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Start Line Stay - how to teach it so it stays?


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Slingshot - handler stands at some distance from the first obstacle next to the dog. Dog is sent to take it. Once the dog commits to the jump, the handler moves out onto the course in the direction he or she needs to be going. The initial distance that the team has from the jump is lateral distance so you and the dog are still starting behind the start line.

 

It gives the team a running start, but allows the handler to gain some momentum so the dog does not end up way out ahead on the start. The end result is that the start is more like running the course in medias res.

 

It is incredibly fun once the dog gets the idea of flying out to take the first piece of equipment.

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Slingshot - handler stands at some distance from the first obstacle next to the dog. Dog is sent to take it. Once the dog commits to the jump, the handler moves out onto the course in the direction he or she needs to be going. The initial distance that the team has from the jump is lateral distance so you and the dog are still starting behind the start line.

 

It gives the team a running start, but allows the handler to gain some momentum so the dog does not end up way out ahead on the start. The end result is that the start is more like running the course in medias res.

 

It is incredibly fun once the dog gets the idea of flying out to take the first piece of equipment.

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

We don't have names for everything here and if we ever advise any of our members to try that it would be as a baby step towards getting a proper start line wait. My first prober agility dog was one that never got beyond that first step with me, although he would do a 10 min out of sight stay in obedience.

 

Worse than accepting that you have no wait is to try one and the dog breaking it.

 

My daughter was judging yesterday and had bottom and top grade classes. She decided to impress on the beginners that they would do far better in the long run if they had a wait, and also to test the waits of the top grade handlers (which shouldn't be necessary but sometimes is). Because of the course designs those with a wait did fine, those without, whether they could run or not, had real problems.

 

She did the beginners a favour really. Many people can often get away without a solid lead out in the lower grades here but it get increasingly harder further up the ladder and you need experience, alternative strategies and handler speed if you are going to have any chance at all. No point in lulling the beginners into a false sense of security.

 

Judges here can set whatever course they want and it doesn't have to have to be pre-approved by anyone so it helps if a handler has as many tools as possible in their box. I'm willing to bet that those handlers who have to manage without a wait wish they had the option.

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others have said this, but you don't need a startline stay. The first obstacle is just another obstacle that you have to figure out how to handle. besides, if you watch, many handlers negate any benefit of a leading out by waiting where they led out to for the dog to catch up.

 

With that said, it is really up to you how much you want a startline stay and how much time you want to put into training one. Your dog can learn one for sure.

 

Turn training it into a game, so you both have fun! In your class maybe you can set it up to have the other handlers tug with their dogs all around your dog while in a sit/stay - or something like that to get the arousal up. there are also tricks your instructor can do to help you simulate ring nerves.

 

Find some fun matches and practice start lines too.

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others have said this, but you don't need a startline stay. The first obstacle is just another obstacle that you have to figure out how to handle.{/quote]

 

And if the next obstacle is a long way from the first with several possible traps in between and your dog is not the sort that will just run round with you?

 

Or maybe you don't tend to meet that sort of course.

 

It seemed to me when I started out that every other course consisted of 3-4 jumps in a straight line with a box at the end with 3 choices for the dog. Not easy without a wait if you aren't a sprinter. I used to hope for a course that needed him to turn right in the box because that's what he would do if I was floundering along in his wake.

 

 

besides, if you watch, many handlers negate any benefit of a leading out by waiting where they led out to for the dog to catch up.

 

Not really. The benefit of a lead out is to get to the place where you need to handle the dog round a tricky bit, not simply to be ahead of it. It's not a race; there will be times when you need to be close and times you can send the dog on so you can take a short cut to get to the next tricky bit.

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others have said this, but you don't need a startline stay. The first obstacle is just another obstacle that you have to figure out how to handle. besides, if you watch, many handlers negate any benefit of a leading out by waiting where they led out to for the dog to catch up.

 

 

Also, I have seen World War III waged over start lines more than anything, even contacts (I think because once a contact is blow, that is over and done with, no matter what happens next), and I think that can be a really cruddy way to start off a run - as much from the handler's point of view as the dog's, especially when it borders on nasty.

 

Personally, I flatly refuse to make anything so much of an issue that it hinders my ability to enjoy my dog in the ring. If we don't have a start line, so be it. I will start with the dog, or slingshot. Another skill has come up weak, we'll wing it and take what comes, or do something different.

 

I was this way with my first Agility dog, but now that I have lost her and the reality that our time with these dogs is very limited is very much with me, I really don't sweat this kind of stuff even more. If I could have Maddie back for one more run, do you think I would really care if I had to start with her, that she always ran velcro, that I had to babysit her contacts and weaves, or that she would lay down at the end of the run, trying to refuse to budge off the course as I put her leash on? Heck no! I'd be savoring every step. I remember that every time I run Dean or Tessa and I've become a far better handler for it.

 

I'm not saying that I let poor skills remain poor skills. But when there is an issue, I make a mental note of it and take it to training. Once we are on the course, I see it as testing the skills that we've brought that day. If I know a skill is weak, I take that into account in my planning and execution of the run.

 

And I find it works well.

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I agree with having as many tools as possible. You never know when you might need them, plus it is just fun to train another technique.<br /><br />Just another word about the slingshot start: (and FWIW, these are only my views based on seeing it used in competition. I have never been instructed on the technique) I feel it is best used when the opening sequence bends to either the left or right. For example: You can set up the dog to the right of the jump and start them on the curve (and correct lead) to where you are running an obstacle or 2 further on. (Does that make sense?) In this manner, it is a bit like a lead-out since you gain a couple of obstacles.<br /><br />I think the second advantage is, if you have a good slingshot technique, you can set up your dog a distance away from the first obstacle, thus the dog is moving with speed over the first jump - possibly resulting in saving that extra 0.1 or 0.2 seconds.<br /><br />JMO.

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I think it also depends on your personal goals with agility and your current partner. Agility is the only dog sport I participate and the only thing I train other than basic manners, and I have a very talented dog. So for me it is about being the best we can be, (he is the much more talented part of the team) while every run is fun, especially for the last year where we have not trialled or trained on full courses often, I still sacrifice runs to training as my partner is only 4 and we still have a long career ahead of him. When I have sacrificed a run we still celebrate at the end of the run, we always celebrate as even over two jumps he is fun to play with.

Especially in NADAC I have had far to many people tell me we "had" contacts or we "had" a stay but over the years we lost it. If you don't want a start line stay or it does not work for a particular dog that is fine, but if you want one then the only place I believe you can proof one is in a trial environment, the ambiance is just different.

Not every course needs a start line, some a couple of feet is all that is needed I have started plenty of courses where being able to be lateral to your dog was more important then being ahead, and some like snooker the only way you are going to get high points is with a lead out.

it was also pointed out that some handlers don't take advantage of theirs and wait for the dog to catch up... Been there and got the ribbon for that one, I have trained with a great trainer and in my head I hear her saying run Karen run, don't look at the pretty dog, you can admire him any time!

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My Wick dog lost her startline stay about 4 years ago. This makes some courses a little more challenging, but she still is able to compete on Masters courses with success. You just need to adjust your strategy. I certainly never considered quitting agility with her b/c she doesn't stay anymore. And now, at 13, she has almost no contact behaviour (aside from leaping LOL). You know what? She's still a riot to run and I'm grateful every time I go to the line with her that we're still running together more than 11 years after we first went to the line together. :D

 

Re: slingshot starts, go to the 0:34 second mark of this video to see a slingshot. It involves using some lateral distance, and as others have said, works best when the course curves left or right at the start. If the course starts off straight, then I just have to RUN!!!!

 

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I still sacrifice runs to training as my partner is only 4 and we still have a long career ahead of him. When I have sacrificed a run we still celebrate at the end of the run, we always celebrate as even over two jumps he is fun to play with.

Especially in NADAC I have had far to many people tell me we "had" contacts or we "had" a stay but over the years we lost it. If you don't want a start line stay or it does not work for a particular dog that is fine, but if you want one then the only place I believe you can proof one is in a trial environment, the ambiance is just different.

 

I so agree with that, but there does come a point in a dog's career as Kristi has said when it doesn't really matter much any more. However, at nearly 8 Kye isn't allowed to relax criteria at all.

 

Our Hazel suffered from my lack of training experience and never had a reliable dog walk but after the age of around 11 we didn't worry about it at all as long as she was fun to run and enjoyed it. She's just retired at 13 because of failing eyesight.

 

(Sorry about the messed up reply to dsmbc a few posts back. My computer won't let me fix it.)

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I so agree with that, but there does come a point in a dog's career as Kristi has said when it doesn't really matter much any more. However, at nearly 8 Kye isn't allowed to relax criteria at all.

 

Our Hazel suffered from my lack of training experience and never had a reliable dog walk but after the age of around 11 we didn't worry about it at all as long as she was fun to run and enjoyed it. She's just retired at 13 because of failing eyesight.

 

(Sorry about the messed up reply to dsmbc a few posts back. My computer won't let me fix it.)

No disagreements there, when I realized that Brody was never going to set the agility world on fire, or even warm up it a little, we just had fun, if he did not want to do something it did not matter, and I know I will feel the same way if Rievaulx is still able to play in double digits, it will make me happy just to be able to have fun with him. I know Kye is still competive so I can see why his criteria has to be maintained.

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I'm glad for the discussion. (Especially the folks who say agility can be done without the startline stay, which we won't have). I have been using something like the "sling-shot" for the last trial and the one this weekend, my teacher just didn't give it a name. I talked to a lady at the trail we competed in down in TN who had a very good agility dog (now retired) that didn't have a startline stay. That relieved me quite a bit also. I have worked very hard with Layla, she is my first dog as an adult and I didn't get her until I was 46 and she was 8 weeks old, and of course my first agility dog. At one trial I had an especially difficult time and someone said I shouldn't have gotten "a dog like that" as my first dog. But I got agility for the dog rather than the dog for agility; but now I'm hooked! That's just background.

 

I am very proud of Layla, we finished our Open JWW title and got a Q in Excellent JWW. We got 2 Qs in Open Standard also. The stay really wasn't an issue (the dreaded teeter-totter was, but we can work on that more with cheese). My poor handling in the middle of the course kept us from getting another Excellent JWW. Layla followed me as I over handled and pulled her right off the next jump, LOL, sorry girl.

 

The stay is kind of an issue at NADAC trials at times, but there's not much I can do about it except to start way back and use lateral distance. The positive thing we have is lateral distance. She has been very responsive to training that. Here's a youtube of our Open JWW run, she pulled out of the weaves because of me, I paused in my forward motion and she popped out, not her fault, good enough for the title though. I wish I had been able to get someone to record our Excellent JWW Q, that was a very nice run, but my buddies were waiting to run in the other ring at the time.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Tg5ATMTQQkA

 

It's not brilliance, but we have improved a lot. Old woman with fast dog, but I'm very proud of her. I am going to continue to work on strategies that do not involve at startline stay, that would be lots more fun for us than my blowing trials until I quit agility altogether. (We are also totally evil and have running contacts, I do everything wrong, go big or go home, as they say).

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The stay is kind of an issue at NADAC trials at times, but there's not much I can do about it except to start way back and use lateral distance.

 

 

Old woman with fast dog,.

Two things... We struggle with NADAC even with our solid start line as the jumps are so spread out you can never really stay ahead.. If you run a fast dog in that venue you need distance and handling from behind, that start line only helps for the first couple of jumps :)

 

You are not even close to old... In my part of the country is an amazing handler who runs (no distance handling) a really fast and awesome border collie and they can place in USDAA tournaments even at a national level and she is over 70. I know loads of great handlers in their 50s and 60s...

 

I can understand your reluctance to not leave a course in AKC but why not take advantage of NADACs training in the ring, everyone is always supportive of that decision, and you still get to play agility, I usually run the whole (or rest of it) after we have repeated a contact or start, and my partner still has fun and we celebrate, I have never really viewed it as blowing a run but as banking skills for the future.

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Very nice run. Layla is a really good dog. You may have already thought about this, but you can train slowing/stopping your forward motion when your dog is weaving and she should continue to weave regardless of your motion. Just do it incrementally like adding lateral distance. I went through a period this summer when I tried to throw everything I could think of at my dog while he was weaving - lateral distance, stopping, running in reverse, having him run through my legs while I stood in the middle of the weaves, sitting in a chair, to name several. It doesn't guarantee 100% success at a trial but it does free you up not to have to worry about performing precisely what your dog expects and pulling her out of the weaves.

 

And I agree, you are NOT too old. I was several years older than you when I got my now 6 YO Border Collie. We struggle, but I keep it fun and he loves the game. I feel that he has pushed me to learn how to be a better handler - and I still have a long way to go. And I also have trained running contacts - he gets the running part, but not the contact. Oh well.

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Very nice run. Layla is a really good dog. You may have already thought about this, but you can train slowing/stopping your forward motion when your dog is weaving and she should continue to weave regardless of your motion. Just do it incrementally like adding lateral distance. I

 

Really good idea! I will DEFINITELY work on that one. That is certainly something we can do! Thanks!

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I can understand your reluctance to not leave a course in AKC but why not take advantage of NADACs training in the ring, everyone is always supportive of that decision, and you still get to play agility, I usually run the whole (or rest of it) after we have repeated a contact or start, and my partner still has fun and we celebrate, I have never really viewed it as blowing a run but as banking skills for the future.

 

I am sure people would be quite supportive. If I did feel I had to do something like blow runs, it would be at a NADAC trial and I just wouldn't count on doing anything but stay all day. I don't personally want to do that though, Layla might be fine with it but I am not sure it's worth it to me, I might have to blow God only knows how many trials worth of runs and still have the same dog with no change. I have seen a lady do this with a Sheltie for the same length of time as I've run Layla, she does everything the proper way and blows the run if the dog breaks her stay, but the dog still isn't much better than Layla at a stay and they don't seem to get much flow in their runs at trials after all that beginning frustration. I think I might end up looking at Layla as the stubborn dog making me blow another run rather than my partner in a fun activity, when I felt I had to find a way to have a stay I really did look at her as impossible to run and me a total failure at training her. If I actually thought this would work in say one NADAC trial's worth of trashed runs, I would probably try it, but I think it would end up being many, many, many trial's worth with her. She becomes a different dog at trials, it has taken a long time for her to be able to listen and follow me. If I have to have a stay I could always switch to Rally, she would probably do one in that activity (just joking, I might add Rally O but not give up agility, we love it).

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Nice work at a distance but your start demonstrates why it's a risky strategy believing that you can always manage without a wait. If the jumps had been a couple of feet closer together you would have been eliminated at the point where your dog turned the wrong way and headed for the wrong jump. Directional commands could have got you out of that particular fix but I'm guessing you won't always meet jumps so widely spaced?

 

I appreciate that you probably weren't worried about the wasted time since you can Q regardless of placing.

 

Most people with their first agility dog are just happy if their dog can perform reasonably well. Equally, most people who train subsequent dogs will up their criteria and consistency because they train for the level they intend to be at, not where they are now.

 

Like Karen, I don't see "blowing a run" deliberately as a negative thing. Every handler who allows a dog to break a wait or blow a contact and just carries on is blowing runs for the future, and those runs may be ones that really matter.

 

Imagine getting to Crufts and meeting this course without a wait (Large dogs towards the end) -

 

 

That flat tunnel is so inviting, especially for a long striding dog. If you race the dog you risk pushing it forward to the tunnel. If you stay back and rely on directional cues you aren't in the right place for the next part of the course and the further away you are the less chance you have to get really tight turns.

 

If the only way you can manage to relax and enjoy running your dog is to give up on the idea of a wait that's fine, but you'll have to accept that sometimes you may come unstuck. If you reckon that those occasions will be far outweighed by the sorts of courses where you will probably get away without a wait then just go with the flow and accept whatever may happen.

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I am sure people would be quite supportive. If I did feel I had to do something like blow runs, it would be at a NADAC trial and I just wouldn't count on doing anything but stay all day. I don't personally want to do that though, Layla might be fine with it but I am not sure it's worth it to me, I might have to blow God only knows how many trials worth of runs and still have the same dog with no change. I have seen a lady do this with a Sheltie for the same length of time as I've run Layla, she does everything the proper way and blows the run if the dog breaks her stay, but the dog still isn't much better than Layla at a stay and they don't seem to get much flow in their runs at trials after all that beginning frustration. I think I might end up looking at Layla as the stubborn dog making me blow another run rather than my partner in a fun activity, when I felt I had to find a way to have a stay I really did look at her as impossible to run and me a total failure at training her. If I actually thought this would work in say one NADAC trial's worth of trashed runs, I would probably try it, but I think it would end up being many, many, many trial's worth with her. She becomes a different dog at trials, it has taken a long time for her to be able to listen and follow me. If I have to have a stay I could always switch to Rally, she would probably do one in that activity (just joking, I might add Rally O but not give up agility, we love it).

 

All of our dogs are different dogs at trials. The atmosphere of a trial can't really be duplicated.

 

If you 've seen someone who's been removing their dogs for breaking a startline for years I'd say either they are not being consistent or they are a slow learner. You have to give all training a chance, but if it goes on for that long it obviously isn't working and you should really sit down and examine whether you've been 100% consistent and if your dog really understands what you're asking for.

 

You cannot go to certain trials and "blow" your runs and then go to others and let the behavior slid. It won't work and wouldn't be fair to your dog. Dogs only understand consistency.

 

I personally think that having a start line stay is much more crucial in venues that have tight, twisty courses. It's really pretty easy to not have a start line stay in NADAC because the courses themselves encourage distance.

 

Gina

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Agree about taking a dog out of the ring for years with no improvement. That is not an effective consequence or the dog is just as happy (maybe happier) leaving as staying. The slow learner there is the handler who does the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

 

I think we all train our second dogs very, very differently because we (hopefully) know so much more and understand so much better the reasons for having strong foundation skills. But in the meantime, we can still have a blast and varying degrees of success with our first dogs.

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I appologize, I am beginning to believe that "startline stay" is more of a religious practice than an agility technique. I've not been doing agility long and I must appologize for despising the ground "startline stay" walks on; though I still do.

 

Sorry that me and my shelter dog stink so bad (actually she could use a bath).

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What? Who said you stink? Who is saying you should quit or that you must learn a start line stay? Several of us have said it is a good tool to have and one we prefer to train. I didn't use a start line stay with my first dog because it seemed to demotivate him and he often ran slower or knocked bars as a consequence. He was still my favorite agility dog (my favorite dog, ever, actually).

 

Set your own goals. It is up to you whether you stay in the sport or not, but if you do, have fun with it, for goodness sakes. A game with your dog shouldn't be the cause of angst.

 

Enjoy your dog and cherish your time with her. That is what matters most.

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I think there's a danger in taking agility too terribly seriously. I haven't been in it long either but have seen my fair share of blood sweat and tears (and also extreme frustration). Remember, they're just dogs and it is just a game.

 

I don't start line stay my younger dog. She's spooky and I fight that battle in itself. She worries a lot in trials or runs where other dogs are and then rocks at class. Start lines worry her more so we drop and run. My other dog is old and I started her as an old dog for fun. She's actually really good and holds a stay like a champ. She's FAST too for an old dog. I like having the start line with her for sure but it's not worth stressing my other dog out over and ruining the game for her.

 

I don't know... you pick and choose your battles. There's also no reason to compare yourself to other handlers imo. You have your dogs and your own journey. Everyone has their own battles to fight.

 

My trainer also doesn't fight over a startline with one of her dogs. Silvia Trkman doesn't startline stay her pyrshep.

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I appologize, I am beginning to believe that "startline stay" is more of a religious practice than an agility technique. I've not been doing agility long and I must appologize for despising the ground "startline stay" walks on; though I still do.

 

Sorry that me and my shelter dog stink so bad (actually she could use a bath).

Why in the world would you think any of that, you asked for opinions on start lines and so many of us took the time to describe how and why we use them, if you don't want to use one or it does not suit your dog that's up to you. As a number of us have said we have had dogs that it does not work for, and you just make it work for that dog. If you had asked for advice on training contacts/weaves/jumping we would have opinions on that to.....

 

Brody and I at times struggled to get round a course, amazingly we made it to elite in NADAC before he got sick, but I had so much fun with that little dog and met so many people as he made people including me laugh on and of the course. Running Rievaulx is very different and looks much more serious, I am focused, driven and concentrating really hard to get round the course with no mistakes, it's a rush, not a giggle like it was Brody but the party at the end is way bigger..... It was what I thought agility would be, actually its more of a high than I thought possible but it's not for everyone plenty of people would prefer Brody as a partner.

 

In NADAC distance is the religion and I don't train distance, I like to run with my dog, it's what makes it fun for me so at NADAC trials we struggle, I only go as its reasonably local and like the people, so I take our struggles with a grain a salt. In USDAA it's about speed and accurate handling, and we do well there.

 

There are so many styles of agility you take what works for you, you pick what works for your team. There are handlers who I really admire, but I don't want to play the game like them, you pick the style that works for you, you pick the skills that work for you, and enjoy your time with your dog.

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I agree with what so many have said. I'm very lucky that the first dog I did agility with was a cocker. She had a great start line stay and was a Velcro dog. We could do a little distance but not much. At that time we did a lot of obedience training and that's what gave her such a good stay. She was shown in 4-h for 8 years.

I now have a BC who is handler impaired. LOL She also has a great stay, but she is a distance dog. We just competed in out 3rd trial and our first Fast class. Yes it's AKC. We placed first with 76 out of a possible 80. This is the first time at a trial that we didn't knock any bars.

A friend has a BC that is obsessed with the teeter. She will bite, spin go off course just to do the it even jump off spin and put her front feet back on. She has pulled her several times in the middle of a run because of this. This last time she did get her to bypass it. So she blew it because of not doing all obstacle's. That is her choice as if you can't listen then the fun stops. Me I feel like I paid and I'm going to finish the class even when we screw up. Now I have quite practice if she refused to listen. Same concept play ends. But not at a trial but I have seen a lot who do.

What gets me is the amount of people who take out a bad run on the dog. Not physically but no praise at all. Someone who does not do agility noticed this also and commented on it. I did do this at her first trial an when I watched the video I felt like such an ass. She did try and she loves it so we screwed up it was still fun. She gets the same amount of praise regardless of whether we qualify or not.

Do what is fun for you and your dog period.

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I appologize, I am beginning to believe that "startline stay" is more of a religious practice than an agility technique. I've not been doing agility long and I must appologize for despising the ground "startline stay" walks on; though I still do.

 

Sorry that me and my shelter dog stink so bad (actually she could use a bath).

 

I don't know where responses you received here would leave you to this reaction, I must have missed something. I believe everyone here is trying to say that start line stays can be useful in some instances. Others not so much. But regardless, many people have run dogs successfully without having them, but there will be some courses that are more challenging then if you had a start line stay. Challenges are good, right? That's one of the best parts about agility, having the skills and then being presented with a difficult path to try to execute those skills on.

 

My two guys have start line stays, but I don't always use them, I actually sling shot my younger guy a fair amount of the time b/c I tend to be flat footed on the start line and he catches up more quickly then if I sling shot and get going immediately. This is my fault, I tend to stare at the cute little guy coming my way :)

 

Having a start line just gives you one more skill to pull out of your hat, if you don't have it, then don't worry about it.

 

It's like directionals, some people have and use verbal directions. Others don't. Some people never try to train verbal directionals, if not, no big deal. They are going to handle a course differently then someone who does use them. Just like using a start line stay or not is going to cause people to handle courses differently, not incorrectly, but differently.

 

 

Me I feel like I paid and I'm going to finish the class even when we screw up. Now I have quite practice if she refused to listen. Same concept play ends. But not at a trial but I have seen a lot who do.

 

 

Something to consider with this. Dogs like consistency; black and white. Do you think it's fair to your dog that they have different expectations in one environment versus another for the same behavior?

 

Of course there are small things we are going to overlook in the trial environment, we may not even notice they happened. But if it's something you think is worth pulling your dog out for in practice, I think it might be worth considering that you may want to follow through in the trial environment too. Or just let them get away with it in practice also.

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I appologize, I am beginning to believe that "startline stay" is more of a religious practice than an agility technique. I've not been doing agility long and I must appologize for despising the ground "startline stay" walks on; though I still do.

 

Sorry that me and my shelter dog stink so bad (actually she could use a bath).

 

It's a game. Play in the way that works for you and your dog.

 

If you don't want to touch startline stays, then don't.

 

Really, if that works for you, nobody should care. It's a game.

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