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Help! my adopted rescue BC nips and growls!


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And the teeth could be worn down due to genetics, perhaps, as well. My Jester, who is only 11, has severely worn down bottom canine teeth, and they have been wearing down his whole life bit by bit. I never used a tennis ball with him in his life. We only used, ever, a soft floppy frisbee, and he has never been much of a chewer on anything. The only thing I can think might explain it would be simply the grit on the frisbee or ball, from throwing it in the dirt and then getting picked up in his mouth thousands of times in his lifetime. But that seems just a smidge far-fetched (?). Or is it?

 

On the other hand, he has none of the small front teeth between his canines on the top that are supposed to be there.....never did, apparently. So go figure. I know that genetics play a huge role in what kind of teeth we get, stands to reason it would apply to dogs. Maybe some dogs have softer teeth than others. I have always found Jester's tooth wear a bit of an embarrassment, as if I did not take good enough care of my dog. But I don't know what caused it. And if it were caused by grit on balls and frisbees, then I know that Jester would have chosen to have had his play and never mind about the teeth. :)

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No, you just have to be smart about it. Don't get them a hard jolly ball (the push-play, the bounce-play with the handles are softer) and let them push it around for way too long, years after years (my dog uses his maybe 30-45min a week, the dog in the photos does it for that long every day). Get KONG tennis balls, they're made for dogs and not as hard as actual tennis balls, frisbee's are not chew toys and should only be used to actually play with-just don't use a super hard one made for humans and crank it at their face (I assume that is how my dog broke a bunch of his front teeth in his previous home). I love the HERO brand of dog frisbees btw.

 

Thanks, I'll definitely consider those recommendations when figuring what toys to get !

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No vet would be willing to put down a beautiful, healthy dog. A dog who bites is by definition not a beautiful healthy dog. It is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

And FWIW, at every shelter I know, owner turn ins don't have to be held any length of time; they can be euthanized immediately. And if you tell the shelter she's bitten on more than one occasion, you can rest assured that they are not going to let her languish for days or months. She will be PTS immediately.

 

 

 

 

 

I realize that vets may be different in different parts of the country, or rural vs. city.

 

I had a friend who turned in a dog -- huge dog, over 160 lbs -- part German Shepherd, part wolf. The dog attacked her and her husband several times, breaking the skin, unpredictable, attacked her other dog. Finally when she was pregnant, it was too much and she took the dog to her vet.

 

They would not euthanize it, because "it's a healthy dog, and we don't put down healthy animals to convenience the owner". They advised training, choke collars, muzzles, etc.

 

So she turned the dog into the dog warden. They told her they keep the dogs for 1-2 weeks depending on how full they are and then euthanize. They would not adopt her dog out due to the bite history. However, they do not have the facilities, time or vet techs to euthanize "on demand".

 

This is the reality in the area I live in.

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You came here and are horribly upset because the dog you adopted it showing aggression and you don't know how to deal with it.

A nip *is* a bite. Its a inhibited bite, but its a bite. And without help, she is likely to bite again, and possibly break the skin and injure someone. Dogs that bite, even if its because they are afraid are aggressive and a legal and moral liability to their owner.

 

 

 

I do consider a nip a bite, and so would anyone who was nipped and then sued! However, I wanted to be clear. All bites are not the same in severity or intent by the dog, and yes, I consider a nip to be a kind of warning (like a mom dog to a puppy) and not a full-fledged, vicious attack.

 

 

I know you had a bad experience with a trainer, but if you were to be more specific about where you live you might get some referrals for recommendations. You may also check into more options, my behavioral vet charged far, far less than what the one you talked to did.

 

 

 

I think I have gotten terribly discouraged, that a trainer I worked so hard to find just tossed us out after a few sessions and ZERO real specifics. I apologize, I thought I'd said where I live -- Cleveland, Ohio --- and I'd be thrilled if someone could suggest anyone else in the area. I feel like I have exhausted the trainer possibilities around me. The one who tossed us out, she was more than an hour away (each way); I could not find anyone in my county.

 

Also: there is only one behavioral vet in this whole part of the state, and this is what she charges, I talked to her vet tech at length. Believe me, I'd love to try this option if it was more affordable.

 

 

 

I think you are grieving for the dog you lost, the dog you wanted and the dog that might have been right along with the stress about the dog you have now.

 

 

I'm sorry to be negative. The whole situation feels like it is very negative to me. And yes, I am grieving terribly for the dog I lost -- she was my whole world, my "heart dog" and I miss her terribly.

 

 

 

And, FWIW, I don't think I have ever met a vet who would not euthanize a young healthy dog who had serious behavioral problems and was a bite risk. If my vet refused to do so (and I hope you have been talking with your vet and he or she knows already the dog has issues)

 

 

I have not discussed euthanizing Ladybug with my current vet. I said I don't think it is so easy to get a pet euthanized -- not where I live -- unless it is very well established that the animal is very sick, injured or elderly, in pain and about to die anyways. That has been my experience and that of my close friends. As I said, I just went through this in 2007, with a 19 year old cat who was as sick as an animal could possibly be, and that is what I was told.

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[That's your quote, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

A number of people have said "put her down", and I guess I find that shocking.

 

 

When an ear scars down from an aural hematoma it has wrinkles that look like suture lines. The process also causes the ears to sort of shrink. Unless you actually found the sutures or have a vet report saying this is what happened, I really doubt your theory is correct. I am not a betting person and I would bet some big money that your dogs ears were not torn to shreds and sewn back together.

 

 

I am obviously not a vet. I will discuss the possibility of aural hematomas with the vet when we go (a few weeks from now). I am just reporting what I have observed. I am not a medical person, and have never heard of "aural hematomas".

 

I did look them up online, lots of photos and descriptions there, and what is pictured looks NOTHING like Ladybug's ears.

 

I have a lot of scars myself, and what is on her ears looks like scars. The scars extend PAST the edge of her ears, especially on the left. The scars are on BOTH SIDES of the ear, as if it was slashed and then put back together.

 

Obviously I could be wrong; I am reporting what I have observed and was very concerned about. No one at the shelter, not even the vet who treated her, noticed or mentioned this in her medical records. The scars are old and very well healed.

 

 

Yeah, it's possible, but not likely. Most of the dogs I see who gradually wear down their teeth manage to do so quit evenly.

 

 

You may definitely be right on the teeth. I've never seen anything like this myself, but it's not like I've owned dozens of dogs. Neither of my two previous dogs (nor the dogs we had when I was a kid!) had teeth with the incisors worn flat like this. And they LOVED to chew tennis balls and other toys.

 

 

 

 

Nope, still not saying it's hopeless, but you sure are.

 

 

Again, I am sorry to be so negative, but remember I've heard nothing but bad news for the past 4 months, and at a time when I am still grieving a terrible loss.

 

Here is what I hoped to hear: there is a positive course of training for dogs with this problem -- it might take time and effort, but in the end it has a high rate of success.

 

 

 

The specialists would cost upwards of $2000 and that is conservative (initially -- much more over her lifespan).

 

I've heard that before from other people who use it as an excuse to not seek treatment, but I have never actually seen anyone's bill get that high. Generally you are looking at about $300 to $500 for the initial consult. Why don't you try VetFax or PetFax offered by Tufts?

 

 

I am not using this as an "excuse not to seek treatment"; in fact, I wrote them and talked to their head vet tech at length about treatment, including payment plans. I asked what the cost might be over the first year or two, including medications. Also, this price was quoted to me by the trainer, who said "this is the Cadillac way to go and the best chance of success, but it is very expensive and so most dog owners can't do this".

 

I don't know what VetFax or PetFax is. I'll google that and look into it.

 

 

 

Nipping is just a type of biting. You are absolutely correct that she could have done much more damage, but it is still a bite. Clearly you can't have a dog that is biting people, not in our society where people sue each other at the drop of a hat. It may very well be possible to rehab her with time, patience and lots of work.

 

I agree -- I just wanted to clarify. What is LEGALLY ACTIONABLE (a nip would be as bad as tearing bite) is still different in terms of how the dog acts and why. I know that a nip could easily get me sued. That's why I am concerned.

 

I also panicked when the TRAINER -- a trainer who advertises she specializes in aggression, shelter dogs, biting, and reactive dogs -- would not work with her. I would be willing to do the work IF anyone would just TELL ME WHAT TO DO. I can't find any information -- not online, not from trainers, not from my vet, not from other dog owners, not in books. Believe me I have put a lot of effort into trying to find out information.

 

 

From your above posts it doesn't look like you want to do that. What else do you expect us to say when you tell us that you are unable or unwilling to put the work into her? Do you want someone to play the hero, swoop in and take her off your hands?

 

 

I am sorry if it came across that way. I am more than willing to do work with Ladybug, and in fact, in my own amateur way, I try to work with her all the time. I absolutely am not asking anyone here to "take her off my hands".

 

No, you tell the vet she bites, is a liability and needs to be put down. There are plenty who will sympathize and help you out if that is what you ultimately choose to do.

 

 

Honestly -- I am astonished you folks have vets who will do this. Astonished. I have a friend whose daughter is in veterinary college; she confirmed this for me. Most vets today will NOT euthanize an OTHERWISE HEALTHY animal on the "say so" of an owner. Why? a lot of people will tell you that a dog bites, just to get rid of a dog they don't want, or who is not cute anymore.

 

Now -- if a dog is taken away by the county for biting someone, that's another story. Then the county has it put down, by the dog warden. Obviously I do not want it to come to that.

 

 

I've BEEN in your shoes. Hell, I am currently in them! So don't tell me I don't know what you are going through. If euthanasia is not an option for you then step up to the plate, educate yourself and dig in the for the long haul. You do have a choice and each option has pros and cons.]]]]

 

 

I am HERE, to try and educate myself, and get practical advice -- to hear what other border collie owners have done in similar situations and of course, I was hoping to hear some stories with "happy endings" .... shelter dogs who had fear/aggression problems but were successfully rehabbed.

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Yep, had a dog with the same thing and I agree with Liz. Google "aural hematoma" and look at the pictures.

 

 

Thanks, I did google "aural hematoma" and maybe that is what she had, but honestly, her scars look NOTHING like the photos.

 

They are on both sides of the ear, and they really appear to have been stitched back together.

 

I am not a vet or any medical background; I am just trying to report what I have observed. When I see the vet next, I will of course have him look at this.

 

 

 

 

Yes, frisbee and tennis balls wear down teeth just in the way you have described.

 

 

Well, this does look like the wear on her teeth -- but strangely, she has zero interest in Frisbee and never looks at tennis balls. She likes soft, squeaky toys.

 

I know a lot of trainers around the country, and I might be able to find you a referral for someone new who you can talk to who might be a better choice than the trainer you worked with. Wouldn't it be worth one more try to get some help? If you are not comfortable posting your location to the main board you can send me a PM. I don't need your address, just a city/state.

 

 

I apologize, I thought I gave this right up front -- I live in Cleveland, Ohio. And I'd be thrilled to get some references, though honestly I did a lot of research and called just about every trainer within 50 miles of my home.

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Tess has managed to wear her teeth down to almost nubs. Not from balls or frisbee but from bones and just usage over the 14 plus years. As for your dog's teeth it sounds like they are just worn down.

 

You can see how worn her teeth are...her back teeth are almost gone and her front small teeth are almost gone too.

 

Outeeth.jpg

 

As for your dog nipping, it would be og great concern. It is setting yourself up for a lawsuit. I suggest paying for a behavorist. If you have to drice a couple of hours, so be it. I uaed to drive three hrs each way for sheepdogs lessons, sometimes twice a week, for years.

 

Your grieving for your last dogs which may cloud your judgement/love/thoughts for this dog. Do you think this dog is picking up on these vibes?

 

 

Not all dogs can be saved. I work with Border Collie rescue and we have had to put biters down.The liability is too great.

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Here, raise the money to pay for a behaviorist appointment.

 

 

petchance.org

 

 

 

 

Well, that was interesting, to be sure. The site has only 17 open cases; some have raised zero money. The most raised is $115, towards lifesaving surgery for a dog struck by a car.

 

I am not sure this is a very effective or legitimate way of raising thousands (or even hundreds) of dollars. None of the cases were about raising funds for a BEHAVIOR problem.

 

 

Actually, what I was hoping to hear was perhaps from some other BC owners with aggressive or fearful dogs who DID use a Behavioral vet -- if it worked, what they did exactly (besides drugs) and if it was worth the cost.

 

 

I ask because I got a behaviorist (not the vet type, more the trainer type) in 1998 for the dog I had then. And it was costly, and I'd describe it as "philosophical". The behaviorist came to our home, sat on the floor with the dog -- talked in general about "dog behavior through the millennia" and her own dogs, then asked us about our marriage, then ordered Chinese food on the phone.....then presented us with a bill for over $200 for her time (some of which was spent chatting about personal stuff and some spent ordering Chinese food.

 

My husband was furious at this useless rip-off and I was terribly disappointed. I guess I am afraid of a repeat of this.

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Laurel, I'm a Cleveland native.. My family is still there. I know, from first-hand experience, that there ARE vets who will euthanize a dog with behavior problems so severe they're overwhelming the owner. You & your dog are there. Cleveland is not rural, undeveloped, behind-the-times, or "out there." It's a major metro area, and all the major conveniences of animal training & care are available there.

 

That's it, all I'll say.

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Tess has managed to wear her teeth down to almost nubs. Not from balls or frisbee but from bones and just usage over the 14 plus years. As for your dog's teeth it sounds like they are just worn down.

 

You can see how worn her teeth are...her back teeth are almost gone and her front small teeth are almost gone too.

 

 

Yeah, that's really what they look like. Her front small teeth are very worn down too. But Ladybug is only 5 (or so they told me). Her surrender papers say she was born in 2007!!!!

 

 

 

 

As for your dog nipping, it would be og great concern. It is setting yourself up for a lawsuit. I suggest paying for a behavorist and iars.f you have to drice a couple of hours, so be it. I uaed to drive three hrs each way for sheepdogs lessons, sometimes twice a week, for years.

 

 

 

I'm sorry there is some typo there after behaviorist -- "and iars" -- what does this mean?

 

I did drive over 1 hour 15 minutes each way to her trainer last month. I am willing to drive some distance to get her help; I was trying to point that I HAVE TRIED, it's not like there was a problem and I instantly gave up.

 

 

 

 

 

Your grievine for your last dogs which may cloud your judgement/love/thoughts for this dog. Do you think this dog is picking up on these vibes?

 

 

I think that is a factor -- for me. I don't think Ladybug realizes this. I am grieving the loss of my old dog very deeply.

 

 

 

 

 

Not all dogs can be saved. I work with Border Collie rescue and we have had to put biters down.The liability is too great.

 

 

I do know that, but Ladybug does not fit the typical profile of what I would have recognized as an aggressive, dangerous dog. She was seen by animal control, by a very reputable vet (who herself raises border collies!) and then placed in a highly regarded "no kill" shelter -- where they would have not only temperament tested her but also exposed her to many other dogs.

 

I do not believe they would have knowingly placed her, if they thought she was aggressive or a dangerous biter.

 

I have to think she either did not show this behavior (because she was frightened and intimidated in the shelter) OR she has developed it in response to being adopted -- the old "hide your real self for the first month, until it is too late to get returned".

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OK, here is the deal...you asked for advice. We gave it to you. You countered back with excuses or justifications etc....

 

 

If she was my dog I would either find another behavorist to fix the issue or put the dog down. I am not willing to lose my house and farm if I have a dog with bites with no reason and history. Whether they placed her with a known bite history, doesn' t make it right. They might have been hoping it was fixable but I tell you that our Border Collie rescue WILL NOT place a dog with a bite history.

 

What are you going to you? It's your dog and your responsiblity.

 

We gave you our advice. You may not like it but you asked for our advice.

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If you were looking for a board certified behaviorist, you might have a hard time finding one, there's only a few. There's one in Columbus which is a drive but not unmanageable from Cleveland.

 

You might also contact Karen Overall in PA and ask her office if she can refer anyone in your area.

 

This clinic is listed as recommended on the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's website: http://www.thebehaviorclinic.com/

 

Per this website her rate is $175/he with the initial consultation being 2-3 hours and including phone follow ups (expensive, but not the thousands you were quoted elsewhere).

 

You could also check with Ohio State U's vet school, they have a behavior vet and if that's too far to go you could maybe get a referral. http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/behavior

 

Take a deep breath, this is really doable.

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Actually, what I was hoping to hear was perhaps from some other BC owners with aggressive or fearful dogs who DID use a Behavioral vet -- if it worked, what they did exactly (besides drugs) and if it was worth the cost.

 

Well, if you do a search in this forum OR join the aggressive behavior in dogs forum, as someone suggested earlier, you will find many, many LENGTHY stories about what people did with their fearful and aggressive dogs. The stories go on for pages and pages, and encompass months and years of people's experiences. (Off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific dog names... but I'm sure some forum members will remember them!) Likewise, "Bringing Light to Shadow" by Pam Dennison tells a very detailed story about how one woman saved the life of one aggressive dog.

 

None of these stories goes, "We found a vet behaviorist who cost only $50 and within two weeks had fixed the dog." All of these stories are about management and slow desensitization and time.

 

I didn't use a behavioral vet, though I'm sure I could have found one. I just used an experienced trainer, who first evaluated my dog (home visit and initial consult of $90, I think)... and after watching him for a long time - as he circled us from 10 feet, barking and growling at the 'stranger' - took a chance that he was fear reactive rather than aggressive. Then took a walk with us around my neighborhood and watched his reaction to people/cars/dogs. This trainer allowed me to join a puppy class, but we sat far from the other dogs the first week, and Buddy hid under my chair, and as soon as the trainer saw that he was over his tolerance level (threshold), advised us to get up and leave. Likewise, week 2 and week 3. By week 6, Buddy could stay for the whole class and even do some "heel" circles with the other dogs moving around him. And, as I said before, months and months of carefully strategized walks: we stayed 20 feet back from other dog walkers, so Buddy could get used to being near people, but not really have to interact with them. Found one very nice man (psychologist) who would walk in front of us dropping treats. For months, Buddy would growl if the man turned to face us. After a year (more or less?), the man became 'trusted' and Buddy would run happily to him.

 

And, as we quickly learned, dogs don't generalize well. So, the fact that this man was trusted did not mean any other men were to be trusted. The ripple effect of equating people with trust and good things took years. And, truthfully, can still be undone with a too-fast leaning down by the wrong guy. Buddy will still startle away from people who push his threshold by expecting too much contact, too soon.

 

In between the progress, many backwards steps, as I exposed him to too much, too soon. And as I refused to learn the lessons I should have learned: Buddy does not do well with groups of dogs, Buddy does not like dogs charging at him, Buddy will flip another dog who crowds his personal space. Every time I allowed a bad situation, I reinforced his belief that bad situations were all around. It was, very much, one step forward/two steps back.

 

And reading: everything by Patricia McConnell, and Suzanne Clothier. I ordered books by the dozen when I first had Buddy, and after a few years was happily able to send them along to someone who needed them more.

 

If I had any good advice to give - beyond 'give it time' - it would be to surrender what you WANT this dog to be, and accept who this dog IS. She's not your old dog. She's not a sweetie. She's not "everybody loves her." If you expect those things, you're setting her up for failure. She is a dog who needs slow movement and tentative exposure to any new stimulus. She will nip you if you pull her burrs too hard. She has triggers (fuzzy slippers?) that will set her off, and you need to learn what they are. You likely can't have visitors she doesn't know unless you put her in a closed room or crate. You can't take her to the dog park. You can't let her near children. This is the reality of living with this new dog.

 

It kind of feels like you're bumping your head (and grief) against the reality of this new dog, and saying: "But I shouldn't HAVE to watch a dog near children! But I shouldn't HAVE to worry about getting nipped when I comb burrs!" But you do.

 

So - you either have to face this reality, or decide that you can't.

 

Mary

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Here you go. PetFax at Tufts is $250.

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/petfax.shtml

 

Or you can do something called Vet Fax also thru Tufts. Your vet determines the price.

 

A few years ago a local DVM behaviorist came to my home for $350. Yes, the dog was put on meds. I did not realize how generally anxious my dog was until the prozac had kicked in. You wouldn't deny your dog or

youeself antibiotics for an infection or yourself insulin for diabetes or an antihypertensive for high blood pressure (or at least i hope that you wouldn't), so I am not sure why you would deny your dog meds for a chemical imbalance in the brain, if it was determined that is what the dog had.

 

These drugs are all generic and are dirt cheap at places like Walmart and Target.

 

I typed a long response earlier, but my computer froze and the response was lost. If you search my screen name, you should find my adoptive dog's story on this board.

 

I could not be happpier with the outcome.

 

My dog has enriched my life tremedously and she has given me an invaluable education. And she has surpassed my and other's expectations. However, she still needs to be managed and will always need to be managed.

 

From mbc1963: "If I had any good advice to give - beyond 'give it time' - it would be to surrender what you WANT this dog to be, and accept who this dog IS."

 

This should be your mantra.

 

Very helpful authors are: Pam Dennison; Pat McConnell; Jean Donaldson; Leslie McDevitt; Ali Brown

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Well, if you do a search in this forum OR join the aggressive behavior in dogs forum, as someone suggested earlier, you will find many, many LENGTHY stories about what people did with their fearful and aggressive dogs. The stories go on for pages and pages, and encompass months and years of people's experiences. (Off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific dog names... but I'm sure some forum members will remember them!) Likewise, "Bringing Light to Shadow" by Pam Dennison tells a very detailed story about how one woman saved the life of one aggressive dog.

 

None of these stories goes, "We found a vet behaviorist who cost only $50 and within two weeks had fixed the dog." All of these stories are about management and slow desensitization and time.

 

I didn't use a behavioral vet, though I'm sure I could have found one. I just used an experienced trainer, who first evaluated my dog (home visit and initial consult of $90, I think)... and after watching him for a long time - as he circled us from 10 feet, barking and growling at the 'stranger' - took a chance that he was fear reactive rather than aggressive. Then took a walk with us around my neighborhood and watched his reaction to people/cars/dogs. This trainer allowed me to join a puppy class, but we sat far from the other dogs the first week, and Buddy hid under my chair, and as soon as the trainer saw that he was over his tolerance level (threshold), advised us to get up and leave. Likewise, week 2 and week 3. By week 6, Buddy could stay for the whole class and even do some "heel" circles with the other dogs moving around him. And, as I said before, months and months of carefully strategized walks: we stayed 20 feet back from other dog walkers, so Buddy could get used to being near people, but not really have to interact with them. Found one very nice man (psychologist) who would walk in front of us dropping treats. For months, Buddy would growl if the man turned to face us. After a year (more or less?), the man became 'trusted' and Buddy would run happily to him.

 

And, as we quickly learned, dogs don't generalize well. So, the fact that this man was trusted did not mean any other men were to be trusted. The ripple effect of equating people with trust and good things took years. And, truthfully, can still be undone with a too-fast leaning down by the wrong guy. Buddy will still startle away from people who push his threshold by expecting too much contact, too soon.

 

In between the progress, many backwards steps, as I exposed him to too much, too soon. And as I refused to learn the lessons I should have learned: Buddy does not do well with groups of dogs, Buddy does not like dogs charging at him, Buddy will flip another dog who crowds his personal space. Every time I allowed a bad situation, I reinforced his belief that bad situations were all around. It was, very much, one step forward/two steps back.

 

And reading: everything by Patricia McConnell, and Suzanne Clothier. I ordered books by the dozen when I first had Buddy, and after a few years was happily able to send them along to someone who needed them more.

 

If I had any good advice to give - beyond 'give it time' - it would be to surrender what you WANT this dog to be, and accept who this dog IS. She's not your old dog. She's not a sweetie. She's not "everybody loves her." If you expect those things, you're setting her up for failure. She is a dog who needs slow movement and tentative exposure to any new stimulus. She will nip you if you pull her burrs too hard. She has triggers (fuzzy slippers?) that will set her off, and you need to learn what they are. You likely can't have visitors she doesn't know unless you put her in a closed room or crate. You can't take her to the dog park. You can't let her near children. This is the reality of living with this new dog.

 

It kind of feels like you're bumping your head (and grief) against the reality of this new dog, and saying: "But I shouldn't HAVE to watch a dog near children! But I shouldn't HAVE to worry about getting nipped when I comb burrs!" But you do.

 

So - you either have to face this reality, or decide that you can't.

 

Mary

 

Mary, I think that this is an absolutely excellent post for the OP.

 

To the OP, I wish you the best of luck with Ladybug.

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I haven't seen a single post in this thread that has callously and dismissively told the OP to have the dog put down.

 

What I have seen is multiple realistic posts that demonstrate that the writers know that with a lot of work and patience it may be possible to turn the dog around but that they also know that for many people it is too big an ask to expect them to be able to do it.

 

Plenty of perfectly sociable dogs die for want of a home. It's a harsh reality that not enough suitable homes are available for dogs with issues like this. The chances of finding such a home are slim to none and it may be the kindest thing for the dog to have her euthanized if the OP's personal circumstances do not allow her to be kept safely. If that were the outcome the OP should feel no guilt.

 

Having said that, in all fairness to the dog I do think that a 1-1 assessment but a reputable professional is the least that she deserves. We can't judge the severity of the problem on the basis of what is written on line and it would be unfair to condemn a dog to death at a distance.

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Could she be hurt or in pain? And has a blood panel been done to rule out any diseases or problems.

 

Also I forget where I was reading it but she could of reacted to the fuzzy slipper if she got shocked as they went by.

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Mary....one of the best posts I have read!

I had an arm long post myself that I carefully wrote, re read, re wrote and decided to trash when I read yours.

 

 

All I will add here is that I am personally in a situation where my dogs have a huge influence on my life. Partially the aggressive rescue that never made it into the foster program. When you have a dog with issues, they can not simply be a "further ran" type of member of the family. But they need to have their very own focus. More so than the nice and well adjusted one that you can take all your time and love on and play with. The type of dog that needs more help will change this fun time into learning time. Which has its rewards all of its own!

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You have gotten tons of advice, most of which is really good. I'm not sure you are going to get an answer that the dog will be just fine and it won't be too hard or too expensive, because frankly from how you've described the dog, that's just not realistic. But, here's my experience with a difficult dog, perhaps that may help somewhat.

 

I have a dog who is fear aggressive towards people. She was also from a rescue group. She's a border collie mix and was in a household where they had a small child who basically tormented her. A friend of mine evaluated her and thought she was worth trying. The hope was that the family was just not quite equipped for dealing with a high drive herding dog. I was hoping channeling her into a dog sport might help quite a bit. Her issues turned out to be a bit more extensive that we realized. She has pretty deep seated fear aggression towards people. I'm sure some of it is genetically a poor temperament combined with being in a bad situation.

 

I've had this dog 7 1/2 years now - I got her when she was 1 1/2 years old. She hasn't ever gotten over her issues, but I've learned how to manage her. For her, the main issue is that she does not like other people to touch her. If a person tries to pet her, 99% of the time she will bite them - and by bite, I mean the same as your dog - she'll nip, but has never broken skin. She's gotten to the point where most people can be around her as long as they do not touch her. But, in certain situations, man in my home, especially if he has a hat on, she'll affirmatively nip him on the feet if they even move towards her.

 

When I first got her, I worked on socializing her by walking up to someone and having them feed her string cheese or another treat. But, they could not touch her in any way or that would trigger her. Basically I had to learn to be super protective of her. It was my responsibility to not let the person do more. It was my responsibility to watch my dog carefully and pull her out of the situation when it got to be too much (which was pretty darn quick, especially in the beginning). Even now if someone comes over to my home that she doesn't know, she goes in a crate. I'm not going to take a chance that she would feel uncomfortable and bite the person. Even with people I know, I am super careful and protective of her. My dog is not one who can ever be around kids, even on leash. Obviously part of the protectiveness is that I'd prefer not to be sued, but most importantly I don't want my dog to be in a position where she felt she had to bite. That's a big signal that your dog is super uncomfortable.

 

I did not go to a veterinary behaviorist, but I did tons of reading. I joined the shy K9s group on yahoogroups. And I had to re-evaluate my expectations and training with her immensely. Luckily I had quite a few experienced people I could work with and bounce ideas off of. And, I'd trained quite a few dogs in the past, so I had some experience myself.

 

This dog has competed successfully in flyball for many years. She's not dog agressive at all, although I'm always careful to keep an eye on her as there is an ocassional dog who will trigger her. But, this dog is a lifetime management issue. I have one teammate who can get her out of a crate and walk her on leash. One. Luckily the dog is OK with my mom coming to take care of her when I go out of town. But the one time she had to be hospitalized overnight at the vets for a dental, she had to have a muzzle and e-collar on her the entire time and they had me go back to get her out of her kennel run to pick her up.

 

So, I think it might be possible that you could learn to manage your dog. From the frustration you've expressed, I'm not sure that's something that you are really comfortable with. I think it's fairly unrealistic to think your dog can be cured. At least from my experience, your dog is not going to become a people friendly (or even dog friendly) kind of dog. She might become very loyal to you and you might be able to enjoy her. My reactive dog is actually one of my favorite dogs - she always stays right with me, she's super affectionate with me, and actually one of my favorite dogs to run in flyball. But she's never going to become a dog that likes other people. She'll put up with a few things to get a treat & she's learned to ignore most people, but that's about as good as it going to get. For me, I was able to be happy with that. I have other dogs who are good with people and kids. That's not her.

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Also I forget where I was reading it but she could of reacted to the fuzzy slipper if she got shocked as they went by.

 

You know - it sounds farfetched about the slipper, but I had a dog who had been disciplined with a shock collar in his previous home and I realized that static generated from brushing him set him off.

 

There can be multiple reasons why the dog is the way she is - figuring them out can be challenging and interesting. and yeah, sometimes it is the handler's issue. If she doesn't trust you enough to take care of her - or feels she must take care of you, or simply doesn't respect you enough because everything in life is free to her, that can cause nipping as well. You can't always be sweet and cuddly with BCs - some of them will run right over top of you if they don't respect you, my Robin among them. I like a dog of that type, but not everyone does or can handle them.

 

I liked the first suggestion - take the dog to a sheepdog handler - a good one that really knows the breed. Use the funnel method and work your way down from what you know about her.

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I'm not certain who you talked to, but Dr. Meghan Herron is the ACVB diplomate at OSU (in Columbus). She's a great clinician, who sees dogs like Ladybug on a weekly basis, and she sure as shooting sees private clients. At most, you might need a referral from your vet.

 

Info below:

 

 

"Scheduling an Appointment

You can schedule an appointment by calling the client line at 614-292-3551. Afternoon, evening, and Saturday appointment hours are available to accommodate most schedules.

 

Questions about the Behavioral Medicine Clinic? Email OSUVET.BehaviorMedicine@cvm.osu.edu"

 

 

 

Best of luck with your girl. Please listen to what folks here have said, and take her to a veterinary behaviorist (or, restrict all access to all unfamiliar people at all times, or put her to sleep :mellow:/>).

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If I had any good advice to give - beyond 'give it time' - it would be to surrender what you WANT this dog to be, and accept who this dog IS. She's not your old dog.

 

It kind of feels like you're bumping your head (and grief) against the reality of this new dog, and saying: "But I shouldn't HAVE to watch a dog near children! But I shouldn't HAVE to worry about getting nipped when I comb burrs!" But you do.

 

I swore I wasn't going to respond to this thread anymore. There have been a LOT of wonderful responses, but I have to bring this single comment/attitude from Mary up again.

 

We all can learn from Mary's wise words. The dog is who the dog is. That doesn't mean there isn't any hope, it means we have to start where we are, not with the last dog we had, or the dog we thought we were getting.

 

Ladybug might be able to be more comfortable and at ease, with anywhere from some to a lot of work on your part. This will mean re-arranging your life, yes. Perhaps for several months, perhaps forever. Only you can decide whether or not to go down that road with her. It might not work. It might work like gangbusters. It's a risk.

 

Mary also points out that you might still be grieving the loss of your beloved previous girl. Oh, my dear, we've all been there. DH and I lost 5 pets in 3 years. The first to go was Buzz, who changed my husband's life so much for the better. I'm tearing up writing this, and we put Buzz to sleep, (bone cancer) exactly 4 years ago on Halloween.

 

Please work with your own grief about your loss. Grieve that you don't have that wonderful being who taught you about border collies anymore. Maybe, just maybe, there is something you can learn from Ladybug. With all her difficulties, she might help your heart heal more than you can imagine.

 

There are no guarantees anywhere in life. Ladybug is not what you were looking for, not what you had, but she's what you've got. Only you can decide if this is a journey you want to continue.

 

NO ONE HERE will fault you for making the most painful decision of all.Many of us have had very difficult dogs, a lot of us have had good outcomes, but not everyone.

 

I wish you the best of luck. And I still am glad you came here to this board.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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