Bit the bullet... herding

[juliepoudrier]

Ah, well in that case, my bad.

But I do stand by my opinion that i think it is a bit sad that a lot of people seem to be in stockdog training only for the competition, and more specificly only for winning those trials.

 

As I said for me trialing is ( eh, might become) a side effect of training a dog for stockwork, not the goal.

 

I don´t consider sheep sporting tools for dogs, but I am pretty ambivalent about it, I do realize that these competitions are the lifeblood of the working border collie breed. And those competitions wouldn´t exist without , well competitive people .

I don´t think only the farming community alone would have preserved this breed. But that is probably also food for an other topic.

I think the last part of your post is the important part. Here in the US at least, although there are plenty of dogs working on farms across the country, it's the competition that gets new people, keeps people interested in the working bred border collie, and so enables the breeding of such dogs (because they create demand).

 

I am not as competitive as some (I like to win, but I don't get terribly upset if I don't and I don't measure the value of myself or my dogs by their wins at competitions), but I do enjoy trials and watching dogs work. Unfortunately we are no longer largely an agrarian society, and so many people are completely removed from livestock and the raising of them. Competition, if approached properly, is one way to re-introduce people to our agrarian roots. I know that I don't just train students to complete a trial course; I teach them about livestock too, so at least some of us who help others to compete are doing more than just teaching someone how to win a competition--we're also teaching about agriculture and the real reasons these dogs were developed.

 

J.

[geonni banner]

But why is this thread even talking about AKC? That wasn't the point of me starting it.

Why are people fussing about the AKC on this thread? Remember those hungry bears I mentioned?

 

If you get into stock dog work – and I hope you do – you will be seeing them again. Most of the hungry bears on the BC Boards are relatively polite bears. Others elsewhere may be less so. Some will simply ignore you, (and you may lose valuable help and support they could otherwise offer,) or they may blow your hair back roaring profanity at you.

 

If you study the issue carefully, you will see why the bears are so testy about the AKC – anything to do with the AKC. For this bear it’s simple. The AKC promotes practices harmful to dogs. Border Collies are dogs. (I know, they’re not just dogs.) Therefore the AKC is harmful to Border Collies. The AKC has no intention of changing, and those who believe they can “change it from the inside” are living in a fool’s paradise. Ergo, I eschew the AKC – “in all its works."

 

You seem genuinely interested in taking your dogs to sheep. Please consider only availing yourself of venues outside the AKC. The rewards to be had are much greater than those offered by the AKC and their half-a$$ed “herding” titles. And you will have the added pleasure of knowing you have not helped the organization which does so much harm to so many dogs and the people who own and love them.

[terrecar]

Plus, let's face it, if you get involved with AKC you are probably going to become more and more involved. There's more than one slippery slope.

 

Just to state the obvious... 'Slippery slope' is actually a conditional fallacy, which makes the second statement a rather interesting play on words.

[TEC]

Competition on the field drives handlers, yet as above-mentioned by juliepoudrier, Smalahundur, and others, there are other satisfying and important avenues open to folks who become involved in sheepdog herding activities, such as getting back to the earth, and farm/ranch stock management.

 

Who has the figures regarding demographics of herding dogs? World-wide number of herding dogs who earn their livings on farms/ranches has to contribute hugely to the percentages. Border Collie herding competition serves an important purpose, but fundamentally, isn't it a means to an end? Competition's ultimate goal, it seems to me, is to put talented dogs in the hands of farmers/ranchers in order to manage their stock.

 

Learning how to mold/shape instinct, recreation, developing strengthened bond with a pet, are no doubt high among numerous good reasons to make the drive to the farm.

 

Last week's 2012 USBCHA National Finals at Klamath Falls, OR for an observer like me, was similar to reading a book chapter by chapter, each one written by a top expert. It was a wonderful opportunity to watch various excellent handling techniques, in order to apply them in trials as well as in practical situations. -- Kind regards, TEC

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

 

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." Eldridge Cleaver's version of "You're with us or agin' us" has generated smugness and inaction. Because the notion is so plausible, manipulators use it to defang opposition. (Remember :"Registries don't ruin breeds, breeders ruin breeds?" The moral may underlie the political but it is not the political and one no more solves our solid waste problem by virtuous recycling than one mitigates the harm the AKC does by virtuously abstaining from their programs (aka: all their works and ways).

 

There are plenty of wonderful dog fanciers and plenty of conformation showers who pay their taxes, volunteer for good works and love their dogs as much and as deeply as you and I do.

 

They're not wicked: their culture is wicked. Changing that culture is a political task and doesn't depend on whether one person runs her dog in AKC "herding" events or real sheepdog trials.

 

That said there's a real reason to avoid doing so. Dogs are spiritually plastic: they will become what we think of them. They can become "Fur people" or "Noble" or "Useful" or give "Unconditional Luv". They can be prestige possessions who prove their worth most importantly in conformation shows and (to augment conformation theories) at obedience trials or "herding" events.

 

Traditional sheepdog trials and the rough and ready Brit/Tex culture that grew up around those trials, sees a different dog.

 

Let me exaggerate to make a point: "My dog is the same dog the greatest Duke or Earl might own and has proved himself by the aristocratic titles in his pedigree and those he's earned himself in many venues. He is a true CHAMPION."

 

Vs. "If I were alone at night in a storm trying the keep three hundred weanlings from rejoining their Mothers, this is the dog I'd want with me. I NEED him."

 

If it is true that the AKC dog shower might only show now and again (her real interest is agility, say, or rally) her dog is a potential CHAMPION from long lines of CHAMPIONS.

 

And the utter beginner, who takes her dog to sheep in a small ring where everything is blurry confusion; her dog comes from a long line of dogs that were NECESSARY and may become NECESSARY himself.

 

One doesn't change the AKC by refraining from its events. One changes the AKC by political struggle.

 

But, if one wants to see your sheepdog for what it is and can be, one must learn from those who have needed a sheepdog.

 

Donald McCaig

[juliepoudrier]

But, if one wants to see your sheepdog for what it is and can be, one must learn from those who have needed a sheepdog.

 

Donald McCaig

Great post Donald, but I have to point out, after spending years on a stockdog training list that is largely AKC folks, that those folks also say they need their dogs. So again, it's left up to the new handler to figure out whether the words truly reflect the declared deeds....

 

J.

[terrecar]

One doesn't change the AKC. <-- You may as well stop there.

 

It just isn't going to happen.

 

Until the $ walks, the BS will keep on talking.

 

 

ETA: And I don't mean entry fees. They're a mere pittance.

ETA2: And it looks like their money is walking. I just took a peek at their 2010 990.

[TEC]

One doesn't change the AKC. <-- You may as well stop there.

 

It just isn't going to happen.

 

Until the $ walks, the BS will keep on talking.

 

 

ETA: And I don't mean entry fees. They're a mere pittance.

ETA2: And it looks like their money is walking. I just took a peek at their 2010 990.

 

I understand a part of the above is widespread feelings that AKC is a juggernaut. Please realize inevitability is a belief that AKC and potential AKC parent clubs wish to promote to dog owners and general public. Have seen it (from afar). You have no doubt heard the fallacious mantra in all walks of life, "It's going to happen, and there's nothing that can be done about it",or "It will happen whether we like it or not, so just go with the flow (unsaid, but right under the surface: "...and take-in the money AKC recognition brings"). These are slogans officers and members of breed clubs who wish to become fully recognized by AKC use to bring around those who are on the fence about entering under their tent.

 

I try to keep inevitability out of my rhetoric regarding AKC, for above reasons. Terrecar's quote retains hope with, "Until the money walks the BS keeps on...". Agreed, AKC is not a continued certainty. When the public realizes the harm AKC has already done, under-funding will become the ultimate weakness that will bring it down. Good news about the 2010 nine-ninety. Please understand, Terrecar, I believe we are on the same page, perhaps the same sentence.

 

AKC is seriously flawed, and the public is starting to realize. Some who would have joined, may have decided against it. More and more will begin to slip out of the ranks. Decay will occur, because a linchpin of AKC, the written conformation breed standard, will be impossible to fix. AKC's own hard-headedness will be their downfall. AKC papers will become less desirable. People will vote with their feet, and the "$ [will] walk".

 

Kind person who started this thread: My suggestion is to have fun learning to move livestock with your dog. Locate a qualified instructor, and one who you feel comfortable with. Obtaining titles seems so fleeting and superficial. Work toward good stockmanship, understanding your dog and his/her instincts, and studying the rural roots of the border collie going back to the hayday of the wool industry in England/Scotland. -- Best wishes, TEC

-- TEC

[terrecar]

Decay will occur <snip>

 

Decay has already occurred. _______ ________ is still on the board (or he was in 2010). Is the 'good man' still even breathing?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

After we lost the fight to keep the Border Collie out of the AKC, I suggested "A Lithuanian Strategy". In 1964 I taught a Lithuanian (philosophy) student whose family and friends still met and worked and agitated for Free Lithuania. In the reality of the Soviet Empire, their fight seemed hopeless, even laughable.

 

I thought we Border Collie people should take every chance to oppose the AKC and that one day they would collapse and be forced to disgorge their ill-got gains - including the Border Collie.

 

Those younger than myself don't remember who powerful the AKC was, We (the Border Collie community) were the only ones speaking publicly. Most dog people were terrified that the AKC could "put them out of dogs". If your life revolved around dogs, the AKC was deeply and personally scarey. Indeed, though most of them finally and reluctantly signed on with the Dark Side, AKC obedience and agility competitors were our bravest supporters. They were denied wins, ostracized and heaven help them if they set a foot wrong.

 

In the early days of the Dog Wars, AKC's powerful, wealthy directors wrote "Dear Jack" letters to magazine publishers who'd printed some critical snippet demanding "Jack" discipline the "yellow journalist". threatening the magazine with legal action and "Jack's" expulsion from the 400. One reporter showed me their letter muttering, "It's like something out of the 19th century".

 

These days, we Lithuanians are doing a little better, thanks. When Border Collie folk said "the emperor has no clothing" very many people said, "Jeez, you're right", and AKC registrations plummeted - the last time they published figures (2008), they were down over fifty percent and Terrierman (Patrick Burns) (who gets his facts straight) writes as of 2012, their registrations are down 70% from the high. They've tried unsuccessfully to get in bed with the once despised puppy millers.

 

And, in the UK, the documentary "Purebred dogs exposed" has knocked the Kennel Club (the AKC's inspiration) into a cocked hat. The film's been shown in this country too and though ordinary dog owners haven't connected the dots between UK dog shows/breeding practices and the Westminster dog show/breeding practices, that connection is waiting to be made.

 

The wind is against the AKC. They've got countless vocal critics, their money spring is drying up and they are institutionally stuck in the late 19th century. One day, I hope in my lifetime, they must set their dogs free..

 

Donald McCaig

[terrecar]

Didn't mean to touch a nerve... Actually, I was referring more to the mentality of the AKC (upper crust)--although granted, they have had to 'change' in some sense in order to catch falling revenues--not the plausibility of 'taking them down'. The good old boys haven't changed their central premises (BS, if you will)--the ideas that prompt them to 'value' their dogs--and I don't see that changing. My initial point was that I don't think you're going to change the AKC (from within, if that's what you mean by "political struggle"). However, that is not a fact. It is an opinion. And while a swipe at my ability to get my own facts straight might be warranted, I am not inclined to bring any argument (with or without facts) in defense of the AKC. I don't have that pulpit, and I would reject it on principle if it were offered.

[JohnLloydJones]

These days, we Lithuanians are doing a little better, thanks. When Border Collie folk said "the emperor has no clothing" very many people said, "Jeez, you're right", and AKC registrations plummeted - the last time they published figures (2008), they were down over fifty percent and Terrierman (Patrick Burns) (who gets his facts straight) writes as of 2012, their registrations are down 70% from the high. They've tried unsuccessfully to get in bed with the once despised puppy millers.

The gradual demise of the AKC has, undoubtedly, many causes, but from where I am standing, public understanding does not appear to be the primary cause. The people who previously rushed to buy a pedigree dog now rush, equally carelessly, to buy a mongrel designer dog.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Terrecar wrote (in part)

 

"Didn't mean to touch a nerve... ]My initial point was that I don't think you're going to change the AKC (from within, if that's what you mean by "political struggle""

 

Nerves unmolested, thanks. The Border Collie community's fight against the AKC has been from outside that culture. When I hear some earnest dogger suggest the "work from within" strategy. I wince. AKC Directors and Presidents get hammered when they try to make modest changes in that org. It doesn't work because the power doesn't reside in the AKC, it resides with the Westminster/Westchester Kennel Clubs and their unelected, undemocratic Good Old Boy network.

 

Donald McCaig

[urge to herd]

The gradual demise of the AKC has, undoubtedly, many causes, but from where I am standing, public understanding does not appear to be the primary cause. The people who previously rushed to buy a pedigree dog now rush, equally carelessly, to buy a mongrel designer dog.

 

What John said. There are so many ways to indulge the impulse to buy that cute puppies that the AKC is simply no longer the be-all and end-all of canine elitism, except in its own mind. When you can look on the internet and go pick up a puppy the same day, why on earth would you take the trouble to research a breeeder? They're just dogs, after all.

 

Put another way, I don't think it is public understanding that is bringing the AKC down, at least in the US. It's capitalism at it's worst, selling shoddy goods on every street corner for incredibly inflated prices. Anyone can be a dog breeder and sell puppies. And they do.

 

Before anyone takes offense, I'm not knocking capitalism. It's the best economic system for the most even distribution of resources, I believe. It has its dark side, though. And puppy millers/poor breeders/impulse purchases are very much a part of that dark side.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

 

Ruth

[Sue R]

Put another way, I don't think it is public understanding that is bringing the AKC down, at least in the US. It's capitalism at it's worst, selling shoddy goods on every street corner for incredibly inflated prices. Anyone can be a dog breeder and sell puppies. And they do.

And a lot of what passes for "registered purebred" pups nowadays are the poor creatures that are "registered" with the multitude of alternative (I'd call them *rap registries) that have sprung up due to disgruntled breeders (thinking of one breeder-born BC "registry in particular), and those wanting to bypass the traditional registries and their demands (like the "Continental Kennel Club" and its like, whose "registration" papers are nothing more than a vehicle for backyard breeders and millers to charge more for poorly-produced and poorly-bred pups).

 

In the US, anyone can form a "registry" and I've seen everyone from the person next door to the veterinarian's office fall for "CKC-registered" (for example) without realizing just how meaningless that is.

 

AKC as an organization is not *for* the dogs, it is for its own bloated self - but there are many, many responsible people who have AKC-bred dogs and who produce good pups that are registered with AKC. I would not paint much of the rank-and-file with the broad brush that I would paint the administration and the serious show-ring/title-oriented aficionados. The rank-and-file are generally good people but misled, in my opinion.

 

PS - By "rank-and-file" I am referring to those people who have an AKC-registered dog or few (and probably got AKC-registered pups because they thought it was a sign of quality), do a little bit of showing/performance activities, maybe produce an occasional, carefully-bred and -raised, carefully-placed litter, and belong to their chosen breed's club.

[terrecar]

Whew! For a minute there, I thought I might have inadvertently poked one of those bears! Just kidding.

 

RE: the AKC conformation thing, it is often more about the egos than the dogs, that's for sure, and it gets real petty. Still, I don't want to get all judgy (I know. Too late). IOW, I wouldn't paint every AKC breeder (or even every handler) with that broad brush. Many truly believe they are doing no harm; some even that they're doing the 'responsible' thing, misguided though that may be; that deontological vs.utilitarian thing again (if I may be so presumptuous pretentious again). However, someone has ruined the German Shepherd Dog (for one) in the US, and it isn't the Schutzhund folks.

 

I have a real bear story...

 

Re: Westchester KC. My one trip. Now in fairness, an outsider might be treated with at least as much disdain by one insular group as another. That dreaded unwashed 'other' (with evil intent to boot) you know. However, rarely have I seen such pathetic self-importance as this: I remember watching a terrier judge and sometime AKC board member (who I referenced in a prior post) withhold a ribbon from a young junior handler who took a finishable but mediocre dog (by AKC standards) into the breed ring. Okay so far. It's been done. However, even if the dog was that bad--it wasn't--his refusal to award a ribbon could have been done with a lot less pomp and circumstance. He was all about ostentatious display (all up in his courtly mix with his bad self), while that girl was visibly, thoroughly crushed. You'd think someone of his 'stature' would have shown a little grace.

 

Bears...

 

 

 

 

(OH MY!)

Edited October 9, 2012 by terrecar

[mum24dog]

Terrierman (Patrick Burns) (who gets his facts straight)

 

You reckon? Maybe he does on US matters - I wouldn't know - but I see a fair amount of utter rubbish he writes about matters outside his own experience. It would be a huge mistake to believe something just because he says/writes it.

 

And, in the UK, the documentary "Purebred dogs exposed" has knocked the Kennel Club (the AKC's inspiration) into a cocked hat.

 

"Pedigree Dogs Exposed". Inspiration for the creation of the AKC our KC may have been but make no mistake in thinking that they are the same type of monster nowadays. Yes, our KC was put on the back foot by PDE, not least because it doesn't have a slick PR department, but "knocked into a cocked hat" is an exaggeration. The management has developed a rudimentary backbone and stood up to some of the breed clubs in minor ways, that's all.

 

I'm ambivalent about our KC. I see the good it does, I see that it gets involved in all matters dog irrespective of pedigree, and I see its involvement in the totally pointless business of breed showing. And I've also seen a change towards modernisation under the last Chairman. Changes come slowly in a set up like the KC because I'm sure that many of the members see no incentive, being immersed in their own interest and failing to see the bigger picture, but it does happen. Going down with the sinking ship isn't an option - not that it was ever sinking, just took on a bit of water, that's all, and the management have been busy baling.

[terrecar]

I haven't bothered to fact-check him, but I think he gets his acronyms right.

[PSmitty]

I haven't bothered to fact-check him, but I think he gets his acronyms right.

 

[Eileen Stein]

The moral may underlie the political but it is not the political and one no more solves our solid waste problem by virtuous recycling than one mitigates the harm the AKC does by virtuously abstaining from their programs (aka: all their works and ways).

 

One reduces (not solves) our solid waste problem by recycling, and aggravates it by not recycling. One reduces the influence of the AKC by refraining from participation in its programs, and one increases the influence of the AKC by paying money to it, registering dogs with it, and supporting its programs.

 

One doesn't change the AKC by refraining from its events. One changes the AKC by political struggle.

 

Oh, that sounds so glamorous. Political struggle! I wonder what that means. Can you do that at the same time you're registering your dogs with AKC, paying them money and supporting their programs? Why is it less deserving of the snide descriptor "virtuous"?

 

These days, we Lithuanians are doing a little better, thanks. When Border Collie folk said "the emperor has no clothing" very many people said, "Jeez, you're right", and AKC registrations plummeted - the last time they published figures (2008), they were down over fifty percent and Terrierman (Patrick Burns) (who gets his facts straight) writes as of 2012, their registrations are down 70% from the high.

 

Gosh, and all thanks to us! But wait a minute -- didn't their registrations plummet because many individuals made the decision not to register with them and participate in their programs?

 

I'm confused . . .

[Pam Wolf]

I believe a combination of things caused the decline in registrations. The pop culture of the designer dog came along, as well as AKC making tighter regulations of PM's which cost the PM money so they left the AKC and started their own registries. Those combined with stories like Purebred Dogs ect caused the decline in purebred registrations.

[Pearse]

 

 

As for the AKC route, well it is what it is and we can't fix the AKC, but perhaps with encouragement we can fix some who can learn that a proper Border Collie is bred for stock work and the only way to know which dogs should be bred is throught the work. Not all Border Collie owners have access to stock and do other sports-that is simply a fact. IMO it is better to educate one willing to learn than to discourage them. People will put up resistance and do just the opposite if negatively pushed by one group

 

To the OP, Hope you enjoyed your venture into the wonderful world of the real Border Collie. I hope you are able to continue and learn why so many on these boards are against the AKC route for Border Collies.

 

I'm with Pam on this one. Over the past few years, I've seen at least a couple of dozen people around here start out in AKC herding and come over to dip their toes in the water at USBCHA style trials, usually in Novice. They weren't criticised for doing AKC herding, and they were welcomed at the USBCHA style trials. Some have stayed and gone on to be good handlers who no longer trial AKC. Some do both AKC and USBCHA style trials, and some realized that USBCHA trials were not for them and went back to doing AKC.

 

Much as I hate to see money going to AKC for entry fees, and people getting titles on dogs who can't get around a novice style USBCHA course, if people want to come over and try a USBCHA style trial, we need to be welcoming and encouraging, let them see what a challenge it is and what dogs with any talent can do on a trial course, and encourage them to train their dogs to that level. It will benefit the dogs in the long run if the best dogs come over and get better running on bigger courses.

 

 

 

[Pearse]

Smalahundur,

This thread isn't about training a dog because you need the dog to help you manage your stock. It's about someone wanting to train her dogs for competition. Donald's comments were about training for competition. One can train up a useful farm dog fairly quickly, but if one wants to be *competitive* at stockdog trials, which is what Donald was referring to, then yes, it takes a while.

 

J.

 

I still say Donald's painting a rather bleak portrait, tongue in cheek somewhat I'd guess. The journey to the trial field is it's own reward. For better or worse, many of the more brilliant things a dog will do, he/she will do in a work situation or on the training field when no one but you is around to see it.

 

Trials are hard on the old ego as Donald points out. Sometimes there are no prizes and no one remembers any dog but the winner. Usually, prizes are to the top 10% - 20% but no one really remembers much about the even the winners at all but the biggest trials (think >60 - 70 Open dogs). That's how it's supposed to be and the reason why most stockdog people don't have much respect for "titles" which can be earned by not winning but by putting in multiple mediocre results on an already absurdly simple course. Contrast that with the recent National Finals where the course was set to be difficult enough that barely 50% of the top 17 dogs could get around it in the final round. I think that's what Donald means when he says that the trial field is a harsh mistress (or more colorful words to that effect).

[vandog]

Much as I hate to see money going to AKC for entry fees, and people getting titles on dogs who can't get around a novice style USBCHA course, if people want to come over and try a USBCHA style trial, we need to be welcoming and encouraging, let them see what a challenge it is and what dogs with any talent can do on a trial course, and encourage them to train their dogs to that level. It will benefit the dogs in the long run if the best dogs come over and get better running on bigger courses.

 

Very interesting observation.

So very, very true.

Welcoming and encouraging and two things that I have not witnessed in a lot of dog "sports" these days. Than again I prefer to reserve my own judgement until I attend an actual USBCHA event, from there I will draw my own conclusions. Thus far from the AKC crowd I've heard mixed reviews re: the welcoming aspect but I think a lot of that could be because their ACK dog couldn't cut it on the field.

[Smalahundur]

Thanks Pearse, that was exactly what I meant with my reaction to Donald´s post, , the training and working of your own dog should be a rewarding experience in itself, regardless of trial ambition and/or -succes.

I also imagine one wouldn´t get far (or even last long) trialing if that is not the case.