Doing away with the kennel?

[Runzbarrel]

Brock is almost 10mos old now. He's to the point that we can leave him in the house (with treats) when we leave and he's fine. He still eats in his kennel and sleeps in it at night although he'd rather curl up in the corner of the room. He's just about to be too big for the kennel we have for him. I really don't want to buy a bigger kennel for him since our house is so small and it takes up so much space in our bedroom. He'd be totally OK with me stuffing his dog bed and laying it in the same place. I guess my question is, is it really necessary to keep him in a kennel at this point? I know for some dogs it's a sense of security etc. But Brock is pretty confident and secure and as long as his people are around he's cool

Obviously I still need to get him a bigger kennel for traveling but that would be kept in the truck.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

[Gideon's girl]

If he's that good in the house, then the need for the kennel may only reappear if he gets injured or something and needs confinement. Having one the proper size available, if needed, is all that is necessary.

[Debbie Meier]

It's amazing what they do when you think that they are being good when left home alone. I always keep my dogs crated when left home unattended, I don't even leave them loose in the house if I am just outside for a while.

 

I had one thing happen that made me realize that it was best to have the dogs crated, came home to the stove turned on, someone put their feet up on the stove, turned the dial which opened the gas up full bore, but not lit. We are lucky that we didn't loose everything.

[Liz P]

I like dogs to be comfortable in their crates lifelong. It makes travel easier and if they ever need to be on crate rest (sick or injured) things go much more smoothly. The crate doesn't have to be in your bedroom and you don't have to leave him in it every single time you go out.

[geonni banner]

I don't own a crate. My dog spent one night in hers and hasn't been in it since. I would have kept it, but really had no place to put it where it wouldn't get in the way.

 

I sent mine to Louisiana with a rescue group during the Katrina debacle. If you don't have a place to store it, consider donating it to a rescue. They always need them.

[Gideon's girl]

I also keep mine used to a crate lifelong, but I know so many people who can't imagine that being part of their life. It is very much a personal choice and part of how we see ourselves. I even built my house knowing I would always have crates by the back door. My good friend has three dogs and constantly babysits three more, with no crates. She thinks chewed up blinds are just part of life. It's a choice we make.

[geonni banner]

Hmmm. I get the feeling there are those who feel that no crate = canine destruction, theft or other mayhem. For some I suppose that's true. But I no longer do rescue, don't have multiple dogs, and don't find it unreasonable that a dog that I feed, vet, groom, entertain and train should respect my property.

 

My dog does no counter-surfing, no getting into the garbage, no hassling the cat, no barking, no chewing on things not hers, etc. Am I alone in this?

 

Seems like I read something recently by Donald McCaig about civilized behavior and mutual respect. This is absolutely essential to me in a relationship with a dog. In such a relationship, what need for a crate in the house?

 

I never did understand the "crate culture." They are great for transporting dogs, separating dogs who have an intransigent hatred for each other, and as an aid to housebreaking, or calming a dog with separation anxiety. But all of these things can be fixed, (except possibly dogs with a deathless hatred for each other - but for me, one of them would have to get rehomed.) I suppose they are useful for dogs who are very shy or fearful. But again, these things can be worked through.

 

Admittedly, I have a negative association with endless stacks of crated dogs in grooming areas at dog shows. They are emblematic of the whole breed-ring culture and people who have no life outside their relationship with a dog or dogs. But for me a healthy, sane adult dog that has to be crated when I'm gone (or not) to keep it out of mischief is a dog in a dysfunctional relationship with its owner.

 

YMMV

[Root Beer]

My dogs, Sammie and Tessa excepted, were all crated when I was not home until about the age of 2. Around that age, I started to test their readiness to be out with the others for short periods of time, and gradually working up to all day.

 

So, it has been about 5 years since I crated any of our dogs on a daily basis. It works out well for us.

 

I do keep crates around, though. Due to space constraints, I do pack the metal crates away except when we are holding a rescue overnight or something. I have portables because I need to crate at trials and competitions. I'm not one to stick my dog in a crate and pay him or her no mind throughout the day, except when performing or running, but it is very helpful to be able to crate while I walk courses, use the restroom, go get a snack, etc. I can get along without crating if I must - I had to with Tessa until recently - but it is much, much, much easier if I can crate.

 

I also bring along a portable crate when traveling. My dogs appreciate having a "home spot" no matter where we go and they take turns sleeping in it. On our last vacation, I happened upon Speedy, Dean, and Tessa all curled up together in the crate at one point. They like to have it.

[Maralynn]

Hmmm. I get the feeling there are those who feel that no crate = canine destruction, theft or other mayhem. For some I suppose that's true. But I no longer do rescue, don't have multiple dogs, and don't find it unreasonable that a dog that I feed, vet, groom, entertain and train should respect my property.

 

My dog does no counter-surfing, no getting into the garbage, no hassling the cat, no barking, no chewing on things not hers, etc. Am I alone in this?

 

My late Missy dog always had a crate because she loved her "den" but was almost never shut in one. She was perfect in the house until she was about 11 y/o then she discovered the joy of counter-surfing and getting into the trash. I have no clue why, but she did. She was about as perfect as a dog could be and respected me to the nth degree. Before this she was a dog that we'd have food out at eye level and she'd leave it alone.

 

So things change sometime.

 

I never did understand the "crate culture." They are great for transporting dogs, separating dogs who have an intransigent hatred for each other, and as an aid to housebreaking, or calming a dog with separation anxiety. But all of these things can be fixed, (except possibly dogs with a deathless hatred for each other - but for me, one of them would have to get rehomed.) I suppose they are useful for dogs who are very shy or fearful. But again, these things can be worked through.

 

I like them because I know that my dogs will stay out of trouble when they're crated. Period. For instance, half the time I live at a farm with my uncle. He leaves stuff out. Leaves a couple bags of paper trash by the woodstove for fire starters. Drives me nuts. But retraining him is a hopeless task... So my dogs get crated whee I go somewhere and I know I won't come back to a mess to clean up.

 

And dogs, no matter how perfect, are still dogs. I've had mine randomly chew on power cords, socks, gloves, shoes, etc, etc. It happens. 98% of the time, they're great - chew only on their things, stay out of trouble and snooze when they're bored. So I'm don't really think that no crate = mayhem (honestly, I think they'd be great for the most part) But I still don't want to come home that 2% of the time to find out that something huge or horrible happened while I was gone.

 

I think it's more of a different strokes for different folks thing. I've always used them, they've always worked great so I see the benefits and have no reason to change.

 

You can find crates on Craigslist all the time. If space is an issue, I see no reason why he needs to be crated at night. But I'd still use one for a while if you're going to be gone for longer than 1/2 hour or so. Then you can just fold it down and store it when you don't need it.

[Beach BCs]

I don't crate my dogs everyday, but every now and again, for various reasons they do need crating. I like to keep them used to it. Tex recently injured himself and because he is very comfortable in his crate, I've been able to bring him to work to keep an eye on him. For a week no one realized he was there. Also, this comes in handy for vacationing/travel. I've been able to take my dogs places that don't normally allow dogs or as many dogs I was bringing, because they are happy and quiet in crates. They are also not damaging the rental property. Do I think they would? Maybe, maybe not. So I would always keep my dogs familiar with being crated.

[bcnewe2]

I have soft sided crates for those that feel the need for a den. I just retired Faye's crate to the basement but was regretting it because Dew taught her to attack the vacuum and when I vac. So I put them both in the crate just for ease of working. But other than that Faye is a good girl and doesn't need one. All my dogs except Raven have used crates off and on their whole life so it would be no problem for them to have to use one now. Small house equals not allot of crate room

 

It was funny the first no crate day for Faye. Faye ate in her kennel, just to keep her safe as a wee one. She couldn't settle down to eat that first day. So we now have a matt where her crate used to be and she eats there.

 

All's happy.

 

It's a personal issue in my mind, you either use them all the time or don't but only you know if your dog is ready to be out of a crate.

 

And in defense of Debbie, my dogs can see out to the barn if they get on the computer desk, If I don't shut the door when I go out with out with only one of them they will be on it in a heart beat. So it's my job to remember to shut the door.

 

But other than that they don't move around that much or at least don't cause mayhem that I can see when I'm gone. Out to the barn is not technically gone hence the desk and window surfing.

[rushdoggie]

I keep crates around and they get sporadic use. Because I have dogs of disparate sizes the small dogs eat inside a crate, and the big dog in the kitchen. If I have a guest who is uncomfortable around dogs I crate them. If I have a reason to get them out from underfoot for safety I pop them in their crates for that time (like when I hauled pieces of furniture in through a propped open door and I couldn't see my own feet and didn't need anyone milling about underfoot to trip on).

 

As a home healthcare worker, I appreciate when I have clients who put even their friendly dogs away during a visit so I don't have to worry about the dog being upset with me for touching the patient or getting in my way.

 

Once my dogs are 2ish usually they are good to be loose in an area (small dogs and big dogs are separated), but I keep my crates around for a lot of uses.

[Gideon's girl]

My JRT is fine loose in my daughters room, but not always in the whole house. My other two are still puppies, but one is starting to be left loose. I recently lost one that had seizure and could never be trusted loose. Before that I had a small dog that was the reason for the term big dog/little dog syndrome. It's been so many years since I've had any hope of being able to leave multiple dogs loose that I barely ever consider it a possibility. I do love the idea, but the reality is not there for me.

[Jexa]

 

And dogs, no matter how perfect, are still dogs. I've had mine randomly chew on power cords, socks, gloves, shoes, etc, etc. It happens. 98% of the time, they're great - chew only on their things, stay out of trouble and snooze when they're bored. So I'm don't really think that no crate = mayhem (honestly, I think they'd be great for the most part) But I still don't want to come home that 2% of the time to find out that something huge or horrible happened while I was gone.

 

 

Yes to this! Even the calmest, most respectful, well-behaved dog is still much like a toddler and can't be trusted 100%. You can only dog-proof your home so much, so I crate my dogs whenever I'm not around just to ensure I don't come home to a tragedy.

[Journey]

Just don't blame Brock, but smack yourself upside the head, if anything destructive does happen. Better safe than sorry.

[geonni banner]

OK. Now I'm feeling like a Martian... Are there no other people reading this thread who completely trust their dog(s) to observe house rules when you're gone? I'm not talking about puppies - at least nothing under 18 mos.

 

But I actually flinched when bcnewe2 said her dogs would get up on her computer desk. No dog I ever owned would any more think of getting up on a table than they would think of eating a bus.

 

I'm not a martinet, my dogs are often spoiled (in some ways). But I can go out the front door leaving a ham sandwich on the table, and when I come back it will still be there. Is this so unheard of? This is how our dogs were when I was growing up. This is what I expect. And yes, I put the training and proofing in to achieve it. But...

 

As for dog-proofing my house... The cat's litter box is more or less out of reach. But that's the only dog-proofing I do. I can't believe I've just lucked into a string of the world's best-behaved dogs... I just taught 'em house manners.

[Liz P]

Some dogs I could trust. I've owned a few who were only in crates for travel or when sick. One dog I could leave loose in my car with bags of groceries full of meat and cheese while I ran into stores to do errands. She never touched them. Other dogs I would trust for short periods of time, but not for 8 hours.

 

That said, dogs are like kids, and sometimes even the best of them will get into trouble. I nearly lost one because my cat jumped on the counter, opened the medicine cabinet door and knocked everything out. The dog thought all those pills were yummy treats (entire bottle of candy coated Advil Cold and Sinus). I was lucky, because on that same day I happened to come back home just a half hour later. Any other day and it would have been 8 hours. He had swallowed a lethal dose of pills, but because I caught him so quickly he survived with no long term effects.

[Debbie Meier]

I used to leave my dogs loose during the day when I went to work, thought that they were fine. They were fine for a long time, but it only took one life threatening event that could have been prevented simply by having the dogs in crates to change the way I thought about it. Ultimately we are responsible for keeping them safe, there are all kinds of hazards in the house that they can accidently get into if I am not here to supervise, so I feel that the best option is crates or kennel runs when I'm not here.

 

A couple of years ago we sold a pup to a real nice man over in Illinois, as the dog apprached a year old he let us know how great she was and how he never has to kennel her when outside. I warned him he should have her kenneled, he said, "but, she never leaves my yard". A few weeks later he sent me an e-mail breaking the news that she had been killed by a car, had venutured down the drive and out into the road, there is no such thing as never.

[Maralynn]

 

Are there no other people reading this thread who completely trust their dog(s) to observe house rules when you're gone? I'm not talking about puppies - at least nothing under 18 mos

 

For me it's not a matter of trust as much as it is a matter of life happens when you least expect it. Like when Kipp randomly grabbed a plugged in lamp cord and started chewing on it. He hasn't done it since and I'm 99.99% sure that he won't do it again. But I can be 100% sure by crating him when I'm gone

 

I'm not a martinet, my dogs are often spoiled (in some ways). But I can go out the front door leaving a ham sandwich on the table, and when I come back it will still be there. Is this so unheard of? This is how our dogs were when I was growing up. This is what I expect. And yes, I put the training and proofing in to achieve it. But...

 

 

 

I could have done that with Missy until she was about 11. People always marveled that she would ignore food that was at nose height. Then I just couldn't anymore. Nothing changed as far as I could see. She just started counter surfing, but only when I was gone. I wasn't going to do anything aversive at that point so I just blocked off the kitchen when I was gone.

 

My current two, well, they like food. They really like food. Like will wait in eager anticipation for fruit and veggies. They leave my things alone for the most part. I can leave socks, yarn, shoes, etc, etc all over the place and they won't be bothered. They have a good "leave it", always wait to be released before eating and I can call them off of food. But they're still dogs and I'm leaving things around to tempt them when I'm not around!

[Laurae]

I trust all my dogs to be loose when I'm not home, though I would never leave Ike and Taz loose together for fear of a fight. That said, I usually crate both Ike and Meg whenever I leave, just out of habit mainly. I do think dogs are generally safer in crates--but not always. I know of a dog that died in a house fire because he was locked in a crate. Nothing is 100% safe in every circumstance.

[Root Beer]

OK. Now I'm feeling like a Martian... Are there no other people reading this thread who completely trust their dog(s) to observe house rules when you're gone? I'm not talking about puppies - at least nothing under 18 mos.

 

Yes, I do. All four loose together, free access to the entire house.

[juliepoudrier]

OK. Now I'm feeling like a Martian... Are there no other people reading this thread who completely trust their dog(s) to observe house rules when you're gone? I'm not talking about puppies - at least nothing under 18 mos.

 

Why yes, I can trust most of my dogs loose in the house. Then again, 9 dogs loose in the house vs. 1 dog loose in the house is not quite the same ballgame. FWIW, when I had just one dog, he was never crated. It wasn't necessary. I didn't routinely crate when I got a second dog either, till the second dog ate my Birkenstocks, my glasses, and my expensive orthotic inserts for my running shoes. Oops, I guess I just didn't train her very well.

 

I'm not a martinet, my dogs are often spoiled (in some ways). But I can go out the front door leaving a ham sandwich on the table, and when I come back it will still be there. Is this so unheard of? This is how our dogs were when I was growing up. This is what I expect. And yes, I put the training and proofing in to achieve it. But...

 

I guess it's a matter of expectations and what's important to you. If I'm going out for some period of time, I don't leave food out and wouldn't do so even if there were no dogs in the house (after all, there's no telling what the cat would do, though perhaps you've trained your cat to leave the ham sandwich alone too). Some things are important to me and some are not. I expect my dogs not to counter surf or get in the trash. But I also don't leave super tempting stuff out within easy reach because I don't see the point (I can leave meat thawing on the sink and not worry about anyone climbing in there to get it, FWIW). It proves nothing to me. That said, if I'm eating something, and I see that the same dam* ewe has gotten through the fence and is heading down the driveway, I can put my plate down on my desk and go take care of that. But I wouldn't leave the plate on my desk and go to the store....

 

As for dog-proofing my house... The cat's litter box is more or less out of reach. But that's the only dog-proofing I do. I can't believe I've just lucked into a string of the world's best-behaved dogs... I just taught 'em house manners.

I think it's a pretty huge leap to assume that those of us who use crates are somehow incapable of teaching our dogs house manners. As I said earlier multiple dogs are a different issue. I've managed as many as 10 (now 9, plus 4 cats, one of whom is ancient) in my house. If you've done that for years without ever using a crate, then I'd be happy to give you credit where it's due.

 

Yes, I've had dogs that don't get along, and no, *for me* the answer isn't just to get rid of one. So they get managed. I happen to have very much liked the dogs who didn't get along. To get rid of one so I wouldn't have to use a crate is unfathomable to me. I have a dog who's epileptic. Seizures *can* trigger other dogs in a pack to attack. If she were an only dog, it wouldn't matter if she had a seizure while I was gone, but right now, she'd have a seizure with multiple other dogs to witness it. That's not about manners, it's about pack dynamics and dog behavior and there's no damn way I'm taking a chance with one dog's life because I think crates are unnecessary or that using them is the mark of poor house manners training.

 

My old girl is a chewer and always has been. She *never* chews anything when I'm home (where she may be in the house while I'm outside doing chores or whatever), but if I leave her loose in the house while I leave the property, she will chew something. Not quite sure how you proof against that, since it happens only when I leave the property. She's also one who didn't get along with one of my other dogs. So for her own safety, she goes in a crate when I leave. As an aged dog, she could also be vulnerable if the other dogs decided to gang up on her. I don't think they would, because she's still top bitch in the house, but again I'm not willing to put her at risk just to prove that I can leave them all out loose.

 

Some dogs don't get crated--I have four or five of the nine who are routinely left loose in the house when I leave. A sixth dog is baby gated into the kitchen/sun porch area of the house, separate from the other dogs. This is because she's trustworthy to be loose, but one of the dogs that stays loose in the other part of the house will sometimes harass her. Rather than trust that *dog behavior* won't take over when I'm not around, I choose to separate her from the dog most likely to bother her. The three who are routinely crated are the epileptic, the youngster, and the old dog.

 

If that makes me a bad trainer in your opinion, so be it.

 

J.

[TrulyReady]

I love my crates, I have three dogs and my older cattle dog stays loose in the house 24/7 for the most part, but travels crated and I crate her after baths etc. My two Border collies stay out while we're at home but are crated for meals or if we will be gone for more then a few hours. They are all well trained dogs with no counter surfing/ destructive behaviors and I can easily leave food on the table and run out and check the mail etc with no issues but three dogs loose in the house worries me, they rough-house sometimes and I worry about them knocking things over by accident and even though they have never fought before there is always a first time for everything. It also cuts down on the amount of dog hair on my furniture by not having all three on the couches all day while I'm gone. I also find that when I crate my dogs they have more drive/energy during training sessions then when they are out all of the time. It's just a personal preference.

[rufftie]

no geonni, you are not crazy. before the border collie i never even owned a crate. for 20 yrs dogs roamed free in my house. the first crate i bought was so i could go to agility trials. everyone learned to sit in the crate queitly at shows pretty quickly. nova, the bc, used a crate consistently for the first year i had her. first when i left the house-trust issues, and at night. now i trust her in the house but i still sometimes crate her at night. i'm a restless sleeper, so if she notices i'm awake at 3 am she'll decide it's great and will circle the bed in anticipation of my getting up and she'll not lie down again. pop! into the crate!

[Mdaniels]

Ben has his crate. I almost never have him in there "crated" with the door shut, but he seems to like be there. He is out and about, usually without an issue, when I am not home (once in awhile, he captures a roll of toilet paper and runs about with it...). Otherwise, I have space for it and he treats it as a quiet place. I've kept it intact for him for that reason--and, in case I do need to crate him, I don't want him to be frightened to go into it.