are kept and sometimes will "camp out" in front of it or come running when someone opens it :-)

[Falon's Mom]

And don't let them out if they are screaming...unless they really really have to go potty...and even then, try to wait for a break in the hysterics

 

Cynthia

 

 

THIS^ is the best advice I have ever gotten about crate training.

On the subject of bones, be sure that you get either fresh or smoked bones. It is when the bones are heated that they become dangerous to dogs. The bone becomes more brittle with heat. It is good to always check over the bones regularly for any splintering or cracking. Though I think at her age she should be fine with a leg bone hallowed out.

 

There are others that will correct me if I am wrong on anything. Hope this helps.

[dmadrid]

I really don't like having to crate her that frequently in one day, I'd rather have her in my lap or on the bed behaving herself, but she is not learning too fast yet in that area,

 

Don't feel bad about having to crate her often during the day. She is learning a lot of important lessons about life right now (if I bite Dad too hard, I have to stop playing; when I'm in my crate, I get a yummy chewy; it's OK to be by myself in the crate; etc.). I'm sure she is still getting plenty of interaction and exercise when she is out with you... probably as much as her little brain can handle.

 

Think of it this way - if you want her to be the awesome, polite, well-behaved dog that you know she can be, she is going to have to learn that there are consequences to her actions, and that she can't just do whatever she wants. By giving her some time-outs in the crate, you are helping her learn this lesson. And once things start clicking with her, she will begin to earn more and more freedom by behaving nicely.

 

When I got my pup at 6 months old, she had to be crated a LOT at first. She was thinking about chewing stuff, and eating the cats, and bothering the other dogs, and all kinds of stuff. So, she had time-outs. Lots of them. But, as time went on, she began to earn more and more freedom. By 14 months (maybe even earlier?) she was able to be loose with the other dogs all the time, the crate got packed away, and she's even decent to the kitties. It took a bit of work, but she earned her freedom.

 

 

Also, I saw you say earlier that your pup is chewing on towels and stuff. I would stop that RIGHT AWAY. It's probably pretty adorable right now, and her little puppy teeth aren't strong enough to make any serious damage... but, give her a few weeks, and her new teeth will. By that point, if the habit is entrenched, you'll have an uphill battle to fight in breaking it... or you'll have to commit to being super diligent about keeping her away from fabric items (your towels, throw rugs, blankets, jeans, socks, etc.) Should you be unable to keep her from chewing on fabric, you run the (very serious) risk of her ingesting fabric and it creating a blockage in her intestine. It's both expensive and life-threatening. So, stick with dog-appropriate chew toys and bones, and you will all be happier. (The frozen kong is your friend. Buy a few more kongs so you can always have one ready to go in the freezer)

[rushdoggie]

...and keep this advice from my smart friend Robin in mind: Puppies Are Hell.

 

Now don't get me wrong, they are also fun, silly, snuggly, sweet and all kinds of good stuff. But they are also a huge amount of work, loud, dirty, inconvenient, etc. They take a long time to mature and need a ton of guidance between now and then, and they will choose the most inconvenient time to require the most guidance.

 

But they do grow up, the mature, and that time you invest now pays back with an adult dog who has manners, understands what you want from her and brings you all the joy a relationship with a dog can bring.

 

This too shall pass.

 

[Sue R]

I am leary about using any kind of real bones after reading where someone said even non-poultry bones can splinter and have small pieces causing serious problems.

My favorite bones are all raw - chicken (we feed backs, lots of bone and not much meat or fat on them); beef (marrow bones with excess marrow scooped out, knuckle bones, rib bones, and neck bones - my favs are the rib and neck bones); pork neck bones (also occasional pork steak bones); lamb bones (neck are great, all others are still good).

 

The worst that ever happens with my dogs is that a strong chewer will swallow a piece that is too big to digest, and he/she barfs it up within a day or two.

 

I get the impression that you want to be absolutely safe about everything (the topic of dog food springs to mind) - I rather feel that *everything* in a dog's life has some inherent risk and choosing as well as I reasonably can is the best option.

 

Remember that non-real bones pose their own risks - one of which is that if a dog swallows a chunk, it is likely non-digestible. There have been horror stories about rawhides, Greenies, Nylabones, you name it. I prefer to choose something natural, like raw bones, for chewing rather than something manmade and sourced from who-knows-where.

 

Choose raw bones and not ones that are too small and might be swallowed whole.

[Gary_and_Karen]

.....so real bones are ok as long as they are not cooked ?

 

How about real bones like these from Walmart, are they ok, they seem to have good customer reviews if the reviews are legitimate -

 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Smokehouse-Rib-Bone-12-Dogs/8222884

 

and here are some eatable non-real bones I was considering, any thoughts on these -

 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Busy-Bone-Small-Medium-Dog-Purina-Dog-Treats-7oz-Dogs/11994474

 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Nutrish-Real-Chicken-Veggies-Chew-Bones-6.3-oz-Dogs/19720747

 

Various places I have read both pro and con, that they are fine or to avoid them, even the Rachel Ray ones, so it is perplexing to know what to believe sometimes :-/

[Gloria Atwater]

I don't trust those smoked bones because they *are* cooked - or something. How exactly are they processed, anyhow? At any rate, they're not plain, raw, natural bones and I wouldn't trust them not to splinter. Plus ... where are they made? USA or China?

 

I'd look for raw ribs, raw soup bones or knuckle bones at the supermarket.

 

The other stuff, Purina treats and whatnot, aren't bad, so long as they are made in USA. They're just candy for dogs. But definitely, definitely check labels and if it doesn't say Made in USA, don't buy!

 

~ Gloria

[Sue R]

What Gloria said! Raw bones from the meat department - what could be better? Smoked bones? Does a dog need smoke flavoring or smokiness to like a bone? All that smoking provides is shelf life (think meat preservation, like ham or bacon) and appeal to owners (who think it sounds yummy).

 

You will find a lot of smoked items labelled as from Brazil and other countries. Not saying that's a bad thing but what could be better than human-grade, USDA-inspected, bones from the meat counter? And, in the long run, they will be cheaper, also.

 

As for other treats, sure, I feed some - I get them at my pet food dealer, not at Wal-Mart or the grocery store (like dog food, don't feed what you can get there because it's not going to be the good stuff). Plato, Zukes, other made-in-the-USA brands that are made of quality ingredients and not junk, and certainly not sourced from China.

 

Do my dogs eat some junk? Our guilty pleasure is Milk Bone Trail Mix. Not a bad ingredient list for a treat, and in limited amounts. What I do is put a few in my treat pouch along with a handful of better treats. Right now, I'm feeding a kibble that is very small from Earth Made as my primary treat as my dogs are not fussy one bit about treats and, this way, I am treating them with something good, healthy, and nutritious. That way, occasionally they get a piece of trail mix (and I break those little biscuits into two or three pieces to dole out, and the chewy round pieces also into two or three, and the chewy squares into as many as six or nine bits - like I said, my dogs aren't fussy and size doesn't matter for treats) but mostly their treats are the nutritious kibble.

 

This works for me, takes next to no effort to implement, and I know my dogs are eating healthfully. And the raw bones are excellent for maintaining clean teeth, healthy gums, and nice breath (I only semi-thaw the chicken backs and other bones for even more chewing).

 

One dog is 10, has beautifully clean teeth without tartar, and sweet breath (and, yes, she's got some tooth wear from chewing but nothing to be concerned about). One dog is almost 10, and just had his teeth cleaned for the first time ever (in conjunction with sedation for another reason) - he is not the vigorous bone-chewer the other two are, and had a bit of tarter build-up on the buccal surfaces of his left-hand teeth, most of which I was able to remove manually with my fingernail.

 

And that reminds me, it's chicken back day here at our house so I'd better head down to the freezer and get some!

[Gary_and_Karen]

Being in a very small town a Walmart and a grocery store are the main places to get such stuff from.

 

I told my vet we were going to feed her Purina One Smartblend puppy food (real chicken is listed as the first ingredient) and she had no problem with that.

 

Anyone have any experience with that food ?

 

 

.......As far as raw bones, wouldn't they grow bacteria and go bad quickly ?

 

 

(I'm learning, just so much stuff to watch out for :-/