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Bit the bullet... herding


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Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

 

A few unrelated points:

 

(1) I doubt very much that awakening a dog's sheep instincts one time causes any dog regrets. I don't think dogs do regrets. Their owners may.

 

(2) I'd not worry if I saw a dog tied to the outside of a training ring. Sometimes the excitement will encourage a disinterested dog to "see sheep". I'd worry about the instructor's competance if many or most dogs were tied to the ring. Excitement makes Border Collies stupid.

 

(3) As a sometime instructor I've very often had novices bring their dogs into the ring and have nothing happen. Zip. The novice is distraught and takes my shrug as evidence of my indifference to their dog (or my incompetence), What I know, and they don't is that well bred dogs don't always "see sheep" the first time, nor the second time nor the third time and other than exciting them (not into "work drive", into "prey /chasing drive") there isn't much I can do about it. BUT in my experience I've only had one (1) wellbred Border Collie that wouldn't "see sheep" (and he saw them alright, he just didn't want to have anything to do with them.)

 

(4)If I had a student who wanted to take her dog to sheep having done very well in agility, I'd encourage it for the same reason I've run my sheepdogs through an agility course. One cannot learn too much about these dogs. If he/she started talking sheepdog trials, I'd probably disuade them. While I know top agility and obedience competitors who've become open handlers, I know only one who still does agility and none who continued with obedience/rally/frisbee/flyball/SAR. Stockwork requires an outsized commitment. You must own and rear sheep. You must be willing to change how you see your dog. You must persist for 4-10 years though rewards are few and fragmentary and disappointments and humiliations are common as dirt. When you've become competitive you may have a year or two when, despite your skills, knowledge and determination you don't win a single trial.

 

Narrow is the way.

 

Donald McCaig

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So I decided to start trying herding. I would like to get a versatile title on my border collies and since Cressa will most likely be getting her 2nd MACH this year, plus she is already a national champion... shrug that and the last time Cressa was on sheep she was the "best" one of all of our dogs. Thought hey let's give it a try again.

 

My question stemmed from this statement. That and your continued support for AKC with little understanding or care for the general anti-akc sentiments of the majority of these boards. And somewhat of misunderstanding the "bite the bullet comment". I have personally never heard of a versatile title and am surprised that's not an akc thing. Something like their Master Herding program.

 

I have seen AKC bred dogs that respond exactly they way you describe Cressa and since it wasn't her first time on sheep I lept to that conclusion. My Bad.

 

I'm not from the camp of only work sheep if you own them or can get to them everyday or often. It amazes me what a dog retains when he doesn't see sheep often or hardly ever. I don't think a dog suffers from not being taken to stock if he was put on them at one time. A good life is just that, a good life with stock or without.

 

I do feel stock should be respected and worked accordingly.

 

And I totally agree with Mr. Donald, tying a dog to the fence which sheep are being worked right behind will either,

A. help turn them on, which sounds like it might have helped Cressa when she saw the excitement of the gripping incident or

B. make a dog crazy.

My findings have been more the later as most dogs I'm around are keen to work at just about any age.

 

Good luck with your dogs.

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(1) I doubt very much that awakening a dog's sheep instincts one time causes any dog regrets.

 

I most definitely concur with this.

 

I started both Speedy and Dean on sheep. With Speedy it was both for me to have a chance to see if it was something that I was interested in doing, and it was an outlet for him at a time in his life when he was going through some difficulty.

 

He absolutely loved it, and he took a good many lessons, but we quit because it was aggravating his arthritis.

 

Immediately after that, he and I got very heavily involved in Musical Freestyle, and he developed a true passion for that. Neither he nor I ever missed sheep, although he had turned on and enjoyed his lessons thoroughly.

 

I took some lessons with Dean because at that time I was dead set on "doing it all" with him. He turned on and he liked it a lot, as well. He was better at it than Speedy, but it was right about that time when I really began to see clearly that I did not like being in the pen with the sheep, and that it was not something that I was interested in doing.

 

He has never been any the worse for having had a few lessons. He certainly hasn't spent his life pining for sheep. There are sometimes sheep pastured right up next to the outdoor Agility field where we train, and he has no problem running with them there. He doesn't pay them any mind at all.

 

I'm not saying that I think everyone should make that same choice, but it is the case the both dogs are perfectly content doing the things that we do, and they don't miss the sheep. Having the chance to work with them and turn on did both of them a lot of good, and neither they, nor I, regret that brief experience at all.

 

To the OP - I think it's good that you "bit the bullet" and are having this experience. It might lead to something, and it may not, but it will give you a chance to learn more about your dogs, and that is almost always a good thing.

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??? Not. Sure what the question is. But when cress 1st started about 4 years ago. It was in a horse arena and there was only one dog out at a time the rest were left in the car. Cressa sniffed the area and the sheep then it was all works mode. She demonstrated eye and the crouch, and reading the sheep. Her second time on sheep she was more keen to start working with them. Then something happen and the sheep were gone and at least in the agility world I was told to stay away from the trainer. There was some not nice dog treatment happening and after the trainer terrified one dog from even looking. At sheep I also stayed away.

 

Thus when we saw sheep again I thought Cress would of still turn on even in the different circumstances but she just seem nervous. But knowing Cress this last time a ton of things happen that would of made her nervous or unsure.

 

Maybe not here or there but Cressa has been attacked by other dogs in intense mode. Heck most dogs get turn onto Cressa since she is small, fast/quick, and also intense.

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Idk the answer to that question. I would like to say work but I don't know enough about herding to say that. Her tail was low and she had everything else.

 

I remember grinning and staring at her since she just got it. I love just watching her do it. Sorry not more help.

 

Will be next week going out with another trainer. Couldn't do it this week since he will be going to a cattle trial. I have heard positive things about him. So... :)

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And it's USBCHA trials, not USBCC (which is the club that maintains these boards). I expect that was a typo and you knew that!

 

Nope. It wasn't a typo. My fingers were accurate; my brain had a memory lapse. :lol: Thanks for the edit! I needed it. :)

 

 

ETA: However, I used "spectator" rather than "audit" fee because that was how it was listed on the Sheepdog-L where I lurk and keep my 'mouth' shut ;)

 

ETA2: SS Cressa, sorry for the hijack. I guess my point is that, if your maxim is "first, do no harm", then I personally think it is great that you're taking an interest! You have a wealth of expertise on this board to steer you in the right direction. JMHO

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Sorry bout another post... but if you look up the slang for bit the Bullet its to stop procrastinating.

 

http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/bite-the-bullet

 

But I should of used a different term to make my meaning more clear.

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Idk the answer to that question. I would like to say work but I don't know enough about herding to say that. Her tail was low and she had everything else.

Okay, let me ask more explicitly. Did she circle the sheep? Did she go in both directions around the sheep? If the person working her (not you, I assume) backed up, did Cressa get behind the sheep and then move them toward the person?

 

Or did she just crouch and stare and hold them against the arena fence?

 

Have you spent any time looking at the videos in the training section above? If you're truly interested in doing this, it would be helpful if you exposed yourself to what it should look like. There are trial videos that show fully trained dogs (including some of the top dogs in this country and in the UK) and there are a lot of videos of youngsters just starting, which would give you a good idea of what work looks like in the beginning.

 

You will have a better idea what your dogs should be doing, and what you should be doing to help them, if you get an idea beforehand of what it is you're looking for WRT work. There are plenty of examples for you to see, and even just watching snippets of the videos will give you a better idea of what to look for, and might also help you realize if the trainer(s) you've chosen are using the "normal" approach to training.

 

There's nothing to preclude an older dog from starting. One of my first dogs didn't really start in training and trialing till he was 5. Starting late may mean you won't make it all the way up through the ranks before the dog is too old to easily run an open course (assuming you're staying away from AKC "herding"), but it shouldn't prevent your dogs from learning. And if you come to find that you really enjoy it, then you can always add a young dog later--one chosen with an eye toward success working stock.

 

J.

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Yes she went both ways. Had no problem circling. I think on the second session we were working on her finding the pressure zone. We would walk around with Cressa tailing the sheep. If the sheep crowded us too much I think we would down her... not sure anymore since its been awhile. Cress would work for the trainer and her student. We were friends with the student from agility.

 

And yes I have watched video of dogs working but in my understanding videos vs reality are quite different and people generally post things that are good/positive and not always the struggle to get there. Maybe I should relook though. Thanks for your suggestions.

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Silly me, I thought the sticking point about the whole AKC thing was, not to BREED on AKC titles and sport? When was it bad to take a Border Collie and show AKC or UKC or any other KC (if that is what floats your boat!)?

 

 

Some people agree with this, many don't. It's a fine line for those of us who do, to tread here...

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Oh! OH! I know this one! Ask me! <jumps up and down enthusiastically>

 

The Border Collie Society of America has a program that offers a versatility award. Here's the worksheet. You get 3 points for finishing a Nov/Nov course with 50% of points in each element, for example. Placing in 5 Open trials gets you 10 points. I think you need 7 points across 3 activities for a versatility title. Oh, and someone should tell them it's HOBBES, not HOBBLES. In a ridiculous worksheet, that was my favourite. smile.gif

So, while you have to have at least a point in "herding" for a "versatility title", you can get that with a "herding test" or the equivalent. Two points for a Beginners Novice (does anyone do that?) or three for a Nov/Nov. Well, isn't that a high standard?

 

When you can get a "herding test" with almost any dog that chases sheep ("sustained interest"), I can see they have raised the bar very high at AKC, again. Not.

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I think it's the same argument that's been made here forever: Why give money to an organization whose philosophies encourage the breeding practices that have led to the ruination of many a useful breed. You're right that participating in AKC events isn't the same as breeding and conformation showing KC dogs, but it's still putting money into the machine so to speak. But I think you've been on this forum long enough to already know this answer.

 

J.

What Julie said. You are supporting AKC when you participate in its programs, events, etc. Plus, let's face it, if you get involved with AKC you are probably going to become more and more involved. There's more than one slippery slope.

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You must persist for 4-10 years though rewards are few and fragmentary and disappointments and humiliations are common as dirt. When you've become competitive you may have a year or two when, despite your skills, knowledge and determination you don't win a single trial.

 

 

Well that is putting it a bit bleak, and in my humble opinion totally ignores the main reason why one (at least me...)is traing a stockdog.

Ehm, to save time stress and energy moving stock.

 

Through sheer luck I got to own Gláma about 14 months ago, she was a year old then, and pretty much a blank page. I started training her as soon as I got her, now in the fall gathering she has turned out to be a great help, and that is not "few and fragmentary rewards", that is the greatest reward I can think of.

 

Yes I would participate in a trial when given the chance, and I would like to complete the course without looking like an idiot. But succes on the trial field would be not very important to me because she has proven her worth as a working dog for me. That is more than enough.

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So if being around AKC makes you get more involved and slide down the slippery slope (which by the way has not happened yet to me although quite a few of my acquaintances do show AKC - and no, ain't ever going to either for more than one reason), then the same should be possible for being around true sheepdog people! Yes??? And the silly part of me likes that idea. A lot! :)

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So by that reasoning I shouldn't be trying to find/ training with people who trial with usbcha and understand border collies. I should be just sticking with AKC and just go with people who only support AKC herding. Am I allowed to even trial with USDAA since they aren't AKC sanction? Oh boy now I am totally worried about it. Not!

 

I am not the only person who does AKC events and is interested in learning more about livestock and the working of them. But what I do with my $$$ shouldn't be your concern. Specially when the point was just to share my dogs experience on livestock and what we ran into.

 

But why is this thread even talking about AKC? That wasn't the point of me starting it.

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.........

 

Will be next week going out with another trainer. Couldn't do it this week since he will be going to a cattle trial. I have heard positive things about him. So... :)

 

 

Do keep us posted how Cressa and Troy do for their next time. I hope you have an excellent day and lots of fun. :)

 

~ Gloria

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Well that is putting it a bit bleak, and in my humble opinion totally ignores the main reason why one (at least me...)is traing a stockdog.

Ehm, to save time stress and energy moving stock.

Smalahundur,

This thread isn't about training a dog because you need the dog to help you manage your stock. It's about someone wanting to train her dogs for competition. Donald's comments were about training for competition. One can train up a useful farm dog fairly quickly, but if one wants to be *competitive* at stockdog trials, which is what Donald was referring to, then yes, it takes a while.

 

J.

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As for the whole AKC thing, I get why people compete in AKC and in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't truly bother me if people choose to compete in AKC agility, obedience, rally, or any of the other performance events they offer (it's not something I'd do, but I can see why others would). But I would be a hypocrite if I said it wouldn't bother me if people spent their money going to AKC herding trials. I've seen enough of those to know that there's absolutely no comparison between the work that is done under AKC's auspices and that done under USBCHA type trialing. I have mixed feelings about AHBA and ASCA, but don't think they're a bad place to *start out.* Anyway, no doubt I'm offending folks right and left, but I have to be honest.

 

J.

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Smalahundur,

This thread isn't about training a dog because you need the dog to help you manage your stock. It's about someone wanting to train her dogs for competition. Donald's comments were about training for competition. One can train up a useful farm dog fairly quickly, but if one wants to be *competitive* at stockdog trials, which is what Donald was referring to, then yes, it takes a while.

 

J.

Ah, well in that case, my bad.

I do agree with that assessment of the amount of time it takes training up for trials. I consider us two just about ready to try our hand at the lowest level of trialling here (the so called young dog group, for dogs under three years old), and then we´ll need quite some of luck drawing "the right kind of" sheep :D .

 

But I do stand by my opinion that i think it is a bit sad that a lot of people seem to be in stockdog training only for the competition, and more specificly only for winning those trials.

 

As I said for me trialing is ( eh, might become) a side effect of training a dog for stockwork, not the goal.

 

I don´t consider sheep sporting tools for dogs, but I am pretty ambivalent about it, I do realize that these competitions are the lifeblood of the working border collie breed. And those competitions wouldn´t exist without , well competitive people ;) .

I don´t think only the farming community alone would have preserved this breed. But that is probably also food for an other topic.

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