Help! my adopted rescue BC nips and growls!

[Olivia]

Actually prozac is on the $4 list at Wal-mart...

 

The big thing that sticks out to me is that you have perhaps tried a zillion things but you haven't stuck with one. The management and desensitization of a reactive dog or a dog that just doesn't have manners that are needed in this world of a house dog isn't done in a week, or month or two months. It is something you have to stick with and be consistent with for a long time. Choosing to try clicker training for a week and then deciding it isn't working isn't the right way of looking at it. Clicker training might be the way for this dog, you just didn't try it long enough.

 

When you said:

I guess I can see how the situations I described led to nipping BUT IMHO a dog should not bite in those situations -- they should be inhibited from biting humans, ever (unless they are clearly in danger) and that's the part I don't know how to teach -- how the dog can tell what is innocuous (a skreeching child ) VS. what is dangerous (a man in a mask with a gun!).

I think you again are thinking of just one type of dog. One type of dog will see a whirling child as a non-threat and a person stepping over their head as no problem. A second type of dog will never see those types of things as comfortable. She may learn to tolerate them but she will never be happy with them. I don't see why that's hard to understand. Every person is different in what they are comfortable with so why is it a stretch with understanding that with dogs? It is also a stretch, IMO, to say that dogs should be inhibited from biting people, ever. In the right circumstances, anything with teeth can and will bite. Heck, under the right circumstances I will bite! :-) Your old dog sounds like my old Carlie dog. She is perfect, bomb-proof with children, elderly, rowdy teenagers, other dogs, puppies, anything! (except for small furries that are fair game for chasing) I could pull burrs out of her huge tail all day long with no problems. I have never seen the amount of pressure it would take to make her snap but I am under no illusions that it is not there, she just has a longer fuse than many other dogs. My younger girl isn't nearly as comfortable around children, she will play fetch with them and will allow some petting but there is a limit and you can see her start to stiffen. I am always there to intervene and prevent children from trying to hug her so as to keep her fuse from getting too short. Doesn't mean she isn't as great of a dog as Carlie, just means that she has different needs than Carlie does.

 

If you ask me, how is a dog supposed to tell the difference between a screeching child and a man with a gun? Truly the screeching child sounds more dangerous to the dog than the man with the gun and I wouldn't blame the dog for reacting, especially if they had never been around children before, dogs don't know about guns.

 

Just my $0.02. Pick a routine and stick with it. Keep her away from triggers. Correct her when she growls. Give her plenty to do to stimulate her brain and body. See how she develops.

[juliepoudrier]

I am not saying people didn't suggest that. But they suggested in response to the serious problem you first presented—you've since backed way down from that initial description and analysis of your dog's behavior, and the responses you've received since then reflect this new current description. No one but you is bringing up euthanasia anymore. It is not helpful for you to continue to be AGHAST at the suggestions you received prior to your new description. You seem to be way too caught up being incredibly self-righteous to even try to understand what people have actually been suggesting since your modified version of events came out. Just stop going back to how everyone told that you had to put your dog down (which is really more completely inflammatory language, and it's one reason people are responding to you less patiently than you might prefer). Instead, make a list of all the suggestions that have been offered to you, decide which ones you will try, and then get off the bleeding computer and try them.

Hear, hear! As one of the people who mentioned euthanasia, I really am tired of the cry "All you told me was to kill my dog!"

 

Well, yes, because YOU said your dog was biting, and growling (which is a warning, as I explained in the other thread), that you were AFRAID of her, that a trainer had booted you for fear of being bit, etc. To borrow your excessive bold type, YOU and ONLY YOU presented a very bad picture of your dog. YOU said you were afraid of being sued. YOU said you were scared. What the hell did you expect people would say?

 

Now you're spending a great deal of time yelling that it's not biting, it's nipping and how could anything think that a dog should be PTS for NIPPING ferchrissake. We've all accepted your amended description and moved on. You for some reason are still hung up on the comments that arose from your original, apparently much-exaggerated description of her behavior.

 

Many people (on this thread and the other) have given you options to try. What about NILIF won't work for you? What about some of the other resources? Why won't THEY work? What part of changing YOUR RELATIONSHIP with the dog (which is the approach many of us would take and is the approach that you would take if you followed some of the advice given) do you not wish to do? Numerous people have made it clear that there is NO ONE ANSWER that will fix your dog. You have to try things and see what works and what doesn't. You have to learn from her what is needed. We can't do that for you. NILIF, for example, is about teaching the dog to look to you for leadership in all things. When applied successfully, the dog stops being so reactive and instead looks to you to determine how to react.

 

Yes, people are getting exasperated with you. WE're trying to help and we're getting back is a lot of complaining about ONE set of answers that might have been appropriate based on your original post. The rest of us have moved on from that. Why can't you?

 

Your dog probably growls because she is uncomfortable and is feeling stress. She is growling to warn you (or whomever) that she is reaching a breaking point. It is HER WAY of telling YOU (or whomever) that she is feeling trapped and uncomfortable. Until you can recognize the growling for what it is and better control her environment so that she feels more secure and less like you're going to let bad things happen, she's GOING TO growl. Look at this way: it's an early warning system TO YOU that SOMETHING is seriously worrying her. She is COMMUNICATING with you. Why isn't anyone telling you how to stop it? Because you don't want to stop it**. It should stop on its own once you take better care to manage her environment.

 

Anyway, I think you're now so upset with many of us that you're simply not hearing anything we say. Consider that your dog has a similar response: When she gets upset (i.e., encounters a trigger) she REACTS.

 

I honestly think that you need to learn to be her leader. That you need to exert much greater control over her immediate environment until you have been able to establish a better relationship with her and shown her that she can look to you for leadership, and then slowly work her up to being able to deal with things that have triggered her in the past, recognizing of course, that she may never be entirely comfortable or trustworthy in certain situations (e.g., squealing whirling dervish children).

 

Beyond that, we can't help you. You have to try things, take what feedback you get from Ladybug, and then proceed based on that feedback (success, partial succes, failure). Trial and error is pretty much the approach any of us would take in dealing with a dog with an unknown history that is exhibiting behaviors we don't like. There is no one-size-fits all answer. It seems that's what you might be hoping for, but it just doesn't exist.

 

**A dog that doesn't growl before it nips/bites is a much more serious problem. Then again, maybe the growling issue is separate from the nipping issue? It's not clear from your posts.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

 

Thanks for your post. It is encouraging to hear some positive stories. I am glad your first dog worked out eventually. I had a terrier before my border collie, and boy, I would have never put her down or given her up, but she was a total handful. No more terriers for me!

 

 

I think it's clear to everyone that you don't want to euthanize your dog and that you are open to trying things. You're also doing a lot to work with her. What I found very difficult to reconcile was how incremental the progress really is on many things. It just takes a lot of consistent time and many miles. You've only had LadyBug for four months, I think. This nipping behavior is relatively new, right? You'll probably have an easier time of things if you can find a way to shift your expectations for how quickly this can be solved. It'll be easier on you, too, and give you a chance to develop a more solid foundation with Ladybug so that she trusts you to keep her out of situations that aren't good for her. You're starting that now, but it'll take a while for her to trust it . You'll have progress and slip backs. That's totally normal and happens to every dog trainer.

 

I guess the sum of what I have read here is that it is more of a management problem than an actual training problem -- containment, and maybe de-sensitization over a LONG period of time.

 

Right now it's both. Given what you know about Ladybug (and as much as possible independently of what your previous dog was like), what do you hope for her? What do you two enjoy doing together? Build on those things. Focus on the things she's doing that you like and really see them. It's hard because dogs do frustrating and annoying things. Keep a "Things I love about Ladybug" journal and write at least one thing in it each day (don't laugh--I've done exactly this when dealing with a training challenge and it helps).

 

I guess I can see how the situations I described led to nipping BUT IMHO a dog should not bite in those situations -- they should be inhibited from biting humans, ever (unless they are clearly in danger) and that's the part I don't know how to teach -- how the dog can tell what is innocuous (a skreeching child ) VS. what is dangerous (a man in a mask with a gun!).

 

Of course they shouldn't, but they do. It doesn't make it easier to work with to keep beating yourself up over the fact that she shouldn't. She does. That's just the reality you have to work with. Dogs shouldn't bark at the door, but they do. They shouldn't pee in the house, but sometimes they do. They shouldn't try to eat the food off your plate, but sometimes they do. What we want them to do is often completely contrary to what they are inclined to do. That they do so many of the things we want them to do is pretty amazing, really.

 

I have a dog here who wants to kill one of our other dogs--and will try at any opportunity. He shouldn't--there's no reason for him to feel that way and anyway, the dogs in our pack have to get along. But he does and it means that it's my responsibility to do something about it. What I do is keep the dogs separated. It's a royal pain and I hate that one of them is always crated. But, I wasn't willing to rehome one of them and I couldn't train this out of him, so this was the option I chose.

 

You've chosen to keep Ladybug. That may mean that you have to keep her away from people forever. It may not--time will tell you that. But remember, whatever the circumstances of her acquisition, you've chosen to keep her. Make the best of that choice and accept the consequences of that choice. If you own your decision instead of feeling like there's really nothing at all to do, you may be able to start seeing that you have a lot more options that it seems like right now. You wanted this dog by virtue of the fact that you have decided to keep her. As people suggested you euthanize her, you recoiled because you want her and you love her. Trust that and build on it.

 

Think about the things you *can* do and then try them. Experiment a little bit (without putting the dog in difficult positions). Just try and ease off worrying about the nipping right now-you've got a strategy for it right now and that's working, right? Let that be o.k. for a few weeks while you get your bearings. It is o.k. If you crate her off, give her something to keep her occupied so she doesn't feel so sorry for herself. A bone to chew; a frozen Kong, whatever.

 

Have you tried training a really fun, silly thing--like spinning in a circle or shaking with both paws. If you start finding the things that are fun with Ladybug, it might help you develop your training relationship with her and then you can build on that and she'll understand what you're doing as you train her to accept strange people in your house.

 

I completely believe you are trying everything you can think of and that you have a situation that you didn't bargain for, didn't want and don't entirely know how to handle, but that you're doing your best to figure out what to do. You totally get credit for that--it's not easy dealing with issues that are so unexpected and that you don't really want to deal with. But you can and you've chosen to.

[mbc1963]

I guess I can see how the situations I described led to nipping BUT IMHO a dog should not bite in those situations -- they should be inhibited from biting humans, ever

 

In an ideal world that would be true. (Well, actually, I think any dog will bite given the right provocation - just as any human will kick or bite or punch given the right provocation.) But, your IMHO there is simply not the case for this dog. So, let that go - at least for now. That's not the world you live in. For now, you've got a dog that nips. (I do believe others are right in that the dog is fending for herself against these triggers, because she hasn't yet learned that you will protect her.)

 

that's the part I don't know how to teach -- how the dog can tell what is innocuous (a skreeching child ) VS. what is dangerous

 

So, to this dog, at this moment, a screeching child is as threatening as a masked man with a gun. It may be that way her whole life. My dog Buddy would much rather have a CALM masked man with a gun at the door than screeching child! (And some days, after spending all day with my 8th grade students, so might I!)

 

I have never taught my dog to be calm around screeching children. I don't have kids, and it's super-easy for me to keep him a good distance from poorly-behaved ones. On the other hand, we walk by a day care, and the little kids flock to the fence and coo at him, and he will sit very calmly and let them watch him and fuss over him. He actually kind of likes little ones, and knows that they're prone to drop animal crackers and Cheerios.

 

What did I specifically do about getting my dog calm around (normal, non-screeching) children? I took him to the park and lay him down yards and yards from a mother and toddler, so he could see the toddler move around. I allowed him to approach strollers with small children in them, and gave him good treats when he was calm. He seemed to understand that stroller-ized babies couldn't get to him, so started being comfortable with them - and I would encourage the older ones to feed him cookies. (He's always been amazingly gentle at taking cookies from human hands. I think that's an odd benefit of his being so skittish.)

 

I'm talking about the course of several years, mind you. I wouldn't let him near a kid until I knew he had developed a tolerance for them, and some degree of safety when near them. The key to all progress with him seems to be his knowing that I wasn't going to put him into an unsafe situation. I redid obedience class under my original trainer after a year or so, and the trainer said, "Boy, he really trusts you, doesn't he?" His confidence in ME to manage the scary stuff lets him off the hook for managing it himself.

 

Specific to triggers of any kind: don't get close enough to the trigger to set the dog off. For weeks and months, stay outside the danger zone. It might mean being a half-block from a child at the beginning, or it might simply mean 10 feet. Then... move a little closer, but still in a safe area. Reward and treat and just normalize the proximity. Then get closer again. You'll know when the dog gets overstressed. Back up. Work the greater distance again until you know from your dog that you can move closer. (Patricia McConnell? Suzanne Clothier? I can't remember who taught me this.)

 

If you were to see me walking my dog around the neighborhood, you'd see me now and again stepping off the sidewalk and up onto a lawn - that's because I can see a trigger (kid on scooter, grouchy dog, odd-gait man) coming down the sidewalk, and I know I have to increase Buddy's distance or he'll get nervous. (His nervousness is largely harmless, now - but I would still keep him under threshold rather than let him get spooked.) It no longer occurs to me that I shouldn't have to do this, or that there's anything wrong with my dog because I do - it simply is what it is.

 

Eventually, your dog will learn that a child isn't something to be scared of; she'll learn that children are a normal part of your life. She might never get used to screeching, though she might. Are screeching children something she needs to be exposed to on a regular basis? Or can she be crated away when they visit? A lot of dogs in childless households just don't get to interact with kids much. They're little kinetic balls of unpredictability, which makes them nerve-wracking to dogs like mine. No harm, no foul.

 

Mary

[Laurel962]

Hear, hear! As one of the people who mentioned euthanasia, I really am tired of the cry "All you told me was to kill my dog!"

Well, yes, because YOU said your dog was biting, and growling (which is a warning, as I explained in the other thread), that you were AFRAID of her, that a trainer had booted you for fear of being bit, etc. To borrow your excessive bold type, YOU and ONLY YOU presented a very bad picture of your dog. YOU said you were afraid of being sued. YOU said you were scared. What the hell did you expect people would say

 

 

I am sorry, but even though I was upset when typing that first post, I NEVER said that I personally was scared of Ladybug -- I have always said she is adoring and loving towards me.

 

I said I was AFRAID SHE WOULD BITE SOMEONE and I'd be sued, and she would be put down by the county. That she is scaring OTHER PEOPLE, and they won't let me visit.

 

I honestly tried very hard to explain that there is a clear difference between a nip and a tearing bite that breaks the skin -- and we may know this as dog owners -- but the LAW and other people do NOT recognize this difference, and believe me, people will go crazy if a child is hurt, even if it is "just a nip".

 

(I apolgize for the "overuse of boldface". In posts where I need to address several points, I can't think of another way to set the type apart so it is not all one huge block.)

 

Now you're spending a great deal of time yelling that it's not biting, it's nipping and how could anything think that a dog should be PTS for NIPPING ferchrissake. We've all accepted your amended description and moved on. You for some reason are still hung up on the comments that arose from your original, apparently much-exaggerated description of her behavior.

 

 

It is not changed, so much as more specific and clear -- the way people were talking, I think they DID think I was frightened she would attack ME (not true) and took my fear of a lawsuit to mean "she will rip someone's face off"

 

Sadly, it does not take a tearing bite or disfigurement for a child's parents to sue you.

 

 

 

Many people (on this thread and the other) have given you options to try. What about NILIF won't work for you? What about some of the other resources? Why won't THEY work? What part of changing YOUR RELATIONSHIP with the dog (which is the approach many of us would take and is the approach that you would take if you followed some of the advice given) do you not wish to do?

 

I did not reject NILF. In fact, the first reference to it I believe was today or yesterday. I have ordered some more books recommended her. For goodness sake, because you mention something, it does not appear in my lap instantly! I read fast, but not that fast!

 

Also: I have no idea what "changing my relationship with my dog means". Seriously. None at all. It doesn't even make sense to me. Change it HOW? do WHAT?

 

Numerous people have made it clear that there is NO ONE ANSWER that will fix your dog. You have to try things and see what works and what doesn't. You have to learn from her what is needed. We can't do that for you. NILIF, for example, is about teaching the dog to look to you for leadership in all things. When applied successfully, the dog stops being so reactive and instead looks to you to determine how to react.

 

I never thought there was one answer. I posted to get a variety of answers, and hopefully pick and choose the best information and advice and go from there.

 

I do get the basic concept of NILF; it is incorporated into many of the training programs that I looked into. Some of them -- now, I am not saying YOU or anyone here -- but some of the trainers using this really seemed to be dominating their dogs in a very harsh, militaristic way that I could never replicate (choke and prong collars, making the dog "sit & stay" for literally hours at a time, etc.).

 

These programs are available to me, and they would be cheaper than a behavioral vet, and if you guys really think "that's the best way to go", I can take another look at them. The average cost was about $600.

 

Yes, people are getting exasperated with you. WE're trying to help and we're getting back is a lot of complaining about ONE set of answers that might have been appropriate based on your original post. The rest of us have moved on from that. Why can't you?

 

I was upset to read several posts about euthanasia. I did not single any one person out. I said I was SHOCKED but not ANGRY. If someone who was less of a dog lover or a BC lover said this, I'd be less shocked.

 

Obviously the county does euthanize biters, and they do NOT distinguish a nip from a hard bite.

 

 

 

Your dog probably growls because she is uncomfortable and is feeling stress. She is growling to warn you (or whomever) that she is reaching a breaking point. It is HER WAY of telling YOU (or whomever) that she is feeling trapped and uncomfortable. Until you can recognize the growling for what it is and better control her environment so that she feels more secure and less like you're going to let bad things happen, she's GOING TO growl. Look at this way: it's an early warning system TO YOU that SOMETHING is seriously worrying her. She is COMMUNICATING with you. Why isn't anyone telling you how to stop it? Because you don't want to stop it. It should stop on its own once you take better care to manage her environment.

 

 

Every dog growls. My old dog, who was a big old sweetie pie, growled on occasion.

 

This is different or I would not mention it. It is very harsh, deep, angry and persistent -- and inappropriate. Like growling at children playing 100 ft away. Growling at an elderly woman who puts her hand out for the dog to sniff.

 

There was nothing in these events to suggest Ladybug was at a "breaking point". Clearly she was angry, clearly she felt threatened -- but not by NORMAL things.

 

A dog who growls at a big, masked man with a baseball bat who is running at you -- that dog is growling APPROPRIATELY.

 

Obviously I am doing things to manage the growling -- like quickly removing her from situations. But that does not get at the underlying problem.

 

 

 

I honestly think that you need to learn to be her leader. That you need to exert much greater control over her immediate environment until you have been able to establish a better relationship with her and shown her that she can look to you for leadership, and then slowly work her up to being able to deal with things that have triggered her in the past, recognizing of course, that she may never be entirely comfortable or trustworthy in certain situations (e.g., squealing whirling dervish children).

Beyond that, we can't help you. You have to try things, take what feedback you get from Ladybug, and then proceed based on that feedback (success, partial succes, failure. Trial and error is pretty much the approach any of us would take in dealing with a dog with an unknown history that is exhibiting behaviors we don't like. There is no one-size-fits all answer. It seems that's what you might be hoping for, but it just doesn't exist.

 

 

Actually you are describing what I have been doing, Julie -- even before posting here.

 

I watch Ladybug carefully. I control her. I don't let her run free around other people. She is on a very short leash around other people, children or other dogs.

 

Asking a dog to "look to you for leadership" is kinda vague. I don't understand how to do that in practical terms. She DOES come to me for everything, food attention water petting walking -- everything. She is a very affectionate dog (to me).

 

I also understand the general idea of "de-sensitization" and I have been doing that from early one, exposing her to things slowly for a short time, then taking her away and doing this over and over. I could do more, if I could get some people and kids to work with us a little, but they are scared of her (mostly the growling) and won't.

 

The sad part is what you say "she may never be entirely ... trustworthy in certain situations". I am afraid that is likely true at her age (5), and it is what is stressing ME out and making ME sad.

[Laurel962]

OK, I wasn't going to respond, too many of my own emotions BUT, and I will try to make it short, and yes, I am frustrated... Laurel962, your original post made it sound like Ladybug could be a serious biter and following posts continued to make it sound like it was close to hopeless, afraid you'd lose your home, etc., this is why I think some may have suggested the possibility of having to have her PTS. As the thread has progressed, it is obvious to me that she is a nipper when she feels she cannot escape any other way. It has happened, what, now 3 times? You know she does this, what are you doing to keep from putting her in the situations that trigger her nipping? What is your reaction when she does this?

 

 

I really do apologize if my first post was "over the top". I was very upset at the time I typed it. However, I'd say it is still accurate if a bit emotional.

 

I did not say I'd LOSE MY HOUSE. I said that my homeowner's insurance WOULD drop me. I have a bite incident (with another dog) from only 2000. They are very particular these days, and will drop you even if you get a pit bull MIX. Seriously. They have told me this.

 

I've also talked to about 20 trainers or behaviorists in my area (over 3 months) and a couple DID tell me "it is hopeless". Some said "this will never get better, you will regret this forever, don't say I did not tell you so", etc. One said "this is a tragedy about to happen".

 

You are not quite correct about the nipping. She nips for no reason and with no warning. Her mean growling and her nipping are UNRELATED. She has never escalated a growl into a nip. She nips from a lethargic, laying-down position, while she looks like she is resting. (She is very very fast, too.) She nips once, then withdraws. She does not show signs of being agitated or upset afterwards. It is almost like it happens in a trance.

 

It has happened about 4-5 times, depends if you count the time she nipped at/head-butted ME when I brushed burrs out of her tail (admittedly I was pulling her fur).

 

I cannot prevent these situations, because they were all different (on the first page, I believe I list every one of them) and different people. My only choice is to muzzle her around people and other dogs. (She has not bit another dog, but does mean growling.) Or never take her anywhere.

 

AFTER she has growled or nipped? LOL, I do what I call "useless yelling" -- "bad dog! bad Ladybug! no! no! bad dog!" (repeat 37 times).

 

 

I have an aussie, who when younger would sneak up behind (men, happened twice) and nip their calves before we even knew it was happening, never breaking skin. One day my partner was talking with my neighbor over the hog wire fence and Ollie was laying down next to him. Partner turned to walk away, Ollie got up. went to fence line and nipped our neighbor on the butt as he turned to walk away. Partner was so embarrassed and shocked, he grabbed Ollie by the collar and walked him, on hind feet, up the hill and threw him in the kennel for a long time out. Ollie has never nipped anyone again... No, he was not beat.

 

 

Sounds a lot like Ladybug. But do you seriously suggest I grab her by the collar and stuff her into a cage? will that really work?

 

If any of my dogs ever tried to nip me, I would yell, HEY, and give them a time out. letting them know I highly disapprove. This is what they know is a correction. They very rarely need any kind of correction so it means something when it happens. Again, what do you do to help her understand that nipping is an unacceptable behavior?

 

I definitely do correct her; she just looks blank like she has no idea what I am mad about.

 

She is what I call a "hard dog". A "soft dog" if you yell at them, they look sad and miserable and often go hide. A "hard dog" will just sit there and look at you like you are insane. If you beat them (and I don't do this), they don't even care.

 

 

I am sorry for the loss of your last pup but you cannot change the fact, I know this very, very well. Grieving and sadness will continue for a long time. You now have a new doggie friend. What has helped me is that I try to be the best doggie partner that I can be because my recently passed best friend would want it this way. My dogs can feel when I'm sad, depressed, etc. They can very well take advantage of a weakened state of mind, one in particular is happy to step in and try to be in charge... But then I believe that dogs are basically opportunist :)/>/>/>/>/>. It is very possible that Ladybug is reacting to your emotions.

 

 

Some have said this to me -- that she can read my mind, that she knows I don't love her, etc.

 

I don't know if this is true or not. But I can tell you: this dog is TOTALLY HAPPY. She is like a pig in mud. She plays and rolls around, and cuddles. She begs for walks and is obsessed with squirrels and oh so happy out of doors. She has a "boyfriend" behind the house, in the next yard, who she slobbers over. (They are seperated by a tall chain link fence.) She is very affectionate to myself and my husband. To see her with us in our home, you'd never dream there was a problem.

 

 

Also, am wondering, does Ladybug have full run of the house and you :)/>/>/>/>/>? Is she crate trained? Are there house rules she follows?

 

I don't crate her. If essential, I have no problem doing so but right now, I don't have a crate big enough for her.

 

She has the run of the house, but 90% of the time is right at my side (or my husbands). She is like a little shadow.

 

RARELY -- like 2-3 times in 4 months -- she has had an accident in the house. The way I knew this was she "disappeared" -- I got suspicious and looked around, and sure enough, she'd gone in the house. I try to be better now about taking her out, giving her an extra "pee break" each day.

 

Occasionally she will go into my bedroom (while I am working in my office next door) and sleep on my bed with my cats. (Cats as you know sleep about 16 hours a day....).

 

I am not sure what "house rules" you mean. Of course, the "rule" is "no peeing/pooping in the house" and no food stealing. Just once, the other day, she stole a container of chip dip off a counter -- that's the first time I have seen her STEAL food. No idea why.

[ejano]

To everyone who has been nice enough to respond here:

 

 

Just that I DID NOT come here, right after adopting Ladybug and just cry and vent and sit around uselessly. I came here after MONTHS of trying all kinds of things, books...videos...online resources...trainers & behaviorists. Clickers, shock collars, prong collars, muzzles.

 

 

 

 

Dear doG, please tell me someone suggested you put a shock collar on a reactive dog? Whoever suggested that should be wearing the collar! Same for the prong collar. If you were really using those when she nipped, the problem self-propogated. See stranger. I will be punished...chase stranger away. NIP! ZING. Didn't NIP fast enough. I'll get that stranger next time and I won't get ZINGED. Fear reaction reinforced. (And me beating head on desk!) Also, if you are constantly switching your approach, that in itself is a problem. A reactive dog needs a calm, steady, predictable person.

 

I can understand and endorse the muzzle when you need to take her out. I love the clicker for training tricks and obedience and it helped our reactive dog a great deal. He was attacked and the clicker was a large part of helping him to understand that good things happen when another dog appears. The nothing in life is free (NLIF) works very well too. Everything from supper to a casual treat is earned. They don't have to do cartwheels. It can be as straightforward as my boys going into their crates when I say "Crate". Then they get their dinner. (BTW don't casually feed the dog from the table). If you don't want to crate her for her food, ask her to sit, or lie down before you fill her bowl. You can also make her wait a few minutes before she's allowed to eat. It sounds mean, but she will begin to understand that you are running the railroad, not her.

 

Trick and obedience training keep the dog busy and mentally active. If you had an older dog, you may have forgotten as we did, just how much exercise a young dog needs. Even at 12 1/2, our Ladybug needs a regular run each day. It keeps her fit, agile and happy. She is also proof that an old dog can learn new tricks. We're working on "wipe your paws" and of course, our Ladybug picks it up first because she's our best and brightest girl ever.

 

I feel for you; I really do. Look at doing positive things with her and be firm with the rules. It might help to write down the rules you want her to obey. Try for two or three in the beginning so you don't get confused. What do you want the dog to do (besides not nip people!)? Do you want her to have basic obedience (Sit, lay, etc.) Do you want her to do tricks? U-tube is full of great ideas for trick training. Some of the things my dogs do is pick up their toys, ring a bell to go outdoors. Again, NILF - they wait to be released to go out of the door - not just beat feet the moment it opens. They "toot their own horn" - a bicycle horn, ring a jingle bell and I'm looking for another simple instrument they can play so I can have a three dog band. They play Frisbee, fetch, catch, tug on a hanging rope. I have had a tether ball in the past but the two boys are pretty rough. It would last about five minutes. I give them a big, hard jolly ball to chase once in awhile. And oh, yeah - we do that sheep thing :)/>/> which is the best of all!

 

The point is, you are in charge of all that is good and wonderful in your dog's life. Anything you do with the dog reinforces that you are in charge of her world and she can trust you for a predictable reaction.

 

Give her a spot that's hers so she can retreat to it when the world gets rough but let her know that you own that spot so she doesn't get the idea that she can defend it. Make her move off of it on command. (Her spot is not your bed, by the way - give her a simple throw rug and train her to go there.)

 

Another suggestion I was given that I found most helpful is to keep a journal. Every now and then (set a time i.e. on the hour), take a long considering look at the dog. What is she doing? How is she acting? What is her environment? Write it in your journal. When you take her out - write down her surroundings and how she reacts/acts to those surroundings. You may uncover some things and you'll have a dispassionate report to give whomever you decide to consult.

 

 

ETA - "hard" dogs indeed do care very much when you yell, scream etc. It's part of the breed make-up to take a correction and not sulk or melt into a puddle - but keep on working. If you treat her fairly, she'll be good for you.

 

Your household has a similar set up to mine. I work at home. The dogs ring a bell when they want to go out and they don't wander off to sleep on the bed. They have beds here in the study. It's all about rules and who owns what.

[Laurel962]

Dear doG, please tell me someone suggested you put a shock collar on a reactive dog? Whoever suggested that should be wearing the collar! Same for the prong collar. If you were really using those when she nipped, the problem self-propogated. See stranger. I will be punished...chase stranger away. NIP! ZING. Didn't NIP fast enough. I'll get that stranger next time and I won't get ZINGED. Fear reaction reinforced. (And me beating head on desk!) Also, if you are constantly switching your approach, that in itself is a problem. A reactive dog needs a calm, steady, predictable person.

 

 

Yes, they most certainly DID. They said it would completely cure her. The chain is called "SIT MEANS SIT".

 

I did get a collar (they wanted $228, I was able to get one much cheaper) and tried it a little on my own. It is very cumbersome -- heavy, must be recharged every two days. You have to carry a VERY heavy remote device. And the training costs thousands of dollars, if done properly.

 

After 2 days, I decided that it might be OK for HER (the shocks are painless tingles) but it was NOT OK for ME. I don't have that "Nazi death camp guard" personality where I can shock anyone, even a dog. BTW: every chain or trainer SWEARS their method is best, perfect will cure your dog and if you don't do it, you don't care, you are a cheapskate and you will be sorry, etc.

 

 

 

 

I can understand and endorse the muzzle when you need to take her out. I love the clicker for training tricks and obedience and it helped our reactive dog a great deal. He was attacked and the clicker was a large part of helping him to understand that good things happen when another dog appears. The nothing in life is free (NLIF) works very well too. Everything from supper to a casual treat is earned. They don't have to do cartwheels. It can be as straightforward as my boys going into their crates when I say "Crate". Then they get their dinner. (BTW don't casually feed the dog from the table). If you don't want to crate her for her food, ask her to sit, or lie down before you fill her bowl. You can also make her wait a few minutes before she's allowed to eat. It sounds mean, but she will begin to understand that you are running the railroad, not her.

 

 

I just heard of NILF today, but I have ordered some books and will try it.

 

I do often use her food as a treat, to get her to sit or give a paw or lay down. Nothing too elaborate. She is never fed from the table.

 

Do remember: this was a morbidly obese dog just 4 months ago. She has lost almost 1/3rd her total body weight. She is on a restricted diet, and can't have all the treats a normal dog can have.

 

 

 

 

 

Trick and obedience training keep the dog busy and mentally active. If you had an older dog, you may have forgotten as we did, just how much exercise a young dog needs. Even at 12 1/2, our Ladybug needs a regular run each day. It keeps her fit, agile and happy. She is also proof that an old dog can learn new tricks. We're working on "wipe your paws" and of course, our Ladybug picks it up first because she's our best and brightest girl ever.

 

 

SORRY FOR CONFUSION. I lost a 12 year old dog in June! Ladybug is only 5 years old.

 

She gets at least 2 long and 2 short walks each day. On the weekends, she gets good long hikes and runs in the park.

 

 

Oddly, she is a very lethargic dog. Her bloodwork did not show hypothyroid. But she just lacks typical BC energy. Yes, she is a purebred BC (no papers) but she is not a mix.

 

My 12 year old dog had six times the energy Ladybug has at 5.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I feel for you; I really do. Look at doing positive things with her and be firm with the rules. It might help to write down the rules you want her to obey. Try for two or three in the beginning so you don't get confused. What do you want the dog to do (besides not nip people!)? Do you want her to have basic obedience (Sit, lay, etc.) Do you want her to do tricks? U-tube is full of great ideas for trick training. Some of the things my dogs do is pick up their toys, ring a bell to go outdoors. Again, NILF - they wait to be released to go out of the door - not just beat feet the moment it opens. They "toot their own horn" - a bicycle horn, ring a jingle bell and I'm looking for another simple instrument they can play so I can have a three dog band. They play Frisbee, fetch, catch, tug on a hanging rope. I have had a tether ball in the past but the two boys are pretty rough. It would last about five minutes. I give them a big, hard jolly ball to chase once in awhile. And oh, yeah - we do that sheep thing :)/> which is the best of all!

 

 

 

I am always amazed and HUMBLED by the wonderful things people can teach their dogs.

 

Alas, I'm not very good at that. My standards are modest -- I want the dog to be totally housebroken and trustworthy it will not go in the house unless sick or a true emergency. No food stealing or begging. No excessive barking. Walk on a loose leash. Sit, paw and lay down are the fanciest tricks I ever achieved!

 

I am working on having her sit down the minute she comes indoors, so I can more easily get her leash off.

 

 

 

 

 

The point is, you are in charge of all that is good and wonderful in your dog's life. Anything you do with the dog reinforces that you are in charge of her world and she can trust you for a predictable reaction.

 

Give her a spot that's hers so she can retreat to it when the world gets rough but let her know that you own that spot so she doesn't get the idea that she can defend it. Make her move off of it on command. (Her spot is not your bed, by the way - give her a simple throw rug and train her to go there.)

 

Thats a good idea -- but a tiny problem. I had such a spot for my old dog. It was just a pile of old blankets she could sleep on (she was also free to sleep on our bed or the downstairs couch).

 

BUT about a year ago, my eldest cat had radiation therapy for a benign thyroid tumor. Somehow, it changed her behavior (though her tumor is 100% cured now). She has started wetting any bedding, towels or newspaper left on the floor.

 

She kept soaking the dog's bed, until the dog would not use it. (the old dog). I have tried to make Ladybug a bed, even bought a nice pet bed from the store -- but the cat has ruined it.

 

So for the present, I cannot have ANYTHING fabric or paper on the floor -- period.

 

 

 

 

 

Another suggestion I was given that I found most helpful is to keep a journal. Every now and then (set a time i.e. on the hour), take a long considering look at the dog. What is she doing? How is she acting? What is her environment? Write it in your journal. When you take her out - write down her surroundings and how she reacts/acts to those surroundings. You may uncover some things and you'll have a dispassionate report to give whomever you decide to consult.

 

 

That's an excellent idea -- I will get a notebook tomorrow and start to do this.

[juliepoudrier]

It is not changed, so much as more specific and clear -- the way people were talking, I think they DID think I was frightened she would attack ME (not true) and took my fear of a lawsuit to mean "she will rip someone's face off"

 

Sadly, it does not take a tearing bite or disfigurement for a child's parents to sue you.

 

We all understand this, truly. We all know we live in a litigious society. If your greatest fear is that she will bite a child and you will be sued, then the obvious answer is to severely limit her exposure to children. That might not be the answer you're hoping for, but it is the *practical* answer. At some point in the future, with desensitization, she might be more trustworthy around children, but she might not, and you will have to reconcile yourself to that.

 

My dogs have not been raised around children, but the ones I raised from puppyhood have all been raised the same way. One of them, who is closely related to the others, simply is not comfortable around children. She barks at them. Why she responds that way when she's been raised exactly the same as my other dogs is a mystery. It's just her. Heck, I'm not a big fan of little kids, screaming, dashing about, etc. It stresses me, so I can understand how it would stress a dog. If people come by with children to see the farm animals, I simply don't let that particular dog out to meet them.

 

Also: I have no idea what "changing my relationship with my dog means". Seriously. None at all. It doesn't even make sense to me. Change it HOW? do WHAT?

 

What it means in the context of what I wrote is that you have a dog who is insecure4 and reactive. At least what I can gather from the descriptions you've given here, she has been put in situations where she was uncomfortable but which you thought should be no big deal for the average dog, like growling at the little old lady who wanted to pet her. Did the lady lean over? Was she wearing a hat? A strong perfume? Was she staring Ladybug in the face? <--That's a bit of a digression, but these are all things that can cause *any* dog to react fearful or growl. You were probably too busy being concerned about the growling to even make note of what it was that frightened her in the first place. So here's what I mean about changing your relationship--and others have touched on it, especially Mary and Robin, though they didn't call it exactly that: Ladybug needs to be able to trust that YOU won't put her in any situation that makes her uncomfortable. It's about trust, about knowing that you've "got her back." It's going to be a little tough for you to do that because your expectations don't exactly match Ladybug's reality. You think Ladybug should be accepting of the squealing herky jerky child and growl at the masked man with the gun. The noisy, erratic child will almost always be scarier to a dog than the quietly approaching masked man with the gun. You have to look at these things through the dog's eyes and not your own. The dog has no reason to fear the quietly approaching masked man with a gun because the man isn't doing anything to raise alarm bells. A dog doesn't know a man with a gun might be dangerous. How would it? That's an anthropomorphic view of the dog. If a dog reacts to such a man, it has either been trained to do so, or it picks up on the human's fear and reacts to that (in other words, the dog doesn't find the masked man inherently dangerous but will react when it senses that YOU fear that man).

 

So when I talk about changing your relationship and being a leader I am not talking about dominating the dog--I'm talking about getting the dog to trust you, to trust that you will not put her in situations that cause her to be fearful and to trust that if you find yourselves in a situation that scares or overwhelms her that you will do what is necessary to de-escalate the situation quickly and calmly, that is, to keep her safe (her view of safe). One of the reasons I have had a good long relationship with my biting dog is because I am careful about the situations that I put him in. If I don't put him in situations that will cause him to react by biting, then he's not going to bite. If he *trusts me* not to put him in situations like that, then he is going to be a happier, more stress-free dog, and he will be more sociable as a result and maybe even more tolerant of things that might otherwise scare him and trigger a bite. I can take him out in public. He will walk up to people and sit down and ask to be petted. He is willing to do that because he trusts that I haven't put him in a situation where he needs to be fearful of his safety (fear aggression = biting out of fear). I have said I don't trust him 100% percent of the time. This is not a reflection on my abilities as a trainer; it's simply an honest assessment of a fear biter. But it doesn't mean that I live in fear that he's going to go off on someone either. We have a relationship in which he knows he can generally trust me to protect him.

 

This is what desensitization does. You're not only desensitizing the dog; you're also teaching the dog that you are its "safe place," that you can be trusted to keep it safe from the things it finds scary or overwhelming--that you won't overface it.

 

I do get the basic concept of NILF; it is incorporated into many of the training programs that I looked into. Some of them -- now, I am not saying YOU or anyone here -- but some of the trainers using this really seemed to be dominating their dogs in a very harsh, militaristic way that I could never replicate (choke and prong collars, making the dog "sit & stay" for literally hours at a time, etc.).

 

These programs are available to me, and they would be cheaper than a behavioral vet, and if you guys really think "that's the best way to go", I can take another look at them. The average cost was about $600.

 

You can take the basic principles of a program like NILIF (or the one Kristine linked to in the other thread) and adjust them to your own style. I am not a clicker trainer, but I have used reward-based training to teach some things. I use corrections for other things (note that correction doesn't mean punishment). What I do is based entirely on what *I* am comfortable doing to/with a dog and are also modified on the basis of each individual dog's response to the method. This is what I mean by trial-and-error and letting your dog give you feedback.

 

[Every dog growls. My old dog, who was a big old sweetie pie, growled on occasion.

 

This is different or I would not mention it. It is very harsh, deep, angry and persistent -- and inappropriate. Like growling at children playing 100 ft away. Growling at an elderly woman who puts her hand out for the dog to sniff.

 

There was nothing in these events to suggest Ladybug was at a "breaking point". Clearly she was angry, clearly she felt threatened -- but not by NORMAL things.

 

A dog who growls at a big, masked man with a baseball bat who is running at you -- that dog is growling APPROPRIATELY.

 

Obviously I am doing things to manage the growling -- like quickly removing her from situations. But that does not get at the underlying problem.

 

You're not understanding my point. Yes dogs growl. Ladybug has a specific deep growl that should be saying to you "there's something about this situation that is making her scared/uncomfortable. The underlying problem is that you are placing a value judgment on her growling from YOUR point of view. You think she should growl at the masked man but not at the little old lady. As I said above, she has no way of knowing that she needs to respond in the ways you think she should respond. Her past experiences or just her general temperamental makeup will determine what she finds scary, or not. Again, you need stop worrying about what you consider appropriate/inappropriate and instead work with what SHE considers appropriate/inappropriate (WRT what should be growled at). Something about the little old lady scared her. It doesn't matter that you don't think she should have been scared; the fact was that there was something that made her fearful enough to growl a serious warning. You get to figure out why and desensitize her to those things. Just thinking that she should growl at one thing and not another isn't helping her and is probably adding to your general frustration.

 

 

Actually you are describing what I have been doing, Julie -- even before posting here.

 

I watch Ladybug carefully. I control her. I don't let her run free around other people. She is on a very short leash around other people, children or other dogs.

 

Asking a dog to "look to you for leadership" is kinda vague. I don't understand how to do that in practical terms. She DOES come to me for everything, food attention water petting walking -- everything. She is a very affectionate dog (to me).

 

I also understand the general idea of "de-sensitization" and I have been doing that from early one, exposing her to things slowly for a short time, then taking her away and doing this over and over. I could do more, if I could get some people and kids to work with us a little, but they are scared of her (mostly the growling) and won't.

 

The sad part is what you say "she may never be entirely ... trustworthy in certain situations". I am afraid that is likely true at her age (5), and it is what is stressing ME out and making ME sad.

 

Well, as others have pointed out, you've had her four months. Desensitization is generally a long process. Not a lifetime, certainly (though management may be a lifelong thing), but more than 4-6 months.

 

I think I already adequately described what I meant by looking to you for leadership. It's not the same as coming to you for love or any of that. It's about knowing she can trust you to protect her from the things that scare her. If she trusts you to protect her, she should come to the point that if you accept the approach of someone like the little old lady, Ladybug will accept her approach too.

 

FWIW, age has nothing to do with it. Some dogs start out as fearful, reactive puppies. Consider that it does neither you nor Ladybug any good to be stressed out or sad over your situation. As has been mentioned before, dogs are extremely sensitive to their people's moods. If she senses you are unhappy, stressed, sad over her, then she's also going to be stressed, and that will likely just exacerbate her reactivity. As someone else noted, if you have chosen the option of keeping her, then you need to take the next step and be positive about it. You apparently like dogs and are willing to try different training methods, so you can instead look at this not as a stressful thing but as a training challenge. As someone who owns a fear biter I can say that there's no real reason to be sad about the situation. And sadness won't improve the situation. I'm not being heartless here--just pointing out that at some point, if you really want to make progress with Ladybug, you will need to let go of the sadness, disappointment, whatever and just resolve to accept Ladybug for what she is and move forward.

 

J.

[rushdoggie]

If you were looking for a board certified behaviorist, you might have a hard time finding one, there's only a few. There's one in Columbus which is a drive but not unmanageable from Cleveland.

You might also contact Karen Overall in PA and ask her office if she can refer anyone in your area.

This clinic is listed as recommended on the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's website: http://www.thebehaviorclinic.com/

Per this website her rate is $175/he with the initial consultation being 2-3 hours and including phone follow ups (expensive, but not the thousands you were quoted elsewhere).

You could also check with Ohio State U's vet school, they have a behavior vet and if that's too far to go you could maybe get a referral. http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/behavior

Take a deep breath, this is really doable.

 

 

 

Thanks. I am sorry if I was unclear -- I did ask about board-certified behaviorists (vets) and there are two -- one is Dr. Herron in Columbus at OSU and the other is in the Cleveland area, the "behaviorclinic.com, which is Dr. Feltes. It is a whole lot closer to me, so I started there. I have an open file, but have not made a formal appointment due to the very high cost -- $175 AN HOUR, which is 4 hours for the initial workup. That's $700, folks -- exactly what I said. (I'm not even counting the commuting costs, as it is across town about 35 miles each way).

 

The "thousands" number comes from the initial workup, followups, phone calls and return visits. In one year, I figured that would be roughly $2000 and who knows if it would take 2-3 years or more?

 

Dr. Herron at Ohio State University only consults with VETS. I was told she does not take private patients.

 

 

According to the website, Dr. Herron runs a clinic which implies she sees patients. But, even if she only consults with vets, maybe you could talk to your vet and work through her?

 

And yes, $175 is expensive, but you jump from 2-3 hours to 4, which of course doubles the cost. Again, filters...you are always jumping to the worst case scenario. Maybe it will be less than that, but by throwing up barriers before you even try you make it harder.

[ejano]

Thats a good idea -- but a tiny problem. I had such a spot for my old dog. It was just a pile of old blankets she could sleep on (she was also free to sleep on our bed or the downstairs couch).

 

BUT about a year ago, my eldest cat had radiation therapy for a benign thyroid tumor. Somehow, it changed her behavior (though her tumor is 100% cured now). She has started wetting any bedding, towels or newspaper left on the floor.

 

I used small throw rugs - mainly because Robin went through a helluva chewing phase when he was a pup. He absent-mindedly ate part of the arm of my couch, among other things. I do have soft beds now but he still prefers his rug.

[Blackdawgs]

It seems like you are flitting between different training philosphies willy nilly, watching a bunch of videos (perhaps willy nilly), and buying a bunch of books (perhaps willy nilly). This must be costing you a fortune and is probably confusing the heck out of the dog.

 

I think that you have to pick one person's program and stick with it. Personally, I think that you are best off taking all of your resources and putting them towards a veterinary behaviorist and then have faith and stick with the program for several months--even if the program includes drugs. Antidepressents are CHEAP, they are all generic. Buy them from Walmart/ Target, etc and NOT the vet, who will sell you the expensive brand names that are formulated for dogs but are exactly the same drug that you would buy at the local pharmacy.

 

The situation sounds salvagable to me, but there will be no quick and easy fixes. You do need to decide if you like this dog enough to put the effort into her. If you don't like her that much, return her to the rescue.

 

And get rid the shock collar.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

OK, here is the deal...you asked for advice. We gave it to you. You countered back with excuses or justifications etc....

 

If she was my dog I would either find another behavorist to fix the issue or put the dog down. I am not willing to lose my house and farm if I have a dog with bites with no reason and history. Whether they placed her with a known bite history, doesn' t make it right. They might have been hoping it was fixable but I tell you that our Border Collie rescue WILL NOT place a dog with a bite history.

 

What are you going to you? It's your dog and your responsiblity.

 

We gave you our advice. You may not like it but you asked for our advice.

 

 

 

 

Delta, there is no reason to take that kind of harsh tone. I'm not making excuses -- I AM EXPLAINING. None of you have met this dog. An excuse is "oh I'm too busy having my nails done to take her to be trained".

 

In fact, I spent a lot of money and drove for hours to get her training with a highly recommended local behavioral trainer (not a vet, but licensed CPT).

 

It is also unfair to look at this as no different than dog who bites and tears flesh, and causes bleeding wounds. Most people recognize that border collies nips are not all that unusual, and that they are tiny quick nibbles and not big tearing bites.

 

I did mention the difference between a LEGAL definition of "bite" and what we all know as animal owners.

 

I did not get her from a border collie rescue. I got her from a small rural shelter, that is "no kill". They took generally decent care of the dogs there -- for a rural shelter, it is probably among the best -- but it is not on the level of one of these beautiful border collie FARMS, where the dogs have every need met, loads of exercise and training.

 

I asked for advice to HELP her. I certainly have weighed much of this advice, and I plan to do something. I never said I was considering putting her down, and again -- I am shocked some of you think this.

 

It is even more shocking because some people here, folks with numerous dogs, admit they have one or two "nippers" or very aggressive problem dogs -- and they are NOT euthanizing either.

 

 

Oh, please...... my answer is not harsh and don't go all drama on me. I didn't say I was angry or put your dog down. I told you what I would do if she was my dog. You asked me for my advice. I gave it to you. You may not like the answers but you will have to accept that people took the time to respond. Will people respond if you get all hostile when they offer advice?

 

I have done lots of rehabbing of fear biters in Border Collie Rescue. Some we were able to rehab but most we put down. I still have scars on my arms from the bites. Some didn't know the rules and needed education and leadership while others were just biters. I had a very severe biter that I had gotten from a rescue that was a horrible fear biter that was not disclosed to me. I spent MONTHS getting her NOT to bite. What helped her anixety was herding and learning self control. If she felt like she was too stressed, she could go to the bedroom. I also worked with a good behavorist for years. I found out that her breeding was BYB and her parents were aggressive fear biters. It was genetic partly and I did manage it. She was aggressive to children, quick movements, people bending down, hats and glasses and crowds of people. She did bite a person when I owned her right after I got her then I found out doing reserch that the rescue lied and had a bite history. If the herding didn't work, then she would have been put down.

 

As for your shock of people suggesting of putting a dog down...sometimes it is the only option.You do what is best for the dog. There is NOT a single person that only said to put her down. I said to FIND a behavorist to fix the issue or put her down. Don't be picking certain words out.

 

If you are going to keep her, you will have to learn how to manage her. Pick an non harsh method. Find a reputable trainer and stick with it. Don't let her get into situations where she will nip/bite/growl. The key is management. A nip is a bite in the eyes of the law. As a lawyer explained to us (rescue) that a judge will rule against you if you send out a dog with an bite history and since we were private folks, we could lose out house etc....and if we had a dog that had a bite history, even with family members and the dog bit, we could lose the house. As for Sophie, we just put her away when we had company with children. We managed her and she never bit again but it was a lot of work. Have you thought of taking her to an basic obedience or sone type of group class where she learns some rules?

 

One last item...if you read my post, at the bottom is has my name...it is not Delta.

[dmadrid]

Yes, they most certainly DID. They said it would completely cure her. The chain is called "SIT MEANS SIT".

 

I did get a collar (they wanted $228, I was able to get one much cheaper) and tried it a little on my own. It is very cumbersome -- heavy, must be recharged every two days. You have to carry a VERY heavy remote device. And the training costs thousands of dollars, if done properly.

 

After 2 days, I decided that it might be OK for HER (the shocks are painless tingles) but it was NOT OK for ME. I don't have that "Nazi death camp guard" personality where I can shock anyone, even a dog. BTW: every chain or trainer SWEARS their method is best, perfect will cure your dog and if you don't do it, you don't care, you are a cheapskate and you will be sorry, etc.

 

It sounds like you have already come to this on your own... but please stay away from "Sit Means Sit" or other similar franchise operations. Their "dog trainers" have very little actual training (basically, they are 'trained' for three weeks to use the shock collar, and then thrown loose on the world).... and really, in dog training, very, very few *good* trainers (if any) will give you absolute guarantees like that. You just can't, because dogs are all individuals, and there is no silver bullet. If a trainer is willing to give you a guarantee like that, she better have amazing credentials to back it up. For instance, I'd probably believe Patricia McConnell... or Suzanne Clothier... but not too many others.

 

That being said, I would like to tell you a bit about my journey with my own reactive dog (a sheltie mix, not a BC, but I don't that matters here). I think some parts of it may help you.

 

I adopted Anja when she was somewhere between 8-12 months old. About 2-3 weeks in, we discovered that she was possessive over certain items (rawhides, bones she found outside, food in general). She put teeth on my husband once when he tried to take something from her (didn't break skin), and she growled like a demon when she felt that she was being threatened. To work on this issue (and this was part of her larger reactivity issue, which is why I mention it), we played lots of games of Swap with lower value items (she would have a toy, i would ask for it, show her a treat, then, as soon as she drops the toy, I give her a treat and return the toy). Gradually, we worked up to higher value items. There are still a few things I can't take (raw turkey necks, for one), but we've come a long way. This game helped build a foundation of trust - "my human will give me something awesome when they ask for what I have. They will not just take away all my fun."

 

We also soon discovered that she was reactive to other dogs - especially big ones - and many, many people. There were many situations that triggered an explosive, rather frightening reaction: tall men, men in hats or sunglasses, people with odd gaits (old, injured, etc.), anyone leaning over her, people carrying sticks or buckets, white fluffy dogs, golf carts, motorcycles, bicycles, rude "friendly" dogs, buses... the list goes on. Ironically, she didn't start out being reactive to children... but my nephew took care of that once when I was gone and had left her in the care of my grandmother... and now she is.

 

So, Anja was super reactive, and sometimes scary. And I didn't really know what to do with her, either. She was my first dog as an adult, and I really didn't know anything about anything. Having her forced me to learn, though, and quickly. Some of the most important lessons that I learned from Anja are: 1) to learn to look at the world differently, not as a human sees it, but as this particular dog sees it, 2) to accept that there are certain situations and certain triggers which will never be "ok" for her, 3) to learn to be especially attuned to her body language and the slight variations that indicate that she is about to have a reaction.

 

You have said repeatedly that Ladybug nips "without warning." I very much doubt this to be true... BUT, her warning may be so slight and subtle that you can't see it yet: a slight tensing of the face, a change in her breathing, a flaring of the nostrils or whiskers. It can be that subtle, and you can learn to read it, but it takes time. The more you watch your dog, though, the more you will learn to see these small signs. They can alert you to potential triggers and reactions, allowing you to redirect Ladybug in a more appropriate way.

 

For Anja,the things I worked on that helped most included: TTouch training (ttouch.com - it may sound a bit new age-y and weird, but it HELPS), desensitization and counter-conditioning through clicker training (specifically I used exercises from Control Unleashed and Click to Calm - I highly recommend both of these books ... the "look at that" game from CU was especially helpful), lots of trick training and agility training (by training other things with my dog, we learned to communicate better and developed a stronger bond), and going to obedience/agility classes (at least in my classes, my dog was not expected to socialize with other dogs or people. But, she did have to learn to focus on me and work while they were around. This helped her to realize that other people were not a threat, that I would keep her safe from them, etc.).

 

By working on these things (we also did do some NLIF in certain areas of life), Anja learned two things - 1) that I control the resources. If she wants something, she needs to look to me first, and 2) when she sees a trigger, the appropriate response is to look to me, rather than to try and deal with it herself.

 

It took a long time to see improvement. With some triggers, I saw improvement within months. With others, it has taken much longer. It's been a journey. And it has taken a lot of management. But, after putting in all the work, I now have a dog that can greet most people calmly, is generally well mannered and friendly, can go to an agility trial and compete successfully, and can walk near the other dogs without issues. She still sometimes reacts to other dogs when she is on leash, and she will probably never be good with screaming kids... but I can't stand them either, so I can't be in a calm enough state around them to properly train that. But, she has progressed so far that most people can't imagine that she was ever as bad as she was, and some people that knew her from the start can't even remember how reactive she was.

 

As someone else said, though, there are some things that I do now without even thinking about them... if I see a large, 'friendly' lab (or some other similar friendly-yet-rude dog) barreling towards us, I will step aside to get away from them and redirect her attention. If a skateboard is coming down the road, I will walk up a driveway. These are all things I had to learn, but that I now do automatically and without thinking. It took a while of training myself, though.

 

One thing I would like to say about the growling thing... you have a couple of times mentioned "appropriate" and "inappropriate" growling. When you've defined it in more detail, it seems that you are thinking of growling as something that a dog does to alert a human to danger (real, actual dangers). I would like to encourage you to instead think of growling as something that a dog does to communicate. I know that Ladybug has a deep, scary sounding growl... but that just may be the way she growls... even though it is deep and low, try not to interpret it overmuch with human emotions. Try not to think of her communications in human terms (for instance, you've repeatedly said that she "hates" other people... from your descriptions, though, she sounds fearful and insecure). A growl is a warning. It lets us know that the dog is uncomfortable with the situation and that, if pressed too far, it will likely escalate to a bite.

 

Also, if you haven't read it yet, I HIGHLY recommend you read a short article by Suzanne Clothier called "he just wants to say hi." It will help you to understand why some of the 'normal' things that set her off set her off (like 'friendly' larger dogs). If you've never heard of Suzanne before, she is amazing. I've seen her speak twice, and had her evaluate my dog once. She reads dogs like most of us read text. Truly amazing to watch.

 

This is probably enough for now.... this post is ridiculously long. But try not to get too discouraged. Life with a reactive dog does not have to be a life of fear and constraint. She might need a lot of management right now, but that doesn't mean that she will never improve and begin to open up to others... just prepare yourself to go at *her* pace, whatever that is, and understand that this will be a journey. You probably won't end up with a bombproof dog that can be hugged by screaming children... that is a hard pill for many dogs to swallow... but that doesn't mean that she won't become a wonderful, and much more trustworthy, companion.

[MommaLove]

Wow, this is quite the thread.

 

All I will say is, pick something and stick to it for at least a couple of months before you know if it is working or not. Quit jumping from one thing to the next. Look through all the material you have, choose a method, and give it a real and decent shot before you drop it and move on to something else. Your dog will benefit from a bit of consistency.

 

Juno has phases of fear reactivity. CLICK TO CALM has helped us immensely, although I must say she is not aggressive. Still, the principles in the book help to calm her and allow her to think through her fear.

 

Good luck.

[mbc1963]

Two more points:

 

1) My first two weeks with Buddy, I tried leash-pops and all that aversive stuff, because I read "The Monks of New Skete" and had seen people doing this. It took me only two weeks to realize that I was now one of the things in the world that was scary and unpredictable to Buddy - so I stopped. I couldn't stand to be that person. (Maybe with a different, willful and not-fearful dog, that would have been the thing. But most definitely NOT with this dog.) If Ladybug is reacting out of fear, then nix any trainer who suggests shock collars and those sorts of things.

 

2) Growling: Buddy has an entire vocabulary of growls! When there's a cat outside the window, it's a rumbling, continuous low growl - sounds a lot like a motorcycle. When a scary dog or human starts to come too close, it's a much briefer growl - enough to let me know to back up. There's a half-hearted growl he gives sometimes when he seems to think he SHOULD try to scare something (cat, squirrel) but really can't be bothered, but wants to put on the show. There's a "worried" growl that he'll let out when he sees something and doesn't know what it is. (That one sometimes happens around holidays, when suddenly there's a scary plastic Santa in a yard.) There's the "I'm playing with my bone" growl that is clearly fake.

 

Last winter I forcefully shut the screen door to keep out snow, and caught Buddy's tail. THAT growl was a very serious, "Stay back or I'm going to bite you" growl of a dog who was literally out of his mind with pain. It was really obvious to me that the dog standing there staring me down would have bitten me if I had moved toward him. He made his intent very clear. It's never happened before or since, but it was understandable and entirely my fault. I'm thankful Buddy growled to let me know something was very wrong, or I might have been in the ER.

 

When people are at my house and Buddy lets out one of his nonchalant growls that means nothing scary at all, my guests often act frightened. His voice is GSD-level deep and forceful - he sounds like a dog twice his size. But I can tell by the tone and duration of the growls that there's no problem.

 

Point being, you've gotta take the growls to mean "I'm nervous about situation X" for now - and let her guide what she's exposed to. But over time, you'll also learn that not all growls are equal, and that specific ones mean specific things. Dogs really only have barking, whining, and growling, but they manage to convey a world of information in those three sounds.

 

Mary

[mum24dog]

YOU said your dog was biting, and growling (which is a warning, as I explained in the other thread), that you were AFRAID of her, that a trainer had booted you for fear of being bit, etc. To borrow your excessive bold type, YOU and ONLY YOU presented a very bad picture of your dog. YOU said you were afraid of being sued. YOU said you were scared. What the hell did you expect people would say?

 

Now you're spending a great deal of time yelling that it's not biting, it's nipping and how could anything think that a dog should be PTS for NIPPING ferchrissake. We've all accepted your amended description and moved on. You for some reason are still hung up on the comments that arose from your original, apparently much-exaggerated description of her behavior.

 

Exactly.

 

A clear example of how careful people should be when giving advice on the basis of what a stranger says on line.

 

Noone has seen this dog or owner and advice should only be given in general terms and with ideas that are very unlikely to do any harm and there are multiple examples of thoughtful and responsible posts in this thread based on the available information at the time. Advice requiring aversion and coercion would be irresponsible in the circumstances given the danger of fallout from such methods. The dog has unfortunately already been subjected to a shock collar.

 

Convincing the owner that a dog such as first described is no big deal would be equally irresponsible. Doing no harm takes into account the good of all concerned, including the dog, hence euthanasia given as one of several options. If the second picture painted is more accurate that is a different matter.

 

If the OP was expecting a magic wand to be waved she was doomed to disappointment.

 

My impression is that the problem may be a combination of common BC behaviour combined with lack of socialisation and/or the dog's temperament. I could be wrong but even if I am the advice and education about canine communication that you and others on here have given would be a good place to start.

[Pat Anderson]

A lot more would be needed to know before anyone could really help. The dog came from a shelter which means it was not evaluated in a home setting. Someone with the ability needs to evaluate why the nipping. Is it herding nipping or more? Is she resource guarding with you being the resource? ( did all nips happen when you are right there?) Does she have scar spots that are tender that would cause her to react? There are so many things.

 

We have a BC who is now 5 years old. She was a foster who was so great here with us and any company. She was adopted and her adopter wanted her to go with him to work. He was late and she did not come ( 2nd day at his house ) He cornered her and grabbed her and she bit him. He returned her. After that she would growl and bark at anyone who came so we did not adopt her out. We have her here 4.5 years later. We do not know what happened to make her bite him and she does warn and let people know to stay away from her. When people come we put her in her crate for people's safety and to prevent her from getting a bit history. She was young enough the first one did not count legally. For us, she is a perfect and wonderful dog. She is loyal, loving, playful and active. She is nanny to our foster pups, good with cats and our other 4 dogs and the older fosters.

 

Not all dogs are social and we cannot force them to be any more than a person who is not social can be forced to become social.

I would find someone who knows the breed well and works with dogs of all temperaments, most BC rescue workers would qualify, and have them evaluate what is the base problem causing her behavior. No one should ever deliberately push a dog into a nipping or biting situation.

Pat

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

The original poster wrote (in part): "Well, I talked to the vet tech at the Behavioral Veterinary clinic, and they said "for life". They also do behavior training, but rely on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds.

 

It is also so costly, that frankly I cannot afford it. They offer no guarantees."

 

I know many traditional trainers who do.

 

There are some behaviorists I would trust my dog to but not many. Others disguise the ineffectiveness of their methods by killing the dog. Your description sounds like a not unusual nor intractable training problem.

 

I own a sheepdog that used to bite me, my wife and anyone who couldn't read dog language. While I wouldn't trust her on a playground of shrieking children, today she will wander loose through the 18 guests at our Thanksgiving dinner.

 

 

If yours was my sister's dog I'd advise her to contact an experienced professional trainer. Either http://nadoi.org/instructors.htm or http://www.canineprofessionals.com/FindAProfessional.

 

Donald McCaig

[Blackdawgs]

I would be suspiscious of any trainer offering a guarrantee.

We all know that animals are animals and are by defination unpredictable. That there is no guarrantee that a newly purchased 8-week old pup will work grow up to work livetock, that an 8-week old pup will become a future agility champion, that a newly purchased horse will stay sound, or that Fluffy will never bite. Nor is there a guarrantee that the owner will follow the trainer's program.

Professionals get sued all the time because John and Jane Q Public have unrealistic expectations of outcomes.

The only thing that anyone can do or promise is to stack the odds in favor of a good outcome.

I think that the origional poster must have her dog evaluated by a knowedgible professional and then stick with a single program for a reasonable amount of time. I think that the origional poster must learn how to read and manage her dog. I think that the origional poster must come to terms with the fact that her dog may never be a social butterfly.

[juliepoudrier]

The only thing that anyone can do or promise is to stack the odds in favor of a good outcome.

I think that the origional poster must have her dog evaluated by a knowedgible professional and then stick with a single program for a reasonable amount of time. I think that the origional poster must learn how to read and manage her dog. I think that the origional poster must come to terms with the fact that her dog may never be a social butterfly.

And the OP needs to recognize that her expectations for this particular dog might be unrealistic. She needs to start looking at life through her dog's eyes (from a canine perspective) instead of letting things be colored by *her own* expectations. Until she can accept that her dog isn't going to be the perfect, easy dog and that her dog isn't going to do things the way she thinks they should be done (i.e., who the dog *should* growl at, etc.), she will be unable to make real progress.

 

I also agree that offering a guarantee is largely meaningless, and I would be a bit wary of someone who would offer such a guarantee, because it would immediately make me wonder what methods they're using that could result in guaranteed behavior, and the picture that comes to mind isn't pretty. JMO.

J.

[rushdoggie]

Until she can accept that her dog isn't going to be the perfect, easy dog and that her dog isn't going to do things the way she thinks they should be done (i.e., who the dog *should* growl at, etc.), she will be unable to make real progress.

 

 

And man oh man, is that hard! As a person who owns a well-bred, always well cared for dog who simply has issues I struggled with this myself and it took some time.

 

I hope the OP can get a hold on her grief over the loss of her old dog and shock over the issues that have come up and really read the good advice she has been given here, and realize that no one here has been picking in her, and find a way to have a good relationship with Ladybug. She may be surprised at how she could come to learn a lot from this individual and how its possible to love Ladybug as much as she loved her old dog.

[Laurel962]

It seems like you are flitting between different training philosphies willy nilly, watching a bunch of videos (perhaps willy nilly), and buying a bunch of books (perhaps willy nilly). This must be costing you a fortune and is probably confusing the heck out of the dog.

 

I think that you have to pick one person's program and stick with it. Personally, I think that you are best off taking all of your resources and putting them towards a veterinary behaviorist and then have faith and stick with the program for several months--even if the program includes drugs. Antidepressents are CHEAP, they are all generic. Buy them from Walmart/ Target, etc and NOT the vet, who will sell you the expensive brand names that are formulated for dogs but are exactly the same drug that you would buy at the local pharmacy.

 

The situation sounds salvagable to me, but there will be no quick and easy fixes. You do need to decide if you like this dog enough to put the effort into her. If you don't like her that much, return her to the rescue.

 

And get rid the shock collar.

 

 

Blackdawgs: I got the shock collar from a friend for a nominal price. I tried it on MYSELF. I took Ladybug to a training franchise called "SIT MEANS SIT" which is shock collar training (I did not know that going in) and they did a short demo, about 10 minutes. She did not appear to be in pain. However, I myself just don't have the psychological makeup to shock a dog. I have also read very bad things about dogs with aggression issues, who were made much worse with shock collars.

 

Most of the trainers I have mentioned I spoke to on the phone OR by email....I also went to 4 franchises (one mentioned above) who talked to me and did short demos with her (no charge). We only had ONE trainer, who worked with for 3 one hour private sessions and then told us she was afraid of being nipped and that Ladybug should see a (very expensive) behavioral vet and be on drugs before she would consider seeing her again.

 

This did cost me a few hundred dollars -- which I would not begrudge AT ALL had it worked, or even put us on a consistent path that helped a bit. However, it felt like a big waste -- a few sessions of clicker training and play, a LOT of treats (remember her weight problem!) and being pushed to buy the useless Martingale collar and Baskerville Ultra muzzle (both of which she can get out of in 2 seconds).

 

The books and videos are from the library, so while I have worked hard to read and learn, I did not really spend anything on this.

 

I agree: all the conflicting info is crazy-making. But look at the responses here: some people have been angry with me, because I did not jump right on the NILF bandwagon. How do I know NILF is better than clicker? or clicker better than choke chain training? or any of it better than Cesar Milan method?

 

I am not rejecting any method. My mind is open. But I keep hearing negatives, which is just TERRIBLY disheartening.

 

I would not be writing here if I had given up on the dog. I talked to my husband tonight about this, after he overheard me talking with yet another trainer on the phone (one recommended by a member here). He was in tears, that I was going to put down his beloved dog or force him to give her away. So I can't see that as an option -- not at this point.

 

I remain open-minded and willing to try or investigate ANYTHING that would help.

 

Lastly: in a few weeks, she will be at the vet's office and I will talk to him about A. medication and B. consulting with the behaviorial department at the Ohio State Veterinary college.

[Laurel962]

I would be suspiscious of any trainer offering a guarrantee.

We all know that animals are animals and are by defination unpredictable. That there is no guarrantee that a newly purchased 8-week old pup will work grow up to work livetock, that an 8-week old pup will become a future agility champion, that a newly purchased horse will stay sound, or that Fluffy will never bite. Nor is there a guarrantee that the owner will follow the trainer's program.

Professionals get sued all the time because John and Jane Q Public have unrealistic expectations of outcomes.

The only thing that anyone can do or promise is to stack the odds in favor of a good outcome.

I think that the origional poster must have her dog evaluated by a knowedgible professional and then stick with a single program for a reasonable amount of time. I think that the origional poster must learn how to read and manage her dog. I think that the origional poster must come to terms with the fact that her dog may never be a social butterfly.

 

 

Blackdawgs: I want to make it clear -- I DID NOT QUIT ANY PROGRAM.

 

I interviewed a number of trainers and behaviorists in my area, and I chose one lady who was very highly recommended, and very nice IMHO. She was a bit far away from me, but had a beautiful new facility (very clean and modern). A lot of the local trainers have no facility, they just come to your home. So I thought this indicated her professionalism and that she had enough business (and repeat business) to be paying rent.

 

It was SHE who quit on my dog. I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I did not get frustrated after 3 sessions and demand more results, or going faster, or refuse to do the (extensive) homework. SHE QUIT ON US. She told me she was afraid of getting nipped, and that if she was nipped, she was legally obligated (as a registered trainer) to report it to the county, and that would give Ladybug a "bite history" -- meaning if she ever nipped anyone, she would be taken away and probably euthanized.

 

I certainly was never going to SUE the trainer and she was clear she offered no guarantees. In fact, I've never really seen any place offer much of a guarantee -- well, the shock collar place would. They would redo the training if it didn't work, and for their price (about $1700 for a week of in-house boarding and shock collar training), you get follow up for LIFE. (No, I didn't do it. I can't shock a dog.)

 

 

I very much agree I need to learn to "read" her behavior better, and have definitely been reading and trying to learn, and work towards that. And yes, I do realize she won't be a social butterfly like my last dog.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Lot of guff in the dog training world.

 

As in sheepdog training, what counts in pet dog training is results. If someone starts out by selling you a "philosophy", grab your wallet and run. If anyone tells you he can "cure" a problem dog in one week, grab your wallet. Avoid "franchised trainers' and big box pet store trainers.

 

While I know ecollar pet dog trainers I would recommend (and most traditional pet dog trainers use them occasionally) those innocent little devices are NOT for novices (and who do you think will train the dog when it comes home?)

 

So what's the ordinary dog-ignorant civilian to do? How can he/she know who to trust?

 

 

We can argue until we're blue in the face: behaviorist vs traditional vs ecollar vs clicker but you are not hiring an argument, nor evaluating a trainer by how virtuous he or she makes you feel.

 

Focus on the dog. Ask, what do I want in a dog? What don't I want? How can this dog live the rest of his life in my household as a joy, not a complaint?

 

Then, interview trainers. Facilities don't matter nor does membership in professional orgs (APDT, IACP, AVSAB etc).

 

What matters is: can this person train me to train my dog? And the very best way to ascertain that is looking at the dogs he/she has already trained.

 

Ask the trainer if he/she has achieved public, verifiable goals with his/her own dog. (In sheepdogs: winning an open trial, in obedience, putting a UD or higher title, in agility: a Masters). If the trainer does search and rescue, is he/she FEMA certified?

 

Trainers with these kinds of credentials are NOT RARE. Pm me with your region and I'll see if I can think of someone.

 

Next questions: Have any of your student's dogs reached these goals? Can I speak with that student?

 

To be sure: some excellent trainers don't compete and many behaviorists don't really train dogs but the novice

needs some criteria by which to judge and the pet dog trainer who has achieved a difficult skillset with his/her own dog will have, at a minimum, the ability to read dogs and considerable understanding of their limits and how they can, sometimes, surpass those limits.

 

Donald McCaig