gcv-border Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 I am mulling this over in my mind, and would like to hear the thoughts of other agility enthusiasts -- The other night I spent some time watching quite a few European agility competitors on Youtube and noticed the consistent use of running contacts and blind crosses. I am familiar with pros and cons for both maneuvers. I, myself, have started to use running contacts (mainly because my dog had shoulder surgery, and when asked, the surgeon indicated that it would reduce shoulder stress to use RCs). I have not yet tried to train my dog for blind crosses because most people I talk to vehemently state that blind crosses are bad, bad, bad (even worse than RCs). In my limited experience, I have seen many more people here (in the USA) using RCs, so they are catching on. I have not yet seen more than one or two handlers throw a blind cross or two in. These handlers are upper echelon as they have been on a couple of World Teams. I am thinking that Blind crosses may become more common in the future despite the negative opinions about them as a handling maneuver. What do others think about RCs and blind crosses? And do you think the agility handlers in this country will begin to incorporate these maneuvers as the Europeans have done? Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 I was at a trial this past weekend and saw quite a few people using Blind Crosses. I can see where they would be useful. I might consider using them with my female. Not my male though. If he perceives that I might be in his way (anywhere in front of him) he gets ticked off. So I am the Rear Cross Queen. I won't even attempt a Front Cross unless he is in a tunnel or on an A Frame. Also, I see Running Contacts about 30% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Wait til you try to combine running contacts with blind crosses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelleybean Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 I use rear crosses all the time! My dog is so fast that I'm usually behind her, and I often just can't get in front to make a front cross. I LOVE the RC! Now, blind is another issue. Once again, I'm usually behind, so I BC is rarely appropriate for me. I'll use it when she's in the tunnel, but that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 I have started to train using blind crosses, we have not been trialling a lot recently but I have used them in safe places involving tunnels at a couple of trials. I am currently taking Daisy Peels online handling class and this weeks assignment was blind crosses. I thinks they are fun, and when running a very fast dog can be executed quicker than a front cross. The last exercise this week was challenging and after I was celebrating finally getting it right, I reviewed the video and realized that 3 times I had ran the sequence using front crosses.. . So I redid it using blinds. So what makes this fun is that I have been playing with a video anaylsis tool on my iPad and I got to watch the two sequences side by side... The blind cross version was just a little bit tighter on the turns as I was able to run a tighter line, which meant the blind cross won on time. Consequence I will be continuing to work on timing and training as I love going for the win, and my personal goals are to be able be competive in tournament classes. They are not for every turn but I can really see where it might give me another option that could be quicker and smoother and allow me to stay ahead. On the flip side I am not vaquely brave enough to train running contacts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 I love blind crosses and I use them as often as I can. Honestly, I don't see why they were ever anathema. I find them extremely natural. So much easier than rear crosses. I don't use them much with Dean because he is more often ahead of me, but I use them with Tessa as frequently, if not more, than fronts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 I'm in the process of "about the retrain the aframe to a running" in the planning stages right now for sick of fighting for a 2o2o he doesn't enjoy performing it, do I've got to listen to my dog, must be a shoulder thing. I'd retrain the DW too but I don't own one so that's my criteria of training, no personal equipment=no running. From what I've heard about the evolution if agilitythus far, all contact are going to need to be good solid runnings (with a full understanding of running, with solid verbal turn cues) to be competitive at all on the higher levels, kinda already that way. ... I don't know anything about Bxs though... Besides the "dint do them". It's really a trust thing though right? A Bx shouldn't be a huge deal if your dog understands the rules of agility and thy it's his job to take the obstacles in his line until you say otherwise. I personally think my dog would benefit and handle them well, and I going to ask someone to teach me them proper so I can have another trick in my bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillieNZ Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 What method did you RC people use to train them? I am going to train my Elsie to do RC over this summer while I have a lot of access to agility gear... I like blind crosses, but too scared to use them! Maybe I should do some reading up on them! LOVE this run! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQDN-ovZ6I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 Lisa Frick is "frickin'" amazing. That is all. We're not the big time here, as far as agility goes, but I'm seeing more RC and blind crosses at our local trials. I actually have a running a-frame and a sorta running dogwalk (don't ask, let me just say it's not easy to transition from a 2o-2o). I SHOULD do more blind crosses, since my dog isn't super fast and I have time. However, as I was taught in the early years never to do them, I haven't quite got the hang of it (or the nerve) just yet. I do think to be ultra competitive (at high levels), you need both in your toolbox. Or very quick release contacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I sometimes train with a national level competitor and her dogs have "stopped" contacts but you would barely notice they stopped when she is in a tournament class, her thoughts are that it is just a clearer criteria... I downloaded Daisy Peels blind cross video and found it very helpful. I do think the connection you have with your partner is really important.. Mine is always watching me and from the first time I tried a blind cross he got it... I could be wrong but I think it is because he is always aware of what I am doing, while with rear crosses which we have problems ( or lack of training) it does not come easily as he loses that connection with me. I really did not have to train Him tto understand a blind, the training has been getting my foot work etc right, while with rears we still sometimes get a spin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmbc Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 We have started to train blind crosses. I was at Ann Braue's summer camp this past summer and Karen Holick was teaching them. Silas Boogk teaches them too. He will be at Ann's this coming week and next. They use them only in very specific cases, where the dog has no other choice. They were not being used as a regular substitute for a front or rear. They can come in really handy, though. I have seen some courses recently where there was a sequence that a blind was the only good option for big dogs. As far as RC, I haven't started to teach them, working on a good stopped, however, lots of people are using Sylvia Trkman's method. She has free online stuff on how to train them, but also offers an online course. really, I think they make sense if you have aspirations of competing at higher levels, I don't think you will be competitive without them, But if you are just showing in local shows and having fun, you don't need them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I trained running contacts with Rex, and it was a blast! He picked it up very quickly, and after training the DW, I didn't have to train the frame - it comes for free. He's missed 1 frame in the past year of trialling, and that miss was EPIC. His DW is pretty consistent too. I decided to train running contacts because I've done the 2o/2o thing, and I thought it would be fun to try something else. Also, since Rex isn't blazing fast, I knew he would need to make up the time somewhere. Blind crosses - love 'em. As dsmbc stated, it is important to know when to do them, and it's also important to recognize when you're not going to get there in time. Here's a little compilation of Rex's frames from last weekend's trial. His most epic frame sadly wasn't recorded, but it was spectacular! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg9XILlh-yw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolph Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 Besides those mentioned above ... Can anyone suggest any good online/book resources for training blind crosses? Thanks, Tina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelleybean Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I was just inspired by this conversation to order a BC DVD. Don't know if it's any good, but I ordered "Adding Blind Crosses to you Handling System" by Davis. We'll see! Also, now I'm rethinking RC as well. I've wanted to learn them, but my trainer thinks I'd be better off with a good 2o2off. Right now, Asa will stop in class, then fly off in competition. (We compete AKC at the Exc. level). I've found some online courses that would work for me. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 For techniques to train RCs: I originally was taught a 2O2O, then used Sylvia Trkman's technique to try and train RCs. I did not have much success, but part of that was probably me, part of it was the re-training and part of it was my dog's nature to always, always jump the bottom few feet - whether it is stairs or a contact zone. Aside: My personal theory is that there are dogs that naturally will jump the bottom stairs and those that will always catch and step on the last one or two steps - even though both dogs may be fast and high-drive. The dogs that, by nature, will NOT jump the bottom few feet will be easier to teach with the Trkman method (no scientific data for that, just my theory). I also think that re-training is not as easy with the Trkman method since the criteria is a little less defined. I then moved to the Rachel Sanders method (not done yet), but it seems to be working better. I have also heard that Daisy Peel teaches a RC. From what I have seen, it is similar to Trkman's method, but Kristi would know better since she trained her RC with Daisy. Blind Crosses: I do have trouble trying to get in front of my speedy dog (I am chronologically challenged ) and so have worked on the rear cross a lot. BUT, if I can ever get in front of my dog and have a situation where a Bx would work well, I would like it in my tool box - rather than having to force a front cross since sometimes a Fx feels very forced to me and really breaks up the natural flow of running. Here is a link to a Youtube video where Lisa Frick/Hoss and Sylvia Trkman/Bu are shown on the same course. It is really cool because it has been edited so that both runs are shown on the screen at the same time and you can watch and compare handler and dog step-by-step. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W9P5JkPRlA I hope this link works. Enjoy, Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 i wanted to share this video i put together, i edited the clips so my dog was crossing the plane of the first jump at the same time, as you would with electronic timers. The clip with the front crosses was not planned but my muscle memory taking over when ran the sequence once i got the blins sorted out is felt really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 i wanted to share this video i put together, i edited the clips so my dog was crossing the plane of the first jump at the same time, as you would with electronic timers. The clip with the front crosses was not planned but my muscle memory taking over when ran the sequence once i got the blins sorted out is felt really good. Thank you for posting your video. It was cool to see the same sequence run with Fxs and Bxs. To me, it seemed like the first place where the Fx and Bx were used, the flow and handler movement seemed similar. Where I noticed the larger difference was the second situation where the Bx seemed to flow smoother (handler movement) and you were also faster along the line than when you used the Fx. Thanks for the learning opportunity, Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildo Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 [EDIT]- opps. Kind of reviving an old thread. I read that last post as Dec 5, not Nov 5. Sorry... Nice job alligande on that blind cross for the serp! That's the fourth sequence in a recent "blind cross drills" post from Daisy Peel, yes? I also tried all four sequences and interestingly, that fourth one I was not able to get the Bx in. The others I was more/less successful. To the OP, the blind cross was normal part of agility many years ago. For whatever reason, it started to lose favor. I've never seen a blog or anything on the history of the Bx, but I really suspect that the Bx probably started to lose favor when Greg Derrett handlers started winning a lot. I think I've read that the Bx was readily used in the 80's and early 90's, but then came Susan Garrett who started winning a lot in the late 90's and early 2000's. I understand that's about the time that the Bx started going the way of the buffalo. Interestingly, the Bx is definitely making a comeback, and wouldn't you know it- big name agility winners in recent years are using them. I went the the USDAA Nationals in 2011 (as a spectator) and saw PLENTY of blind crosses. What's funny: Susan Garrett just posted a video on youtube a couple days ago showing Swagger's progress and there are a few blinds in there even from her! I think it's natural that people will emulate what they see winning. For that reason, I think (with no way to research this that I can think of) that the blind cross will be used when high level agility names are winning with it, and it will fade when high level agility names are against it. Finally- as to training material, I recently picked up Daisy Peel's DVD called something like "Look Back" about training the blind cross. I found it thorough enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 [EDIT]- opps. Kind of reviving an old thread. I read that last post as Dec 5, not Nov 5. Sorry... To the OP, the blind cross was normal part of agility many years ago. For whatever reason, it started to lose favor. I've never seen a blog or anything on the history of the Bx, but I really suspect that the Bx probably started to lose favor when Greg Derrett handlers started winning a lot. I think I've read that the Bx was readily used in the 80's and early 90's, but then came Susan Garrett who started winning a lot in the late 90's and early 2000's. I understand that's about the time that the Bx started going the way of the buffalo. Interestingly, the Bx is definitely making a comeback, and wouldn't you know it- big name agility winners in recent years are using them. I went the the USDAA Nationals in 2011 (as a spectator) and saw PLENTY of blind crosses. What's funny: Susan Garrett just posted a video on youtube a couple days ago showing Swagger's progress and there are a few blinds in there even from her! I think it's natural that people will emulate what they see winning. For that reason, I think (with no way to research this that I can think of) that the blind cross will be used when high level agility names are winning with it, and it will fade when high level agility names are against it. Finally- as to training material, I recently picked up Daisy Peel's DVD called something like "Look Back" about training the blind cross. I found it thorough enough... From the OP: I agree with your assessment. I have not been doing agility long enough (only 3-4 years) to know what came before the Derrett/Garrett training influence, but I do know a little about their 'system' because my agility instructor uses and teaches their handling technique. D/G teach the Fx rather than the Bx because they preach(ed) that you should always try to keep your eye on your dog (at least that is the way I understand it). With a Bx, there is that second or split second where you have to take your eyes off the dog and the dog's path and that is when you get in trouble. (i.e. the dog goes to the wrong side) Although I am not an expert, nor have I extensively studied videos on the Bx move, the failed Bxs I have seen in person and on video are, IMO, due to either a late signal to the dog or an unclear signal, and possibly, lack of training for the Bx (but I can't tell lack of training from watching). If you watch many of the top European handlers run (Lisa Frick and Sylvia Trkman come to mind), their signals for Bxs are very clear and are early enough that the dog doesn't have to guess which way to go. It is normal for people to emulate consistently winning handling skills. Nothing wrong with that. With regard to Susan Garrett using some Bxs - she has also started training RCs. For many years, she has preached against them because she wanted >95% consistency, and she felt that level of consistency was not achievable with RCs. Now she has trained Swagger for RCs, but I have not heard if his RCs (or other dogs trained using the same technique) are living up to her previously stated standard of consistency. I actually do not use any handling system. I just try and use whatever works for me. I am going to a different agility instructor now, and she is more open to different handling techniques. It all depends on the dog and handler and what works the best for that team -- some dogs do not like Rxs, some do not like lateral distance, etc. It is best that one trains their dog to handle the different situations, but sometimes those quirks just can't be worked through. Agility is a fascinating sport! Much harder than it looks. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 [EDIT]- opps. Kind of reviving an old thread. I read that last post as Dec 5, not Nov 5. Sorry... Nice job alligande on that blind cross for the serp! That's the fourth sequence in a recent "blind cross drills" post from Daisy Peel, yes? I also tried all four sequences and interestingly, that fourth one I was not able to get the Bx in. The others I was more/less successful. It was from that session I can't remember which sequence. I find my partner reads blinds very easily, I think the key is making eye contact quickly, realistically I think most people lose contact during a front as they are trying to get their foot work right. But we did put a lot of time in his foundation training about him coming to the correct side, ironically i think the training i used to stop him crossing behind me, is what has helped him understand a blind. What I am really learning is that it is a tool, and you have to use the right one. Daisy had a sequence during week 8 of her last class which I struggled with, the only option for me was a rear... I could not get there for a front, a blind would give me the wrong angle, that left a rear as the only choice and then it was not pretty just functional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnhill Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 I use Rear Crosses all the time with my two current dogs. They work great for nice tight turns, when queued correctly. I always looked at blind crosses as more of a small dog tool. Then one weekend I was watching some local competitiors running fast large dogs use blind crosses I decided to start using them. I have to say that my dog has picked up on them pretty fast. I was worried at first about breaking eye contact with my dog, but after a few tries she has them down nicely. They are a great tool to have in your toolbox! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I really liked this http://allstaragility.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/running-with-blinds-or-blindly-running/ article on bxs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnhill Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Very nice article! Thanks for the link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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