Help! my adopted rescue BC nips and growls!

[Dana Nichols]

It is Finn, Laura. Although the description of her doesn't sound so flattering, she really is one of my favorites. Thanks for helping me get her all those years ago.

[Laurae]

I figured you were talking about Finn. You absolutely saved that dog's life, Dana.

[Carson Crazies]

Laurel, I don't think you're really going to hear many "my dog used to bite, we fixed it, and now we're all happy" stories. I think that any time a dog has gotten to the point that it's putting it's mouth on humans the possibility of easy happy trouble-free fix has diminished. Most of the time stories that start with "my dog bites" are long stories that may end in triumph - but almost always include a good dose of management for the long term.

 

The folks here care, and they've been helpful and kind - while presenting as much information as they can. I hope that once the panic in your gut eases back you can take some of it to heart. I know it's hard, and I'm sorry for the anguish you're going through.

 

While you're deciding what to do, please consider doing some reading on NILIF. I'd not allow her to hang out loose with other humans for the time being. I wouldn't even allow her the opportunity to rehearse this behavior any more until you can get help.

[Laurel962]

Laurel, I'm a Cleveland native.. My family is still there. I know, from first-hand experience, that there ARE vets who will euthanize a dog with behavior problems so severe they're overwhelming the owner. You & your dog are there. Cleveland is not rural, undeveloped, behind-the-times, or "out there." It's a major metro area, and all the major conveniences of animal training & care are available there.

 

 

Northfield Nick, it is the very fact that Cleveland is a modern urban/suburban area that there are not the hard, unemotional type of "farm vets" that think little of putting down a dog for any reason, as if it were livestock.

 

Young, modern vets (mostly women!) simply won't do this. Period. I had reason in 2007 to talk to almost 20 vets, all over Cuyahoga County, in an attempt to get them to euthanize a very sick, dying 19 year old half-feral cat -- and they refused, point blank.

 

 

If you know someone like this, I'd be curious who it is (though honestly I have no intention of putting my dog down for NIPS THAT DO NOT EVEN BREAK THE SKIN).

 

Frankly I am more than a little shocked on a blog for dog lovers (and BC lovers!) that people are so eager to deal with any behavioral problem by killing the dog. No training? No therapy? Just the needle.

[Laurel962]

OK, here is the deal...you asked for advice. We gave it to you. You countered back with excuses or justifications etc....

 

If she was my dog I would either find another behavorist to fix the issue or put the dog down. I am not willing to lose my house and farm if I have a dog with bites with no reason and history. Whether they placed her with a known bite history, doesn' t make it right. They might have been hoping it was fixable but I tell you that our Border Collie rescue WILL NOT place a dog with a bite history.

 

What are you going to you? It's your dog and your responsiblity.

 

We gave you our advice. You may not like it but you asked for our advice.

 

 

 

 

Delta, there is no reason to take that kind of harsh tone. I'm not making excuses -- I AM EXPLAINING. None of you have met this dog. An excuse is "oh I'm too busy having my nails done to take her to be trained".

 

In fact, I spent a lot of money and drove for hours to get her training with a highly recommended local behavioral trainer (not a vet, but licensed CPT).

 

It is also unfair to look at this as no different than dog who bites and tears flesh, and causes bleeding wounds. Most people recognize that border collies nips are not all that unusual, and that they are tiny quick nibbles and not big tearing bites.

 

I did mention the difference between a LEGAL definition of "bite" and what we all know as animal owners.

 

I did not get her from a border collie rescue. I got her from a small rural shelter, that is "no kill". They took generally decent care of the dogs there -- for a rural shelter, it is probably among the best -- but it is not on the level of one of these beautiful border collie FARMS, where the dogs have every need met, loads of exercise and training.

 

I asked for advice to HELP her. I certainly have weighed much of this advice, and I plan to do something. I never said I was considering putting her down, and again -- I am shocked some of you think this.

 

It is even more shocking because some people here, folks with numerous dogs, admit they have one or two "nippers" or very aggressive problem dogs -- and they are NOT euthanizing either.

[Laurel962]

If you were looking for a board certified behaviorist, you might have a hard time finding one, there's only a few. There's one in Columbus which is a drive but not unmanageable from Cleveland.

You might also contact Karen Overall in PA and ask her office if she can refer anyone in your area.

This clinic is listed as recommended on the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's website: http://www.thebehaviorclinic.com/

Per this website her rate is $175/he with the initial consultation being 2-3 hours and including phone follow ups (expensive, but not the thousands you were quoted elsewhere).

You could also check with Ohio State U's vet school, they have a behavior vet and if that's too far to go you could maybe get a referral. http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/behavior

Take a deep breath, this is really doable.

 

 

 

Thanks. I am sorry if I was unclear -- I did ask about board-certified behaviorists (vets) and there are two -- one is Dr. Herron in Columbus at OSU and the other is in the Cleveland area, the "behaviorclinic.com, which is Dr. Feltes. It is a whole lot closer to me, so I started there. I have an open file, but have not made a formal appointment due to the very high cost -- $175 AN HOUR, which is 4 hours for the initial workup. That's $700, folks -- exactly what I said. (I'm not even counting the commuting costs, as it is across town about 35 miles each way).

 

The "thousands" number comes from the initial workup, followups, phone calls and return visits. In one year, I figured that would be roughly $2000 and who knows if it would take 2-3 years or more?

 

Dr. Herron at Ohio State University only consults with VETS. I was told she does not take private patients.

[waffles]

Frankly I am more than a little shocked on a blog for dog lovers (and BC lovers!) that people are so eager to deal with any behavioral problem by killing the dog. No training? No therapy? Just the needle.[/b]

Seriously, you keep putting words in peoples mouths! NO one ever said "point blank kill your dog and do nothing else to help but kill her". Please show us where someone offered nothing else than to kill your dog.

Honestly, from the second descriptions of your dogs behavior, your dog would probably not even be a problem in a different home (one with lots of room to run, structure, no kids, strange people coming and going, an owner who was very dog savvy, etc).

You have yet to respond to anyone's suggestions about looking up NILF, some of the books and trainers and suggestions you have had. What have YOU done since starting this tread to help your dog? No trainer or person can 'fix' your dog, that is on YOU. They can help and guide but the leg work is done at home by you. Please read through the responses, educate yourself, you have gotten above and beyond wonderful advice yet all you hear somehow is "kill your dog". I just don't get what you want us to say. You could not come to a better place to find more knowledgeable people on this problem and this breed. If you can't take the help you are given here and start working with your dog, then there is no hope. It is on you now to start the work. I think it is plain rude to respond to all the kind people who have spent a lot of time typing out lots of responses and advice in the way that you are.

I just couldn't keep reading this tread and not say something even though all that I have said has already been said.

 

I just saw your new response:

We don't need more explaining-you need to get to work reading and watching videos and learning so you can help your dog. I honestly don't even think you need to spend the money and time on a vet behaviorist. You just need a GOOD trainer who actually knows how to deal with behavior issues to show you how to structure her life. The best thing you can do actually, is post a video-show us how you handle her and how she reacts to different situations. There are trainers and vets on this board along with many people who have been through what you have. We can then see what is really going on and help better than just with your words explaining.

Edited November 20, 2012 by waffles

[Laurel962]

I swore I wasn't going to respond to this thread anymore. There have been a LOT of wonderful responses, but I have to bring this single comment/attitude from Mary up again.

We all can learn from Mary's wise words. The dog is who the dog is. That doesn't mean there isn't any hope, it means we have to start where we are, not with the last dog we had, or the dog we thought we were getting.

Ladybug might be able to be more comfortable and at ease, with anywhere from some to a lot of work on your part. This will mean re-arranging your life, yes. Perhaps for several months, perhaps forever. Only you can decide whether or not to go down that road with her. It might not work. It might work like gangbusters. It's a risk.

 

Mary also points out that you might still be grieving the loss of your beloved previous girl. Oh, my dear, we've all been there. DH and I lost 5 pets in 3 years. The first to go was Buzz, who changed my husband's life so much for the better. I'm tearing up writing this, and we put Buzz to sleep, (bone cancer) exactly 4 years ago on Halloween.

Please work with your own grief about your loss. Grieve that you don't have that wonderful being who taught you about border collies anymore. Maybe, just maybe, there is something you can learn from Ladybug. With all her difficulties, she might help your heart heal more than you can imagine.

There are no guarantees anywhere in life. Ladybug is not what you were looking for, not what you had, but she's what you've got. Only you can decide if this is a journey you want to continue.

NO ONE HERE will fault you for making the most painful decision of all.Many of us have had very difficult dogs, a lot of us have had good outcomes, but not everyone.

I wish you the best of luck. And I still am glad you came here to this board.

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

 

 

 

Thank you Ruth. I do appreciate most of the well-meaning comments and advice. That is what you expect and get when you ask for advice -- a whole bunch of differing views. I am just sorry so many people think the answer to a problem dog is "put her down!".

 

 

You are also correct that I am grieving my last dog, very deeply and I have gotten some counseling and go to a Pet Loss forum almost nightly.

 

 

I am trying to be more accepting of having a new dog at all, but it is very difficult when you can't get ANY specific training advice or suggestions, just put your dog down.

 

(Funny, because one thread before me was about a dog, Miss Scarlet, who also nips and nobody advised HER owner to put her down....)

[Laurel962]

Seriously, you keep putting words in peoples mouths! NO one ever said "point blank kill your dog and do nothing else to help but kill her". Please show us where someone offered nothing else than to kill your dog.

Honestly, from the second descriptions of your dogs behavior, your dog would probably not even be a problem in a different home (one with lots of room to run, structure, no kids, strange people coming and going, an owner who was very dog savvy, etc).

You have yet to respond to anyone's suggestions about looking up NILF, some of the books and trainers and suggestions you have had. What have YOU done since starting this tread to help your dog? No trainer or person can 'fix' your dog, that is on YOU. They can help and guide but the leg work is done at home by you. Please read through the responses, educate yourself, you have gotten above and beyond wonderful advice yet all you hear somehow is "kill your dog". I just don't get what you want us to say. You could not come to a better place to find more knowledgeable people on this problem and this breed. If you can't take the help you are given here and start working with your dog, then there is no hope. It is on you now to start the work. I think it is plain rude to respond to all the kind people who have spent a lot of time typing out lots of responses and advice in the way that you are.

I just couldn't keep reading this tread and not say something even though all that I have said has already been said.

 

Waffles, my problem is with comments like yours (or Delta's) that are so ANGRY -- like "well I told you to put your dog down and you didn't, so stop making excuses!"

 

In fact, if you read several of the posts, they DID SAY you have no choice put to humanely euthanize this dog. OR, you can pay thousands for dog behaviorists OR if you can't, put your dog to sleep.

 

 

I believe Ladybug's behavior would be problem in almost any city or suburban setting. Perhaps on a very remote rural farm, with acres to run, and almost no people, it would be OK. I doubt it though. People are afraid of her because she GROWLS (which nobody has even addressed) and frankly, people get angry when they are nipped, even if it basically has not left a mark.

 

What did I want you to say? "Here is a training program specifically for nipping and growling..." OR "here is how I got my rescue dog to stop growling at strangers...." OR "I know of a trainer in your area you probably have not tried, here is his name...".

 

I certainly did not expect to train a dog with NO WORK. I don't know where you or anyone else got the idea that I have done NO WORK, when I specifically said I have, I have tried things on my own, I have hired a trainer, I have paid for private lessons, I have driven 3 hours round trip to a trainer and so on.

 

 

I am sorry you see responses from me, in an attempt to explain things, as "rude". Rude to me is putting people down or making fun of them -- or telling them they are not trying, when they are trying as hard as they can.

[Carson Crazies]

I am trying to be more accepting of having a new dog at all, but it is very difficult when you can't get ANY specific training advice or suggestions, just put your dog down.

 

But you ARE getting specific advice other than put your dog down.

 

Go to a behaviorist. Front the money.

 

Get some books and start reading http://www.livingwithdogs.us/books/index.html#reactive

 

Try NILIF: NILIF

 

Counter Conditioning? Start over at square one? Don't allow her to rehearse the behavior?

 

Putting your dog down is only one option. It's not the only option. It's just the only one you're seeing right now.

[waffles]

 

(Funny, because one thread before me was about a dog, Miss Scarlet, who also nips and nobody advised HER owner to put her down....)[/b]

 

Probably because the owner came here with a totally different attitude and has responded many times with what THEY are actually doing to help her. You have yet to say what you are doing now that you have gotten advice-you were told to:

keep her away from triggers, learn her triggers, build confidence, stop worrying and look at your reactions and how they are affecting her responses, look up NILF, you have had book suggestions that you need to go look up and read...yet you have yet to apparently do any of those. If you had a more positive response like the other person and not such a dire response (your tone has been that you are overwhelmed, in over your head, at a loss for what to do, etc) you may have been able to read through the advice and get to work like they did.

[Laurel962]

I just saw your new response:

We don't need more explaining-you need to get to work reading and watching videos and learning so you can help your dog. I honestly don't even think you need to spend the money and time on a vet behaviorist. You just need a GOOD trainer who actually knows how to deal with behavior issues to show you how to structure her life. The best thing you can do actually, is post a video-show us how you handle her and how she reacts to different situations. There are trainers and vets on this board along with many people who have been through what you have. We can then see what is really going on and help better than just with your words explaining.

 

 

Waffles: AGAIN -- I have read a dozen books.

 

I have watched twice that many videos.

 

I have videos right now from the public library -- every type, clicker training, behavior problems, socialization, aggressive dogs. Cesar Milan -- you name it.

 

I have called and/or spoken with, emailed over 20 trainers in the Great Cleveland area. I picked the best, most highly recommended trainer, even though she was quite far from me -- AND SHE TOSSED US OUT AFTER 3 SESSIONS.....why? because she was afraid she'd be nipped, and have to report Ladybug for a bite. LEGALLY REQUIRED to do this. She also seemed afraid of Ladybug, who had only growled at her (but she has a very mean, deep growl).

 

I will look into borrowing a video camera to tape some of her behaviors (assuming I can get her to do them, when I want, in front of a camera!) but I do not currently have one.

[waffles]

Waffles, my problem is with comments like yours (or Delta's) that are so ANGRY -- like "well I told you to put your dog down and you didn't, so stop making excuses!"

I never told you to put your dog down. I am not angry, I am frustrated that you keep coming here looking for a magic wand of an answer and are not getting it because it does not exist.

In fact, if you read several of the posts, they DID SAY you have no choice put to humanely euthanize this dog. OR, you can pay thousands for dog behaviorists OR if you can't, put your dog to sleep.

I don't think anyone told you just to put your dog down with no other advice.

I believe Ladybug's behavior would be problem in almost any city or suburban setting. Perhaps on a very remote rural farm, with acres to run, and almost no people, it would be OK. I doubt it though. People are afraid of her because she GROWLS (which nobody has even addressed) and frankly, people get angry when they are nipped, even if it basically has not left a mark.

The issue is the handler. A person with more experience would have already been able to minimize her stressors and get to work on building confidence. So yes, her behavior would not be such a problem in the hands of someone more experienced.

What did I want you to say? "Here is a training program specifically for nipping and growling..." OR "here is how I got my rescue dog to stop growling at strangers...." OR "I know of a trainer in your area you probably have not tried, here is his name...".

But that is not how it works-it is a total lifestyle and way of living with a dog. There is no-do this one thin and poof, she will stop. You need someone to show you how to really structure her life. It is an everyday way of being and attitude you need to learn and adopt.

I certainly did not expect to train a dog with NO WORK. I don't know where you or anyone else got the idea that I have done NO WORK, when I specifically said I have, I have tried things on my own, I have hired a trainer, I have paid for private lessons, I have driven 3 hours round trip to a trainer and so on.

 

But, like I said, you came here for advice and have not taken any of it and started to put it to work. We know you already did lots of things in the past, but you have not taken our advice yet.

I am sorry you see responses from me, in an attempt to explain things, as "rude". Rude to me is putting people down or making fun of them -- or telling them they are not trying, when they are trying as hard as they can.

I am done, everyone is going round and round in circles with you. Please read through the responses you have been given again and again. Take notes, get to work now.

[Laurel962]

Probably because the owner came here with a totally different attitude and has responded many times with what THEY are actually doing to help her. You have yet to say what you are doing now that you have gotten advice-you were told to:

keep her away from triggers, learn her triggers, build confidence, stop worrying and look at your reactions and how they are affecting her responses, look up NILF, you have had book suggestions that you need to go look up and read...yet you have yet to apparently do any of those. If you had a more positive response like the other person and not such a dire response (your tone has been that you are overwhelmed, in over your head, at a loss for what to do, etc) you may have been able to read through the advice and get to work like they did.

 

 

I am not sure what it is about my "attitude" is bothering you -- because I didn't want to euthanize this dog?

 

I DID SAY what I was doing -- all the research, the trainer, the special foods and diet, the consultation with BC rescues (at least one of whom directly refused to help me), books, videos, clicker training, shock collar etc.

 

I DID SAY I kept her away from people, avoided having people over, told people not to pet or touch her. I CAME HERE to ask about things like her damaged ears and teeth, and actually got some valuable information.

 

OF COURSE I looked up NILF and other books or trainers recommended, and got some of those materials from the public library. Why do you assume I have not done these? In fact, in all the material I have read (and I'm a voracious reader), there has not been ONE practical suggestion for stopping a dog from nipping let alone growling.

 

 

Did it occur to you that Miss Scarlett's owner is a different person, with a different personality? Or that she is not grieving the loss of a very beloved older dog?

[Laurae]

If you know someone like this, I'd be curious who it is (though honestly I have no intention of putting my dog down for NIPS THAT DO NOT EVEN BREAK THE SKIN).

 

Frankly I am more than a little shocked on a blog for dog lovers (and BC lovers!) that people are so eager to deal with any behavioral problem by killing the dog. No training? No therapy? Just the needle.

 

Seriously, are you still going on about this? No one is saying that but you, and people may not have even mentioned that option at all except that you grossly overstated the problem in the first place (along with a ton of other inflammatory things) in your first posts.

 

 

[waffles]

[

 

 

I am not sure what it is about my "attitude" is bothering you -- because I didn't want to euthanize this dog?

 

 

Stop saying that! I never told you to kill your dog! Why do you keep bringing that up!?!

Out of probably 10+ different suggestions you have been given you keep coming back to that. Just stop. Who cares that people suggested it-you don't want to do it so stop bringing it up. Move on and let it go. Again, people have given you tons of advice. Take what you want and ignore the rest. Keep us updated on your progress but please, stop attacking us for our advice. You don't like some part of it, just ignore it.

[Laurel962]

I never told you to put your dog down. I am not angry, I am frustrated that you keep coming here looking for a magic wand of an answer and are not getting it because it does not exist.

I don't think anyone told you just to put your dog down with no other advice.

 

 

Oh good grief waffles -- 2-3 people said exactly that. They said there was no choice.

 

 

The issue is the handler. A person with more experience would have already been able to minimize her stressors and get to work on building confidence. So yes, her behavior would not be such a problem in the hands of someone more experienced.

 

I am not a professional handler or trainer. I was very clear on that, that's why I have asked for advice.

 

I am trying to minimize her stressors, which is exactly why I keep her away from people now and stressful situations once I am aware they set her off. I tried to describe those here. Surely you realize that! Everyone can't be "experienced". You only get experience by ASKING and LEARNING.

 

 

 

But that is not how it works-it is a total lifestyle and way of living with a dog. There is no-do this one thin and poof, she will stop. You need someone to show you how to really structure her life. It is an everyday way of being and attitude you need to learn and adopt.

 

FINE -- then tell me how to structure her life! because I am trying, and it is no use, if the answer is "find vet who will euthanize her for biting".

 

I am GLAD to structure her life. I am trying, as much as I can do to do this. I can't learn and adopt something I have NEVER BEEN TOLD HOW OR WHAT TO DO.

 

Frankly, you are ignoring the people who said "put her down" and those who said "go to a behaviorist, and get the money by using some online donation site".

 

 

 

But, like I said, you came here for advice and have not taken any of it and started to put it to work. We know you already did lots of things in the past, but you have not taken our advice yet.

 

I HAVE taken some of the advice; some of it is just repeated the same things over. Yes, I know about Behavioral vets -- I went there right after the trainer kicked us out. Yes, I have asked and talked to dozens of trainers. Yes, I got her a shock collar. Yes, I got her a Martingale collar. Yes, I got her a prong collar. Yes, I got a clicker and then when that clicker wasn't good enough, I got a better clicker. Yes, I got several dozen books on dog training (*most completely contradictory!!!). Yes, I have ordered and watched videos, including about 100 on youtube.com.

[Pippin's person]

Laurel, I posted this on the other thread where you explained that the description here was not as dire as it initially sounded. I realized that it's more appropriate on this thread which is actually about your dog (rather than the other dog).

 

I've dipped in and out of this thread and the other one about Ladybug. What you describe in your most recent explanation of what your dog is doing sounds like a solvable problem--but one that will probably require more management than resolution through training at this point. With the exception of the woman with slippers, all of the nipping incidents you describe in your recent post seem perfectly reasonable to me from the dog's perspective. Not desirable, but not the reactions of a "damaged dog"

 

Regardless of the fact that there are many dogs who will take all manner of what to them is incredibly rude and/or scary behavior on the part of humans, I don't think it's fair to expect dogs to be fine with people stepping over their heads while they are sleeping; pulling burrs out of them with a brush when the burr is tangled in their fur; allowing children (or anyone) to whirl and twirl and squeal around them. It's our job as their companions to understand what will seem odd, scary or rude to them and anticipate how to keep them from reacting. That's something some of us understand intuitively and some of us have to learn (I am in the learning group). If we see they don't react--great, no issue. If we see they do react--well, then we have to act. Sometimes that's a matter of training (as many have described). Sometimes it's a matter of management (as many have also described).

 

You now know that Ladybug doesn't like people she doesn't know well getting in her space and also doesn't like vigorous grooming. Ladybug also sounds like a dog who has decided that she will have to control these situations herself. Maybe she's also bossy--I can't really tell from your description. Regardless, you'll have to show her that you've got her back AND that you run the show. You've been given various suggestions for how to do both.

 

Which ones have you found possible for yourself? Is there one you could start today? Which one?

 

Here's a happy story for you (you've heard others, too--do you remember them? Dana's about Finn was pretty great):

 

We got our first dog (non BC) on a whim one Sat. afternoon. We hated him almost immediately (after the initial random euphoria at doing something completely unexpected wore off). He chased our cats; ran off at every opportunity; nipped us when we tried to groom him or touch the back of his body; nipped us if we tried to cut his nails; chased our cats some more; was impossible to walk on a leash; barked incessantly; nipped at children, etc. He also expressed a joy at life and excitement about all there was in the world that was infectious.

 

So, we went where he took us. We learned how to show him that it was our house and while we were generally happy to have him live in it, it had to be (mostly) by our rules. We learned to recognize our own inconsistencies. We learned how to interpret his behavior and his body and to keep him out of situations that we knew wouldn't work for him. We learned to be fair. We learned this by reading a lot, by going to several different trainers, by interacting with and paying attention to him. We did a lot of trial and error. (ETA: I think it's a terrible idea to try and provoke the response so you can video tape. Please don't do that. I also think it was a terrible idea for the trainer you went to to try and provoke the response. So, please don't feel like the fact that the trainer "tossed you out" is an indication of what is possible with your dog)

 

After the first two nips at children, he's never been allowed loose when there are children in our house (going on 11 years now). We trained him to let us touch him and groom him with slow, desensitizing steps and properly timed correction; we trained him to walk properly on a leash; we trained him not to chase our cats. We don't let him loose because he's still a runner at heart. We came to a compromise on the barking ;-)--he's a terrier after all.

 

We came to love him and to want to make sure he trusts we have his back. We came to love him and to want to help him understand that he doesn't call the shots. It wasn't hard work--it took learning, understanding and patience. It is something we tend to every day. It's what we want to do.

 

We have seven other dogs in our house. I could tell you a version of the same happy story about each one.

[waffles]

In fact, in all the material I have read (and I'm a voracious reader), there has not been ONE practical suggestion for stopping a dog from nipping let alone growling.

 

 

Because there isn't one! It is a total way of dealing with a dog-people have already told you this.

You need to: stand up for her, work on confidence building, desensitizing, counter conditioning, management, etc. It is not black and white. This is why you need a good trainer to explain these things to you. They are hard to come by. The one that kicked you out was not a good trainer or one experienced enough to help you.

[Laurel962]

Seriously, are you still going on about this? No one is saying that but you, and people may not have even mentioned that option at all except that you grossly overstated the problem in the first place (along with a ton of other inflammatory things) in your first posts.

 

 

Laurae, I can go back and copy/paste the comments that said I had to have the dog euthanized.

 

I tried very hard not to exaggerate OR understate the problem. It IS nipping, but if someone sues you -- AS I WAS SUED IN 2000 -- the law doesn't distinguish between a nip or a bite.

 

The parent of a small child won't say "oh it's oK -- just a nip!"; they will sue you.

 

On the other hand, personally I do see a difference -- in temperament, in the possibility the dog can be helped. A really vicious biter might be incorrigible, they might even turn on their owner.

 

I AM upset about the nipping, and the growling (which has not even been addressed) because it has made everyone around me -- friends, family, neighbors -- afraid of Ladybug, and many of them have forbidden me from ever brining her over again.

 

Just before posting, I had another incident, so I was pretty emotional, but I've tried to reply calmly to people.

 

I am SHOCKED some of them suggest euthanasia. I am not ANGRY at them; it's their opinion, even though a harsh one.

[Laurel962]

Laurel, I posted this on the other thread where you explained that the description here was not as dire as it initially sounded. I realized that it's more appropriate on this thread which is actually about your dog (rather than the other dog).

 

I've dipped in and out of this thread and the other one about Ladybug. What you describe in your most recent explanation of what your dog is doing sounds like a solvable problem--but one that will probably require more management than resolution through training at this point. With the exception of the woman with slippers, all of the nipping incidents you describe in your recent post seem perfectly reasonable to me from the dog's perspective. Not desirable, but not the reactions of a "damaged dog"

 

 

Thanks for your post. It is encouraging to hear some positive stories. I am glad your first dog worked out eventually. I had a terrier before my border collie, and boy, I would have never put her down or given her up, but she was a total handful. No more terriers for me!

 

I actually am very patient, and I HAVE taken control of the situation in terms of restricting where Ladybug goes, who she sees and so on.

 

Obviously she needs a new trainer and I am working on that.

 

I guess the sum of what I have read here is that it is more of a management problem than an actual training problem -- containment, and maybe de-sensitization over a LONG period of time.

 

I guess I can see how the situations I described led to nipping BUT IMHO a dog should not bite in those situations -- they should be inhibited from biting humans, ever (unless they are clearly in danger) and that's the part I don't know how to teach -- how the dog can tell what is innocuous (a skreeching child ) VS. what is dangerous (a man in a mask with a gun!).

 

Also to muzzle her when she is around anyone but us -- or put her in a separate room or behind a baby gate (which she hates, so she barks. And she hates the muzzle, and can tear it off).

 

Sigh. But please believe me, I AM trying very hard and I have taken almost all the advice here, except to consider putting her down.

[Laurae]

Laurae, I can go back and copy/paste the comments that said I had to have the dog euthanized.

 

I am not saying people didn't suggest that. But they suggested in response to the serious problem you first presented—you've since backed way down from that initial description and analysis of your dog's behavior, and the responses you've received since then reflect this new current description. No one but you is bringing up euthanasia anymore. It is not helpful for you to continue to be AGHAST at the suggestions you received prior to your new description. You seem to be way too caught up being incredibly self-righteous to even try to understand what people have actually been suggesting since your modified version of events came out. Just stop going back to how everyone told that you had to put your dog down (which is really more completely inflammatory language, and it's one reason people are responding to you less patiently than you might prefer). Instead, make a list of all the suggestions that have been offered to you, decide which ones you will try, and then get off the bleeding computer and try them.

[Laurel962]

But you ARE getting specific advice other than put your dog down.

 

Go to a behaviorist. Front the money.

Get some books and start reading http://www.livingwithdogs.us/books/index.html#reactive

Try NILIF: NILIF

Counter Conditioning? Start over at square one? Don't allow her to rehearse the behavior?

Putting your dog down is only one option. It's not the only option. It's just the only one you're seeing right now.

 

 

OK -- I give up. Yes, people have said "go to a behaviorist, never mind if you can't afford it -- you are cheap! or go online, and use one of those begging sites that are for people whose dying dogs need surgery, and maybe people will just GIVE you $1500-2000 to get your dog treated!!!"

 

I am definitely trying things, reading books and looking for a new trainer. I have a whole stack of new dog training videos from the library.

 

I wanted to see what border collie owners in particular thought or knew or experienced, how they treated their own dogs, etc.

 

Some people have left lovely responses and personal stories, I want you all to know I appreciate those, and definitely am taking them to heart.

 

A couple of the rest of you: I won't name names, but YEESH. You have some issues. You are awfully angry people -- angry at me, and you do not even know me, or my dog, and how devoted I am to ALL my pets -- the difficult pets I have taken on, sometimes because they were "legacies", the pets I kept that nobody else would take on and so forth.

 

You also just are so angry you can't listen: I have TRIED LOTS OF THINGS. This is not remotely the first place I looked. I went to my vet, I went to a behavioral trainer. I read books. I read articles online. I talked, endlessly to trainers and owners and rescue groups and behaviorists.

 

Also: I talked AT LENGTH with the vet tech at "thebehaviorclinic.com" (behavioral vet in my area) and was told pretty bluntly that they use drugs to control the dogs -- prozac and xanax. Xanax is pretty cheap, but anti-depressants are NOT.

[Laurel962]

To everyone who has been nice enough to respond here:

 

Ladybug has had a FULL WRITTEN EVALUATION by a certified, licensed professional behavioral trainer.

 

I have the report, and I'd be glad to send it to anyone who was curious enough to read it (because some people here have implied I have never done this, or can't be bothered, and that is not true). I am not saying you have to do this -- not at all! -- nor it is in the sense "let me shove THIS in your face!"

 

Just that I DID NOT come here, right after adopting Ladybug and just cry and vent and sit around uselessly. I came here after MONTHS of trying all kinds of things, books...videos...online resources...trainers & behaviorists. Clickers, shock collars, prong collars, muzzles.

 

The very short version is: she's fine around our house, but we can't take her anywhere else without serious caution.

 

It sounds like more than a few of you have dogs like this -- who are not good with any other people (but their owners). Also that nipping is not especially rare amongst border collies.

 

Taking her to "thebehaviorclinic.com" is not off the table -- it will probably have to wait until her physical next month, and what kind of tax refund we get.

[mickif]

OK, I wasn't going to respond, too many of my own emotions BUT, and I will try to make it short, and yes, I am frustrated... Laurel962, your original post made it sound like Ladybug could be a serious biter and following posts continued to make it sound like it was close to hopeless, afraid you'd lose your home, etc., this is why I think some may have suggested the possibility of having to have her PTS. As the thread has progressed, it is obvious to me that she is a nipper when she feels she cannot escape any other way. It has happened, what, now 3 times? You know she does this, what are you doing to keep from putting her in the situations that trigger her nipping? What is your reaction when she does this?

 

I have an aussie, who when younger would sneak up behind (men, happened twice) and nip their calves before we even knew it was happening, never breaking skin. One day my partner was talking with my neighbor over the hog wire fence and Ollie was laying down next to him. Partner turned to walk away, Ollie got up. went to fence line and nipped our neighbor on the butt as he turned to walk away. Partner was so embarrassed and shocked, he grabbed Ollie by the collar and walked him, on hind feet, up the hill and threw him in the kennel for a long time out. Ollie has never nipped anyone again... No, he was not beat.

 

If any of my dogs ever tried to nip me, I would yell, HEY, and give them a time out. letting them know I highly disapprove. This is what they know is a correction. They very rarely need any kind of correction so it means something when it happens. Again, what do you do to help her understand that nipping is an unacceptable behavior?

 

I am sorry for the loss of your last pup but you cannot change the fact, I know this very, very well. Grieving and sadness will continue for a long time. You now have a new doggie friend. What has helped me is that I try to be the best doggie partner that I can be because my recently passed best friend would want it this way. My dogs can feel when I'm sad, depressed, etc. They can very well take advantage of a weakened state of mind, one in particular is happy to step in and try to be in charge... But then I believe that dogs are basically opportunist . It is very possible that Ladybug is reacting to your emotions.

 

Also, am wondering, does Ladybug have full run of the house and you ? Is she crate trained? Are there house rules she follows?