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Personally, I think that 15 minutes is quite good. If I remember from the beginning of this thread, she has come a long way. I am sure she will continue to improve.

 

She is STILL a puppy. Remember, some dogs will take 1.5 - 2 years or longer before really settling down. How old is she now?

 

Jovi

 

I agree with Jovi. Though I've had only older dogs, each dog didn't have a lot of 'play' time with humans before they came to me. One had been totally isolated from all humans except her a**hole owner for over a year before being surrendered to a rescue. Then she lived another year with a woman who was a bit overwhelmed with too many pets, so while Shonie got good food, shelter and vet care, she didn't have much interaction with people at all.

 

All my dogs had to learn how to play. And it took them a while to be able to play politely for extended periods of time. 15 minutes is a long time for a puppy, indeed.

 

Set a timer for 10 minutes, and ease yourself out of the play mode when it goes off. Give her a chewie or stuffed kong that she can play with by herself and settle herself down. She needs to learn how to do this, and her young nervous system needs the break from stimulation.

 

Do you ever pet her, or massage her, when she's quiet? She might really enjoy that, and it's a great way to teach her how to relax and cuddle. It's nice for the humans, too. I love relaxing with my dog curled up with me.

 

You're doing very well with her, thanks for the continued updates and questions!

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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I agree with Jovi. Though I've had only older dogs, each dog didn't have a lot of 'play' time with humans before they came to me. One had been totally isolated from all humans except her a**hole owner for over a year before being surrendered to a rescue. Then she lived another year with a woman who was a bit overwhelmed with too many pets, so while Shonie got good food, shelter and vet care, she didn't have much interaction with people at all.

 

All my dogs had to learn how to play. And it took them a while to be able to play politely for extended periods of time. 15 minutes is a long time for a puppy, indeed.

 

Set a timer for 10 minutes, and ease yourself out of the play mode when it goes off. Give her a chewie or stuffed kong that she can play with by herself and settle herself down. She needs to learn how to do this, and her young nervous system needs the break from stimulation.

 

Do you ever pet her, or massage her, when she's quiet? She might really enjoy that, and it's a great way to teach her how to relax and cuddle. It's nice for the humans, too. I love relaxing with my dog curled up with me.

 

You're doing very well with her, thanks for the continued updates and questions!

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

 

Thanks for the encouragement and ideas Ruth, occasionally there is a chance to pet her while she is quiet, but that is usually for maybe a minute, most of the times when I can get her to cuddle next to me without biting she is constantly chewing on a nylabone or a ball while I am petting her, it is a constant non-stop chewing which is almost like a nervous habit, then after about 10-15 minutes she'll switch to biting me.

 

Today Xena was having an especially rowdy day, one time earlier today she started biting less than 5 minutes after getting in her pen with her, then later she started biting right away so I had to get right back out.

 

It seems like she'll have better more well behaved days, then have extra rowdy days, so I'll be glad when she finally gets past the biting altogether :-)

 

For the record - I'm not trying to sound like I'm complaining, I realized raising a puppy would be a labor of love and endurance while waiting for her to mature to better behavior, I guess it seems like a big contrast after having had an older dog who was calm and well behaved and who we could trust to roam the house freely, to now having a "baby" who is like an infant in their "terrible twos" so to speak :-)

 

It will be nice when she not only reaches the point where she is past biting on us, but also where we can trust her to roam around the house freely without getting into trouble, right now we have to keep her in an indoor x-pen during the day, in her crate at night, and on a leash outside (and she is still not used to the leash and can pull on it with a lot of energy).

 

I am glad to share the updates and ask questions. I really appreciate everyone who takes the time to share their experiences of what worked for them for various problems, and hopefully this and simular threads can be of help to others looking for help with simular problems.

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Not that Xena does not have rowdy times at other times, but it seems like every time when I first bring her in from bring outside she automatically gets in a rowdy mode and wants to bite or grab my clothes when I try to unconnect her leash from her collar. .....is that a common thing for puppies after being outside "in the wild" that it brings out some wildness ? :-)

 

On a positive note, she has the command "lay down" pretty good indoors, I have her lay down before she gets a treat and she responds quicker now than she used to !

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That is typical over stimulated behavior, she must love playing outside.

 

It can be frustrating as many times after about 5-10 minutes she will resort to biting my pants leg and jumping up trying to grab my shirt and I then have no choice but to bring her back inside and put her in her pen. (once she starts a biting mode I have not had any success refocusing her back on toys or normal playing and simply have to give her a time out in her pen or crate)

 

I will be so VERY glad when she finally gets past the biting phase, because in the meantime we are limited to spending very little time close to her because of her getting in the biting mode after about 5 - 10 minutes of her being close to us outside of her indoor x-pen or crate.

 

I'm so sad having to wait for the day when Xena can be free to roam the house outside of her pen and we can enjoy having her close to us without having to be on alert for the rowdy biting mode to start.

 

I feel like I am having to keep her isolated "in jail" (x-pen) most of the time for safeguard against the rowdy biting times and I simply want to be her pal and have good times together.

 

......I realize she is just being a normal puppy and the only thing we can do is to patiently wait for her to eventually outgrow getting in her biting modes, but I was just venting my sad frustration knowing that there are those of you who have (or now are) raising a puppy that understand what we are going thru waiting for the biting phase to pass :-)

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Hwo about putting her away before she gets in Bitty mode. You seem to know the triggers now, amount of time it will happen in, etc. Just read her body language and before she gets to that point put her away with a chew toy, bone, whatever and say good girl. Don't let her get so over arroused she gets the chance to practice the self rewarding behaviour of bitting in play.

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Have you tried tethering her to you? When she gets in biting mode you could try stepping on her leash to keep her in a down on the floor beside you until she can calm herself. Fair warning, if you try this: Some dogs just get more wound by the trapped feeling. I have one of each, one I could put in a down, step on the leash, and ignore for a while, and he would calm right down. The other one would just get into a frenzy, trying to escape, that's bad and can traumatize a puppy, so I just put him back into his crate.

 

The other thing you might want to consider is how fun is her pen? You walk a fine line between wanting them to have a fun place to be by themselves and rewarding bad behavior. When you put her away for getting in bite mode you want to make sure her pen is a quiet place to be, maybe even boring.

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Hwo about putting her away before she gets in Bitty mode. You seem to know the triggers now, amount of time it will happen in, etc. Just read her body language and before she gets to that point put her away with a chew toy, bone, whatever and say good girl. Don't let her get so over arroused she gets the chance to practice the self rewarding behaviour of bitting in play.

 

I tried getting out of her pen before her biting mode kicked in but she starts biting when I get up to leave.

 

I am starting to notice a slight bit more comprehension of the word no and don't bite as if she is trying to make an effort to behave longer.

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Have you tried tethering her to you? When she gets in biting mode you could try stepping on her leash to keep her in a down on the floor beside you until she can calm herself. Fair warning, if you try this: Some dogs just get more wound by the trapped feeling. I have one of each, one I could put in a down, step on the leash, and ignore for a while, and he would calm right down. The other one would just get into a frenzy, trying to escape, that's bad and can traumatize a puppy, so I just put him back into his crate.

 

The other thing you might want to consider is how fun is her pen? You walk a fine line between wanting them to have a fun place to be by themselves and rewarding bad behavior. When you put her away for getting in bite mode you want to make sure her pen is a quiet place to be, maybe even boring.

 

No, have not tried tethering to me, but have to have her on a leash when she is not in her pen, but she is the "get into a frenzy" type, when I had her outside earlier today and she started biting at my pants leg and jumping up to bite on my shirt I tried holding her still hoping she would calm down but she got into a frenzy trying VERY hard to get loose so I had to just bring her in and put her in her indoor pen. Perhaps the time outs for the really rowdy times needs to be in her crate for about 10 minutes then back to her pen ?

 

I tried something earlier that seemed to have a good effect, after her extreme rowdy/biting mode I put her in her pen and with a very disapproving tone told her I was very disappointed in her, (she laid down and looked sad) and then left her alone for a while. Later when I came to her pen and leaned over to greet her she gave me a LOT more kissies than usual and the next time I brought her back in from outside she did try a little rowdy-ness, but amazingly did not try to bite when I was unhooking her leash and that was a very noticable difference. Maybe that improved behavor might not "stick" right away, but it is encouraging.

 

Has anyone had success with quitely scolding with a disapproving tone ?

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Gideon is very sensitive to my tone, Micah is not. So much so that I have to be very careful how I speak to Micah, because it just destroys Gideon for me to sound angry at Micah.

 

How did Gideon react to you sounding that way at Micah ?

 

Did she think it is meant for her or just felt bad for Micah ?

 

It can be rough trying to figure what works best for your particular puppy because you want so bad to only be sweet and loving all the time, but you also want them to mature into acceptable behavior sooner than later so they can interact with the family without having to be almost constantly penned and crated.

 

To have to sound disappointed in her is something I would so much rather not do, but if it works like "tough love" to help them learn to behave sooner then perhaps it must be done, but I really don't like doing it.

 

Is that an acceptable method, or should it be avoided ?

 

I know some things takes time for puppies to grow out of, but if there is an ok way to help them learn not to bite sooner than they normally would I sure would like to know the best way :-)

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Both of mine do a little herding with my goats. If I tell them to down, Gideon just falls to the ground while Micah slows his pace a little. If I then yell "Micah, Down" Gideon tries to sink into the ground like "See, I'm trying to be even downer" Micah then finally lies down. I think Gideon thinks I'm reiterating my command to him and he has disappointed me. He just hates to disappoint me. Micah doesn't mind disappointing me at all.

 

I really think you have to look at your relationship with your dog from the dogs point of view. She does not see the world the same way you do. If you let her act towards you however she wants, you're not going to enjoy your relationship. You have to find ways to communicate to her how you want her to behave that she understands. Sometimes letting her know that you won't accept a behavior is necessary, but you have to let her know in a way that she comprehends. Your tone really is the best tool you have if she is sensitive to it. Just don't allow her to think you hold a grudge, if she hasn't learned that behavior, you don't want to teach it to her. :rolleyes:

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Both of mine do a little herding with my goats. If I tell them to down, Gideon just falls to the ground while Micah slows his pace a little. If I then yell "Micah, Down" Gideon tries to sink into the ground like "See, I'm trying to be even downer" Micah then finally lies down. I think Gideon thinks I'm reiterating my command to him and he has disappointed me. He just hates to disappoint me. Micah doesn't mind disappointing me at all.

 

I really think you have to look at your relationship with your dog from the dogs point of view. She does not see the world the same way you do. If you let her act towards you however she wants, you're not going to enjoy your relationship. You have to find ways to communicate to her how you want her to behave that she understands. Sometimes letting her know that you won't accept a behavior is necessary, but you have to let her know in a way that she comprehends. Your tone really is the best tool you have if she is sensitive to it. Just don't allow her to think you hold a grudge, if she hasn't learned that behavior, you don't want to teach it to her. :rolleyes:/>

 

Ok, so if a disapproving tone is working to help her behavior then it is ok then. I make sure to greet her positively after a time out so she realizes I don't hold a grudge.

 

what is "that behavior" I don't want to teach her ? ....holding a grudge ?

 

if so, she seems to be more loving again after a time out so that should not be a problem, at least I sure hope not :-/

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To have to sound disappointed in her is something I would so much rather not do,

Why would you rather not do this? All interaction with your puppy is communication. How is she to know that her behavior is unacceptable if you refuse to use a tone that communicates that information to her? What if she's about to chase a squirrel into the street and a car is coming? Do you think having a range of tones she understands might be helpful in such a situation? Puppies are like little children, and while I realize childrearing has changed, I still believe that the basic principal of setting limits, making those limits clear, and then enforcing them is a good way to raise a young animal. Communication/feedback regarding acceptable and unacceptable behavior needs to be consistent. Both praise and corrections need to be impeccably timed. How you take steps to do that is up to you, but the idea that you should never take a disfavoring tone or physically correct (this does not mean physical punishment, by the way) a puppy I think does the pup a disservice. A pup needs to understand that no means no. It needs to understand that commands are commands (i.e., complying is not optional). If you are wishy washy in your communication with your pup, then you can expect her to be slow to learn what you desire or to be wishy washy in her own responses to what you ask her to do.

 

I would also beware of attaching human emotions and behaviors, like holding grudges, to dogs. Humans are all too quick to attribute human motives/emotions/reactions to dogs when such motives simply don't exist. Most dogs don't do things to spite the human, for example, although people persist in believing that a dog will pee in the house "to get back at" the human and that a dog who is confronted over such behavior clearly shows guilt. The dog is simply reading your body language/tone and reacting to that. The dog doesn't think "Well I peed an hour ago and now the human is mad at me for doing that." The dog makes no connection to that past event and your present behavior. The dog simply learns that when dad comes home he often yells and so the dog reacts accordingly.

 

If your pup is truly a beagle cross, then she may be more "hard headed" than some other crosses, but almost all dogs are trainable, with consistent and clear messages from the human.

 

Regarding your question about multiple commands: If I'm teaching a pup to lie down, I use a food lure. I don't actually say "lie down" until the pup is already in the process of lying down (to get the treat). I don't use the command by itself until I am sure the pup understands what the command means. If the pup doesn't comply on the first command, then I would go back to the lure for the second command, to reinforce the concept. I would fade the lure as the pup became more reliable at giving the expected response on the first request. The same goes for a recall. I will put a pup on a long line so I can reel it in if it ignores a recall. A pup that readily comes when called is greeted by a party. A pup that ignores the first call of its name will get reeled in and praised once it's at my feet, then be allowed to range off again. But I will not call a pup over and over--as someone else noted, that's just teaching the pup to ignore you or that it doesn't actually have to comply until it's heard the command X number of times (this is a common mistake made when newbies take a youngster to stock--saying lie down a gazillion times when the dog never takes a hitch in its stride, and then wondering why the dog ignores the lie down). Again, clear rules, and consistent application.

 

J.

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What does she do if you just stop, stand like a tree, and ignore her until she stops? I mean, even if it takes 15 minutes?

 

I've tried standing still but never for 15 minutes, she has occasionally stopped before but would start right back when I moved again.

 

She tends to be even more rowdy outdoors, I was just now thinking - if a verbal command alone like "no" or "stop" does not work yet by itself, would it be an ok idea to use a squirt gun to squirt her with water at the same time I say no or stop ?

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I've tried standing still but never for 15 minutes, she has occasionally stopped before but would start right back when I moved again.

 

Then you stop and stand again, even if you can only take one step. There's a small danger of the self reward with that method, though.

 

Really, though, like J says I would certainly let my tone of voice communicate with her. If you say "No" in the same tone as you say everything else, then what is there to distinguish "no" from "go potty" or "good morning" or "hi" or anything else?

 

I think that over time you will find that your tone communicates even more to the dogs than the actual words themselves.

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Why would you rather not do this? All interaction with your puppy is communication. How is she to know that her behavior is unacceptable if you refuse to use a tone that communicates that information to her? What if she's about to chase a squirrel into the street and a car is coming? Do you think having a range of tones she understands might be helpful in such a situation? Puppies are like little children, and while I realize childrearing has changed, I still believe that the basic principal of setting limits, making those limits clear, and then enforcing them is a good way to raise a young animal. Communication/feedback regarding acceptable and unacceptable behavior needs to be consistent. Both praise and corrections need to be impeccably timed. How you take steps to do that is up to you, but the idea that you should never take a disfavoring tone or physically correct (this does not mean physical punishment, by the way) a puppy I think does the pup a disservice. A pup needs to understand that no means no. It needs to understand that commands are commands (i.e., complying is not optional). If you are wishy washy in your communication with your pup, then you can expect her to be slow to learn what you desire or to be wishy washy in her own responses to what you ask her to do.

 

I would also beware of attaching human emotions and behaviors, like holding grudges, to dogs. Humans are all too quick to attribute human motives/emotions/reactions to dogs when such motives simply don't exist. Most dogs don't do things to spite the human, for example, although people persist in believing that a dog will pee in the house "to get back at" the human and that a dog who is confronted over such behavior clearly shows guilt. The dog is simply reading your body language/tone and reacting to that. The dog doesn't think "Well I peed an hour ago and now the human is mad at me for doing that." The dog makes no connection to that past event and your present behavior. The dog simply learns that when dad comes home he often yells and so the dog reacts accordingly.

 

If your pup is truly a beagle cross, then she may be more "hard headed" than some other crosses, but almost all dogs are trainable, with consistent and clear messages from the human.

 

Regarding your question about multiple commands: If I'm teaching a pup to lie down, I use a food lure. I don't actually say "lie down" until the pup is already in the process of lying down (to get the treat). I don't use the command by itself until I am sure the pup understands what the command means. If the pup doesn't comply on the first command, then I would go back to the lure for the second command, to reinforce the concept. I would fade the lure as the pup became more reliable at giving the expected response on the first request. The same goes for a recall. I will put a pup on a long line so I can reel it in if it ignores a recall. A pup that readily comes when called is greeted by a party. A pup that ignores the first call of its name will get reeled in and praised once it's at my feet, then be allowed to range off again. But I will not call a pup over and over--as someone else noted, that's just teaching the pup to ignore you or that it doesn't actually have to comply until it's heard the command X number of times (this is a common mistake made when newbies take a youngster to stock--saying lie down a gazillion times when the dog never takes a hitch in its stride, and then wondering why the dog ignores the lie down). Again, clear rules, and consistent application.

 

J.

 

I have no problem using a disapproving tone and telling her I am disappointed in her if that is what is best, I guess I just wanted to be sure it was ok to do. (we would all like to just be positive with our dogs, but if it takes a disapproving tone to help them do better then that's what we must do)

 

She is now at about a 80-90% response to the "lay down" command when indoors, outdoors needs more effort.

 

She is starting to learn to come when I say "Xena, come" (outside) but that needs more work.

 

Thanks for all the good points, I appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and experience.

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(we would all like to just be positive with our dogs, but if it takes a disapproving tone to help them do better then that's what we must do)

 

I suppose it's personal preference, but why limit one's means of communication? Do you only ever talk to your wife in an upbeat chirpy voice? How much nuance can you create and what sorts of meanings can you convey just with subtle changes in tone of voice? How much more quickly are you able to tune out a monotone vs. a range of tones? Can you communicate nonverbally with other people, to show a range of emotions? Why wouldn't you do the same with your nonhuman companions? Limiting oneself to just one tone of voice is certainly severely limiting your ability to communicate clearly with another being, be it two legged or four legged.

 

J.

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One thing that keeps coming back to me - I had a dog that was a bc mix. While border collies in general tend to vary, I've found that with mixes sometimes you get interesting combinations that will provide you with unlimited opportunities to expand your training repertoire. Xena may well be one of these dogs. We suspected that my ex-husband's little dog had some beagle along with the border collie in the woodpile. She had all of the border collie energy without much of the biddability. It made for a very interesting combination. I was really surprised that we survived her. :blink:

 

I can't believe I'm about to say this (as an overanalyzer myself), but Gary... bless your heart... sometimes it's a good thing to think a little less and 'be' a little more. :) Be in the moment. Use your intuition. Worry less about the what to do and more about the relationship.

 

So what if she bites on your hands? Wear a pair of gloves. Chose a Xena shirt and a Xena pant and go figure it out in the moment. If what you're doing isn't working, come up with something different.

 

She's not going to grow into an adult dog that bites you all over, because you're not going to let that happen.

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I suppose it's personal preference, but why limit one's means of communication? Do you only ever talk to your wife in an upbeat chirpy voice? How much nuance can you create and what sorts of meanings can you convey just with subtle changes in tone of voice? How much more quickly are you able to tune out a monotone vs. a range of tones? Can you communicate nonverbally with other people, to show a range of emotions? Why wouldn't you do the same with your nonhuman companions? Limiting oneself to just one tone of voice is certainly severely limiting your ability to communicate clearly with another being, be it two legged or four legged.

 

J.

 

I agree with you and Carson, it is better to use different tones, I was just thinking that when my wife brought home a new chew toy for her I said with a quiet but excited tone "Xena - guess what mommy got for you ?" and Xena had a look of happy expectation !

 

I guess a normal but firm tone for everyday commands, a happy upbeat tone for praise, and a disapproving tone for expressing disappointment.

 

Any thoughts on using a squirt gun (especially outdoors) when a vocal command alone for no or stop does not seem to have any real effect by itself yet ?

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One thing that keeps coming back to me - I had a dog that was a bc mix. While border collies in general tend to vary, I've found that with mixes sometimes you get interesting combinations that will provide you with unlimited opportunities to expand your training repertoire. Xena may well be one of these dogs. We suspected that my ex-husband's little dog had some beagle along with the border collie in the woodpile. She had all of the border collie energy without much of the biddability. It made for a very interesting combination. I was really surprised that we survived her. :blink:/>/>/>

 

I can't believe I'm about to say this (as an overanalyzer myself), but Gary... bless your heart... sometimes it's a good thing to think a little less and 'be' a little more. :)/>/>/> Be in the moment. Use your intuition. Worry less about the what to do and more about the relationship.

 

So what if she bites on your hands? Wear a pair of gloves. Chose a Xena shirt and a Xena pant and go figure it out in the moment. If what you're doing isn't working, come up with something different.

 

She's not going to grow into an adult dog that bites you all over, because you're not going to let that happen.

 

I understand your point, I guess I ask so many questions because I do care about training her right, but I guess I do have to try to see what works and what doesn't.

 

Not that I don't also have to train her in the meantime, but what I am anticipating with hope is how someone said the biting phase usually stops soon after the last baby teeth, Xena is about 2 weeks shy of 4 months so maybe by 5 months or so I guess she'll be past her baby teeth ?

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I would agree with the tone of voice used can be a major help in working with some dogs. My husbands mastiff was a few eggs shy of a dozen when it came to training anything. Voice didn't work with him at all. He also loved water so a squirt gun or a hose had no effect except to get him excited. If you just turned away from him and ignored him,f that had the most effect on him. He always came on his recall for his treat. He loved cheese.

Where as with my BC mix Falon, you could just look at her angery and she would drop to the floor and cover her face with her paws. No I did not teach that to her, it was one of her quirks. A firm voice would get the same reaction from her as well. Now a squirt bottle would have her running to her kennel in no time flat, I only had to use it once.

Sage is a mix of the two. He can be quite sensitive to my tone of voice but water gets him super excited and he can't get enough of it. Think puppy in the shower if the door is ever left open when water is running.

I would say that if it is not cold where you are right now then I would try the squirt gun, one of the small ones you can keep in a jacket pocket. IF it works, great! If not then you can always try something else.

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I would agree with the tone of voice used can be a major help in working with some dogs. My husbands mastiff was a few eggs shy of a dozen when it came to training anything. Voice didn't work with him at all. He also loved water so a squirt gun or a hose had no effect except to get him excited. If you just turned away from him and ignored him,f that had the most effect on him. He always came on his recall for his treat. He loved cheese.

Where as with my BC mix Falon, you could just look at her angery and she would drop to the floor and cover her face with her paws. No I did not teach that to her, it was one of her quirks. A firm voice would get the same reaction from her as well. Now a squirt bottle would have her running to her kennel in no time flat, I only had to use it once.

Sage is a mix of the two. He can be quite sensitive to my tone of voice but water gets him super excited and he can't get enough of it. Think puppy in the shower if the door is ever left open when water is running.

I would say that if it is not cold where you are right now then I would try the squirt gun, one of the small ones you can keep in a jacket pocket. IF it works, great! If not then you can always try something else.

 

Thanks, I was just wanting to somehow help her to understand and obey "no" and "stop" as just saying the words did not seem to have much effect, the squirt gun idea is just being considered as a temporary thing to help her get to where she will obey "no" and "stop" with just saying the words themselves.

 

I know dogs want to please their masters, but isn't that something that develops more and more as they grow further out of puppy stage ? I would thing that a young puppy, like a very young kid, is more focused on their needs and wants till they start maturing more.

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