Storybook Farm Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi! I'm new here (posted first in Rescue forum). There's a 3 yo bitch that has a herding background and has been "socialized" whose family farm is being foreclosed, so the family must give up their dogs. Technically then she's not a rescue dog; I've no idea currently about any more details. MY first question: being green to the world of BCs and stock, can I hope to successfully train such a dog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 I'll give you a resounding YES!!! Border Collies are extremely smart, and you can teach old dogs new tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covelo Dogs Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Possibly, if you had someone to help you get started. But most likely it would not work. You would be much better off finding a dog that can help you learn. They are out there but it may take time to find one. Good luck, Suki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 If you're looking for a stockdog, I'd find an experienced person who can evaluate her on stock for you before committing to her. A 3 y/o can be successfully started and be trained to be a useful farm dog IF they have what it takes in the genetics dept. While you certainly can't tell everything with an initial evaluation, at least that way you'd have a decent educated guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Is this one of the dogs listed in the rescue section where the subject line mentions working/trialing dogs? If so, then the dogs do work (I've seen them). If not, a 3-y.o. can certainly be trained to work, especially if it's working bred (i.e., has the working-bred genetics). I got one of my first trial dogs at age 5. He had confidence issues, but was certainly trainable. Though we didn't make it to open when trialing, he was still a plenty useful farm dog (and he came with some serious confidence issues). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Deleted post, as it probably sounds rude rather than helpful, though that wasn't my intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Can you? Yes, if the dog has the genetic potential and you have the right guidance. If you need a working dog you had better make sure an experienced trainer evaluates the dog first. A look at the pedigree, if available, can also yield clues about the dog's potential. Be prepared for the possibility of ending up with a pet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 I have to reiterate that I think it would be in your best interests to first make some contacts with people in your area (or within a reasonable distance), and let it be known that you are looking for a trained or well-started dog, and looking for some training yourself. Coupling an unknown entity (a rescue dog or a pup) with an inexperienced handler is not generally a recipe for success. Add in the fact that you are, as you say, "new to stock" as well. It could turn out very successfully but the odds are against you. The best advice I have been given, and much of which I ignored or wasn't aware of in time for it to help me, would be to find a mentor (someone to learn from, who can help train *you*); become familiar with your chosen form of livestock (again, that mentor can help you) so that you know what you are working with as stock are not hairy people and not all stock (even within a species) behave and respond in the same way; seek a trained or well-started dog that can do some useful work along with helping to "train you". I started out with a pup; did not have very good training to begin with (anyone can call themselves a trainer but that doesn't mean that person will do a good job of training you or your dog); but I was familiar with my livestock (although I could have been more familiar, particularly by being helped by a mentor. And it has been a struggle. I've not helped my first, easy, good pup by my inexperience and poor personal start at this. I wasn't experienced enough to help my second, more difficult pup. And I certainly was not experienced enough to help my third, quite challenging pup, although I've been fortunate enough to have some excellent help with him (but also made the mistake of sending him out for training so someone who did not give him a good start, but that's a whole different story). What I'm saying in a very long-winded way is to suggest that you make some good contacts; get training for yourself with someone capable and competent; look for a started or trained dog for your own use (and that you can train with); and set yourself up for success. Unknown dogs and pups are a gamble - you want to stack the odds in your favor and not against yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 I came to this activity with little experience training dogs and exactly zero experience with sheep (or any other livestock such as horses). I was lucky to find a good mentor fairly early on; however, even with that mentorship (and that of many others), it has been a very steep curve. When I started, my mentor, who was later echoed by others, told me it'd probably take about ten years to develop the stock and dog skills to trial successfully. I'm in year six and just bought a fully trained dog. In the two months I've had him, my timing and understanding have improved significantly enough that even I can see it. I can't say I wish I'd done it differently and started with a trained dog, but I can say that I would have understood what I was supposed to be doing and what the dog was supposed to be doing faster and more deeply if I had. We've had sheep on our own property for a little over a year. I read them at about the level of a third grader reading chapter books for the first time--kind of still sounding out the big words. Vergil Holland (the author of the book you mentioned in your other thread) once told me that no one should work a dog without first developing some stock sense. Most top handlers who I've asked have said that the most important skill a handler needs is the ability to read the stock. Like others have said, you can probably turn a 3 year old dog with the relevant package of genetic propensities into a useful farm dog. . Thinking through how to best do something like that, you have to assess your own experience training dogs generally and your experience with livestock generally. Experience with horses seems to transfer reasonably well to understanding sheep. Training dogs to a functional job of some kind also tends to transfer to training a stockdog. Help from someone experienced in both is essential in any case. You're lucky to be reasonably close to some great handlers in neighboring states.. Everyone has to start somewhere and at some point you just have to take the plunge, but developing your stock sense and then working with a dog that knows the job pretty well would do a lot to stack the odds of success in your favor. Finding a mentor for the sheep you are interested in adding to your operation might be a more useful first step than focusing on the dog. JMO of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 . When I started, my mentor, who was later echoed by others, told me it'd probably take about ten years to develop the stock and dog skills to trial successfully. Ten years? I´d say that kinda depends on your definition of "successfull trialling". If that is being able to win open trials now and again, probably yes. I think sometimes the cracks on this forum focus a bit too much on how very difficult training a stockdog is. There is something in it if your goals are as high as performing double lifts on the nationals. But the TS wants to know if she can train a 3 year old with stockworking background for farm work on a small operation. My opinion is when you educate yourself, buy Vergil Holland´s book, and the dog has reasonable good instincts, and is biddable, this should be doable. Go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 If possible, as mentioned before, if the dog has zero known work on her, and your keeping her depends soley on her helping you around the farm, find someone to evaluate her. And yes, a suitable 3 year old can be with no major issues. How and who is step two and three. Silly me, I just saw where you said she had herding background. So yes, see how much she knows and if her style fits you. A trainer will help you putting it in perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 I think sometimes the cracks on this forum focus a bit too much on how very difficult training a stockdog is. There is something in it if your goals are as high as performing double lifts on the nationals. Did you honestly just call me a crack? My point, if you'd bothered to actually read and understand my words, is that you need stock and dog sense to do this and if you don't have it, you'll need time to develop it regardless your goals. And, frankly, you don't develop it by reading a book about stockwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 I guess it's not too hard to learn stockwork at the most basic, rudimentary level, if that is all you aspire to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 What is "the most basic rudimentary level"? Oh yeah, Pippin´s person, sorry I seem to have insulted you. I did read and understood your post, and do not understand why you seem to think I didn´t. I just wanted to put a bit of perspective on it for the first poster. You do not need ten years to train up a useful farm dog. And books can be educating (I did not say you could learn dog- or stock sense from them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Oh yeah, Pippin´s person, sorry I seem to have insulted you. No need to apologize, amused, not insulted, Smalahundur. I did read and understood your post, and do not understand why you seem to think I didn´t. Maybe because you seem to think I said it takes ten years to train a useful farm dog. You do not need ten years to train up a useful farm dog. If you believe that's what I said (ETA: or meant), you didn't understand my post And books can be educating (I did not say you could learn dog- or stock sense from them). True, you did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 I think there are two sub-themes going here: training for trialing and training to be useful on the farm. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's true that if you want to be competitive in the world of dog trialing, it's going to take time. It's also true that it can take less time to train a dog to be useful on the farm. But as someone who relies on my dogs to help me on the farm, I will also note that virtually every job is made easier by my fully trained dogs, and if I want to get some practical experience on a youngster, I know full well that the job is likely to be messy, to take longer, and perhaps might even end up in a complete cluster***k that I then have to go get a trained dog to repair. A farm dog doesn't need to be an open trial dog, but a farm dog should have enough training that it is actually helping the process and not hindering. (I have seen people ask often on forums how to prevent their dog from running to the heads and stopping stock that the owner is trying to move through a gate from one pasture to another. Often these people are very frustrated because the dog, following its natural heading/gathering instinct, is trying to stop the stock from escaping. If the handler understood *why* the dog was doing what it was doing, then perhaps that handler could then teach the dog that it's okay to let stock escape and that the dog should stay behind and push--drive--in these situations.) Such a dog should also not be adding to stress on the stock or running weight off of them or biting them or otherwise harrassing them unnecessarily (and yes, I've seen that, and it makes me feel very sorry for the stock)--the whole point of a dog as a farm hand is to make life easier for the human and to help manage livestock efficiently and with s low stress as possible. If I want to do something as simple as move the sheep from one pasture to another here at home, I can use Kestrel (1 year old) and recognize that the sheep are going to move very quickly from point A to point B (and maybe back again, more than once). Because Kes doesn't know how to drive, there's going to be a lot of control on my part to try to keep her from circling (going to the heads) and turning the sheep back on me, and there might even be some yeehaw moments when my attention is turned to, for example, making sure the LGD isn't harassing the chickens for amusement while she waits for me to get the whole mess to the to the new pasture and open the gate. <--Smalahundur, this could be considered the most basic, rudimentary level. Yes, that's an extreme example, but it's easy to visualize how a farmer could be quickly disgusted with a dog like Kes, because while she's providing help of a sort, it's really more hindrance than help. For me, using her is simply a training opportunity, but what if I had only her and I needed to get the stock from point A to point B because a bad storm was coming? Then the whole scenario would appear completely different (i.e., not a training opportunity but a real necessity) and if I were someone new to trying to use a dog to help me with my stock, I'd probably be pretty unhappy with the situation (and with the dog). So, there must be training and there is a learning curve, for new dog *and* new handler. Anyone can take a dog and use it on a farm and might, with no training experience whatsoever, end up with a dog that helps to some degree. But I do think it makes sense to learn about what these dogs can do and make an effort to train them with an emphasis on the "low stress" aspect of livestock handling. And to do that, one at least needs to understand livestock and the what and why of what they do under various situations and how a dog can be trained to help with that. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 MY first question: being green to the world of BCs and stock, can I hope to successfully train such a dog? Marcia, I'm just beginning my own 'handler schooling.' I'm (ahem) 58, and have the great good fortune to have a few good friends who own sheep and like to help total idiots novices such as myself. Gibbs and I just had our 3rd lesson last night. And Gibbs is considered a well-started dog. I'm flabbergasted. I'm useless out there, no, I make it worse. Our first outing last night I walked along with Billy, and tried to give some commands. Since I wasn't confident, Gibbs read that in me and it just didn't work. Quite spectacularly. (No sheep, dogs, or humans were injured!) I can't imagine what it would be like for stock to be set upon by an untrained dog AND and untrained human at the same time. Since Gibbs is started, I need to be trained up to his level. My professors think that working Very Easy Sheep with Gibbs will help me. The closest analogy I come up with is that it's three dimensional chess with figures that have agendas of their own. And they're life sized. And they run right at you. There are soooo many things to pay attention to, it's just overwhelming. My advice is to find yourself a mentor and watch trials. You don't have stock yet, correct? Then you have some time to learn good habits and start to develop your own base of knowledge of how stock are likely to move and what dogs do and don't do that is helpful. You're in an area that is rich in experience and wisdom in stock work. You're going to do quite well with the right help! Oh, and if you don't already know, take your lip balm! And get a hat! And use sunscreen! All right, I'm done. Phew. Ruth and Agent Gibbs, who is feeling very pleased with himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi Marcia, you got an awful lot of response to questions you did not ask. The answer to your question is a resounding YES, you can successfully train a 3 year old dog. And since you are willing to help a struggling family in dire straits, I'll bet things will work out better than you could ever have hoped for. Life is funny that way, isn't it? If you have enough room, love, money, patience, time to care for such a dog...go for it. Give it a try. The very worst that can happen is you'll have helped an unfortunate animal that is losing its' family, and you will have more love in your life. I see from your profile that you are a homesteader and farmer. You likely know more than you think. I'm so sorry about your neighbors heartbreak. Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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