alligande Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Mum24dog it sounds like a very similar situation to the states, too many dogs in shelters in the southern states, not enough cute dogs in the northern states. I think the problem is most people are unaware of the issues with rescues and do not even think they need to research this. I am now reasonably dog savvy got my first 2 dogs from the local shelter, where everyone I knew had got their rescue dog, at the time I had never heard of breed rescue, or foster homes etc. When I got Brody I was quite prepared to adopt from there again but there was only pit bull types and this is not a breed for us and I found a local rescue. It was only when I got my next dog and spent time on petfinder that I realized what was happening..... And now I regularly meet people out on walks who got their dog of a lorry in a parking lot, and not many who's dogs came from the local shelter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I think the problem is most people are unaware of the issues with rescues and do not even think they need to research this. Very true. I wasn't when I embarked on my current phase of dog owning but I guess a childhood where money was in short supply taught me that it's a waste to buy new when second hand can be just as good so it was a natural move for me to look out the local established rescues when I felt in a position to have a dog again. I was already dog savvy though and knew what to look for, what I wanted in a dog and what I could cope with. It was still a steep learning curve though as I got more than I bargained for with Charlie - bless him. I've collected a dog from a sports field and one from a motorway service station car park, both unseen and both from the same rescue. However, I had had a lot of useful email discussion with the first dog's foster carer and felt that I knew the rescue well by reputation on a rescue form I belong to. There was no pressure for me to take him and we met to see how he and my current dogs got on. (I ended up taking a boxer mix pup on a leg of his journey north as well.) The second dog was an Irish pound pup that I was happy to pick up from the volunteer transporter. However, he had been in foster quarantine in Ireland before being brought over by the rescue and then in foster care with a family here. Actually I didn't know about the Irish bit until after I got him, just the second foster. I wouldn't have collected a dog from a stranger that way though. In my immediate locality there isn't much opportunity for dog dealers. In our small town of around 6,000 inhabitants (cultural attitudes more rural than urban) the majority of dogs seen about are collies, labs, springers, staffies, lurchers and jrs/various terrier types, the most obviously working bred some where along the line - certainly not show type dogs. Very few other pedigrees or lap dogs. Around 50% of the dogs in our agility club when I last counted were rescues with a few more random farm collies or working failures. More pedigrees to be seen in the nearby larger towns though and I couldn't say where they come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 You may have missed my previous point, breeders developed the breed Border Collie; it didn't appear on its own. What you actually said was (my bold) Without responsible breeders you wouldn't have the breed you own. That is a sweeping statement since you have no way of knowing whether even you would label those breeders "responsible" by whatever your personal definition may be. You didn't know them. Or are you saying that the end justifies the means because whatever they did and continue to do you got a dog breed out of it that you love? Are you saying, there is no such thing as a good breeder; we're all just varying degrees of bad (irresponsible). It depends how you view it. I have yet to meet an altruistic breeder. Some produce dogs that there may be an excuse for with the dogs' welfare well cared for but their motive in doing so is still selfish to a greater or lesser degree. "Responsible" is an absolute value judgement and I take more of a relativist approach. Does this mean you think there should be no breeders? Clearly not if you read my other posts. I wouldn't want it to be encouraged unless absolutely necessary though, and each necessity would have to be judged on its own merits. Also we're ignoring the likelihood of an increase in genetic problems if breeding is restricted too far which is where realism may have to override principle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 I'm not anti-breeder. I'm just saying, they're just one cog in a big wheel of human need taking precedence over animal welfare and/or well being. RDM I would agree with this statement, although I would change one letter of it. It is not human "need". It is human greed. In my opinion, that is the crux of the whole issue. D'Elle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 I was talking to a co-worker and he is pretty much a PETA type....he was ranting about breeders etc ...all evil etc...then I told him I was a Border Collie Breeder and I did rescue....I stated that I had rescued probably 3 times the amount of dogs than what I had bred over the years and I usually breed a litter every 2-3 years. And I took back any of my pups, no matter what age. I asked him what a good breeder was and he said there were no good breeders, that all brreders were evil and in for the money....by the end of our two hr long discussion, he conceded that there are some good breeders (who bred to improve the breeed, health checks, take back of pups etc) but as a general rule most of the pups in shelters might be from BYB, and oops litters......however some shelter dogs do come from good breeders. Maybe the owner never told the breeder or in some case some breeders won't take back the pup. either way, the definition of a good breeder as he finally agreed to was should improve the breed, set the breeding to highest working standards (we were talking about Border Collies), health checks as hip/eyes/etc, not only use farm dog working as only means of breeding, good temperement, top in the breeds, take back of the pups, not breed to looks or market demand, not bred for show, not breed all the time, and some more that I forgot.... so in the end he went from all breeders are bad to most breeder are bad....it was a step.....he does agree that he likes my breeding philosphy.... so what is a good breeder and a bad breeder.....this probably will never have a definite answer.......but I know what I look for when I get a pup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 What I'm getting from the last few posts* and several others is that wanting to have a pet dog is "selfishly" putting human need (or human greed) over animal welfare and/or well-being. it's unfortunate that people are selfish enough to want dogs, because that leads to the necessity of breeding them. (Better dead than bred?) There may be some "excuse" for breeding if you treat the dog well, but it's still selfish to breed. There are no altruistic breeders (or at least you can be very involved in dogs for a very long time and never meet one). You may have to rise above "principle" (the principle being "no breeding," I guess) to keep genetic diversity in the breed, but breeding should be done only if "absolutely necessary." So, in response to the OP's question, I would have to conclude that at least disapproval and disdain for breeders is present here to a significant degree, but is expressed much more politely. *ETA: I wrote this before DeltaBluez Tess posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 So, in response to the OP's question, I would have to conclude that at least disapproval and disdain for breeders is present here to a significant degree, but is expressed much more politely. I agree with this assessment. While many/some may not come out and state they feel all breeders are bad, that sentiment is present in many posts. I find this sentiment perplexing in that most people here love this breed which would not be possible if the breed had not been developed by breeders. They love the breed but disapprove of those that developed the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Maybe many of them simply love "their dog" but don't have an interest in the future of the working Border Collie as a continuation of its past as the world's premiere working stockdog? I, for one, celebrate good breeders and good breeding - it is what has produced these dogs (in their purest sense) and what will continue to maintain and improve these dogs (again, in their purest sense). Not overbreeding, not breeding for the pet/sport market, not breeding for "the wrong things", but breeding good, sound, well-tempered, working stockdogs (that also make good active companions and sport dogs for those who will provide suitable homes for those dogs). How many of these same people who seem to disapprove of breeders, are truly interested in and benefitted by the working-bred dog? How many of them rely on their dogs to help manage their livestock? I wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillieNZ Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 I had never really encountered any anti-breeder attitude in real life or online until I read this thread, then the next day at the airport I saw a girl with a shaved head, emo glasses and a shirt that said "Don't breed while shelter dogs DIE". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 I find this sentiment perplexing in that most people here love this breed which would not be possible if the breed had not been developed by breeders. They love the breed but disapprove of those that developed the breed. Is it those who developed the breed and those who maintain it in high standards for work and health that are disapproved of. Or is it the less than concerned for the overall well being of the breed? Just look around at the number of colour 'excessive breeders' you can find on FB or a simple Google search. Look at the number of 'working breeders' who produce several litters a year without health or temperment concerns-those who breed their working stud to any and all bitches that have the $$$ and don't give a rat's a$$ where the pups end up. Perhaps we need be concerned too. Unfortunately other than education I can offer no solutions that are feasible. And rescue isn't always faultless. How many contact breeders when they know they have pups from their breeding to see if the producer either wants the dog back or will at the very least donate to rescue? By contacting breeders then perhaps those who care about the dogs will at least cut down on breedings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 What I'm getting from the last few posts* and several others is that wanting to have a pet dog is "selfishly" putting human need (or human greed) over animal welfare and/or well-being. it's unfortunate that people are selfish enough to want dogs, because that leads to the necessity of breeding them. (Better dead than bred?) There may be some "excuse" for breeding if you treat the dog well, but it's still selfish to breed. There are no altruistic breeders (or at least you can be very involved in dogs for a very long time and never meet one). You may have to rise above "principle" (the principle being "no breeding," I guess) to keep genetic diversity in the breed, but breeding should be done only if "absolutely necessary." So, in response to the OP's question, I would have to conclude that at least disapproval and disdain for breeders is present here to a significant degree, but is expressed much more politely. *ETA: I wrote this before DeltaBluez Tess posted. Just to put in my 2 cents' worth: I personally don't think that wanting to have a "pet" dog (or, as I prefer to say, a companion dog) is in and of itself selfish or anything bad at all. Hey, if people had not wanted to have dogs as companions, working or not, there wouldn't be any dogs at all, because all the curious wolves that came near the human camp would have been killed or frightened away. Nothing wrong with having a companion animal; I wouldn't live without mine. I think the greed reference was referring to people who breed primarily, or solely, for financial gain. I do not personally understand why anyone would want, say, a chihuahua. But people do. I have no problem with someone breeding chihuahuas, if they are doing it properly and responsibly (and the above discussed guidelines for "responsible" seem like a reasonable start to me). Statistically, most breeders of dogs, as we all know, do it primarily to make money. If their number were severely reduced or eliminated there would still be plenty of dogs to go around for people who want companions. Wanting a companion dog is not selfish. Breeding dogs properly is not selfish. Breeding dogs without consideration of their health, well being, future well being, genetic traits and so on, but with only the dollar sign in mind IS greedy and selfish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I agree with Delta Blue's assessment of a good breeder as: "should improve the breed, set the breeding to highest working standards (we were talking about Border Collies), health checks as hip/eyes/etc, not only use farm dog working as only means of breeding, good temperament, top in the breeds, take back of the pups, not breed to looks or market demand, not bred for show, not breed all the time, and some more that I forgot...." I would add, shots, worming, socialization and very limited numbers of litters. And I'll go one further. If the person who meets all these criteria should happen to turn a profit on a litter while they have adhered to these criteria, (not bloody likely!) then they earned it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I agree with Delta Blue's assessment of a good breeder as: "should improve the breed, set the breeding to highest working standards (we were talking about Border Collies), health checks as hip/eyes/etc, not only use farm dog working as only means of breeding, good temperament, top in the breeds, take back of the pups, not breed to looks or market demand, not bred for show, not breed all the time, and some more that I forgot...." I would add, shots, worming, socialization and very limited numbers of litters. And I'll go one further. If the person who meets all these criteria should happen to turn a profit on a litter while they have adhered to these criteria, (not bloody likely!) then they earned it! Delta Blue's is me...aka Diane....I named my kennels after Delta Blues but with a twist on ths spelling so it is DeltaBluez....the Tess part is after my Tess....hence it is DeltaBluez Tess....but as the human part of the equation, I am Diane Pagel. I have yet to make a profit on the litter. After hips/eyes/etc on the parents, I do CERF on the pups, vet checks, shots, high quality food and so forth, I tend to break even. Last litter had an emergency visit and C section, etc so that litter made no money....BUT....I do not do it for the money. I breed to replace a dog that usually is close to retirement. Working ability is at the top of my criteria. I used to get inquiries all the time from sport breeders to bred to my red Border Collie, Roo. I bred him once to Nan. I could have made some serious money using him as a stud for sport folks, but then again, I have my ethics set differently than those folks. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm a pet owner. I have just as much right to own the dog of my choice as anyone else does. I understand all of the over population arguments. Half of my dogs have been rescues or rehomes. Two of my dogs now are rescues. But I don't want someone else telling me that I can't have a dog because I don't live up to their expectations. I just don't. I feel that I have just as much right to buy a good, well bred dog as anyone else does. I pay just as much money as anyone else. Just because I am a pet owner doesn't mean that I should always have to take a rescue or somebody else's cast off dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Delta Blue's is me...aka Diane....I named my kennels after Delta Blues but with a twist on ths spelling so it is DeltaBluez....the Tess part is after my Tess....hence it is DeltaBluez Tess....but as the human part of the equation, I am Diane Pagel. I have yet to make a profit on the litter. After hips/eyes/etc on the parents, I do CERF on the pups, vet checks, shots, high quality food and so forth, I tend to break even. Last litter had an emergency visit and C section, etc so that litter made no money....BUT....I do not do it for the money. I breed to replace a dog that usually is close to retirement. Working ability is at the top of my criteria. I used to get inquiries all the time from sport breeders to bred to my red Border Collie, Roo. I bred him once to Nan. I could have made some serious money using him as a stud for sport folks, but then again, I have my ethics set differently than those folks. Diane Sorry about the name thing - I'm awful at names. Diane it is! I hope you didn't think that I was suggesting you put a litter on the ground with an eye to profit. I just meant that if someone produces a litter that meets the criteria described, there should be no shame if it is sold at a profit. I'm sure that anyone who is both ethical and knowledgeable in their breeding will find a monetarily profitable litter to be a rarity. I have no problem with good people breeding good dogs for good reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 No, I didn't think you were suggesting that about me at all. What I want out of a litter is a good working pup. And good working home for the rest. I usually will keep two out of a litter, train one and sell it and keep the other one. The one we usually keep is the one the spouse likes.... I had a person email me about a breeding. I have a daughter of Bobby Dalziel's Joe (International Winner)....they asked if I would bred to their male. So I wrote them back and asked them, why, proven work history, health checks and why they want to bred my well bred bitch to their male. He was from a ranch about 2 hrs near me and one that I was not familiar wth at all. In a nutshell, "Our male is fantastic, he loves the childrens and plasy frisbee. he is well behaved in the house and keeps the cat on the couch." I asked about his background, health and working history. Again in a nutshell. "He came from a cattle ranch, has papers, he sees just fine so doesn't need his eyes check and jumps high so his hips are fine. The breeder said that the parents has no issues and didn't need to be tested and anyone who wants those tests are waisting (their spelling error not mine) their money as none of their dogs ever had any issues. He jump and twists for the frisbee so has good working ability. He is just over a year old" OK, so I ask what sheepdog trials has he won? I told him that there was NO GUARANTEE that the pups would be exactly like his male. "we went to (DELELED NAME) who tested him on sheep. They said he had bite which cattle lines had. But he is very good wit people and we love his personality" I get these type of email about every six months or so. I wrote them back and told them I do not stud out my females and would be happy to work with them and their dog on sheep. But per my criteria, he would not be breeding material in my book. He wrote to a BC Rescue and asked about an intact females we had on the list. Nevermind, the fact we stated she was to be fixed before she was to be adopted. He offer to take her intact and fix her. He did write to me later and said he had gotten an AKC female and bred her to his male. He also implied that I was a b**** to him about breeding and the person who sold him the AKC female didn't ask all of those unncessary questions. He was also going to bred the female again. I told him good luck with your pups and left it as that. I have my standards and he has his. Not much I can do about his mindset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I am also a pet owner, I have had 4 rescues, 2 from the local shelter and the current 2 from a local breed rescue. But I would get a well bred working bred puppy and see nothing wrong in breeding or buying any dog from a responsible breeder, we have many choices in life and I do it see why we have to have a rescue dog. I do though come from a Yorkshire farming family and have watched sheep dogs work since I was little and understand these amazing dogs do not just happen and require careful development. My limited experience with rescue is that the dogs come into rescue not because of bad breeding but due to choices of the past owner, some understanble like my current foster whos owner felt she was getting to old and was not strong enough to be able to keep them both safe, to the couple that bought in a development that could not take dogs. If you want a silly comparison there are good contractors out there and ones that will take your money and do no work.... No difference to breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 I do though come from a Yorkshire farming family and have watched sheep dogs work since I was little and understand these amazing dogs do not just happen and require careful development. My limited experience with rescue is that the dogs come into rescue not because of bad breeding but due to choices of the past owner Unfortunately in breeding to improve working ability there can be collateral damage in terms of the ones that don't make the grade ending up in rescue. When I got our BC the choice was between him and a very well bred ISDS registered dog that was too hairy for me and didn't seem to have much of a spark. We have 2 dogs in our club that were not wanted by different internationally known breeders and triallers - 1 a brilliant agility dog, the other a nice pet, and we've had others in the past. ISDS registered dogs in rescue do crop up and they must come from somewhere. Tunnel vision about breeding for any particular purpose is going to have a significant reject rate. Is it fair to expect another group of people to mop up the surplus? It's often said on here that sport people should take on working bred dogs that are not wanted to work rather than buy from a sport breeder. It could be viewed as a convenient arrangement for those who want to breed to encourage sport buyers which could allow them to breed more litters in the quest for the ultimate working dog. I'm sure there will be indignant replies from people on here denying that my hypothetical scenario applies to them, but it's a logical result if all sports people were directed to working breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Tunnel vision about breeding for any particular purpose is going to have a significant reject rate. Is it fair to expect another group of people to mop up the surplus? Where do you think that surplus went in the past? They were "put down." Now there is a demand for pets and shepherds would much rather place dogs that don't work out. Sounds like a mutually beneficial relationship to me. This is simply a sign of the change in our cultural beliefs, that all lives have value. I think it's a good thing. If you don't want to help "mop up the surplus" you don't have to. We all choose the battles we think we are capable of fighting (for example, feed one person in need vs trying to feed the world). For me, it's supporting rescue, trying to steer people who want dogs to those rescue groups and trying to educate them so that if they choose a puppy they don't go to a BYB or puppy mill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc friend Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 As an individual very active in bc rescue, I don't "hate" breeders. There are some so-called breeders with irresponsible practices(breeding just pretty dogs w/o regard to health, working traits, etc. and selling the pups to anyone willing to pay their price) that I would love to see go out business. There are also breeders I would buy a pup from in a heartbeat! I have owned both bc's obtained from a specific breeder and dogs through rescue. If I wanted a working, herding dog, I would likely buy from a breeder whose dogs had the traits I wanted. If I wanted an active companion dog, I would go through rescue. I would also look at rescue first for a sports dog, a S&R dog, some types of service dog, or therapy dog. However, many rescuers, including me, fully recognize that we got into breed specific rescue because we love the specific traits of border collies. Without responsible breeders who breed for working dog traits, we would lose the things we love most about our dogs. They might still look like a bc but would they have the same heart, intelligence, bidability, etc.? I think not. So just as people deplore the practices of some so-called rescues but appreciate the effors of rescues which vet, socialize and use reasonable criteria in adopting dogs, I deplore the irresponsible so-called breeders and applaud the breeders who work to maintain the intregrity of our breed and improve the genetics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 However, many rescuers, including me, fully recognize that we got into breed specific rescue because we love the specific traits of border collies. BC friend, I luv ya! Maja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 This is simply a sign of the change in our cultural beliefs, that all lives have value. I think it's a good thing. Can´t really agree on that one, people seem to be very species specific in regard to which lives are valued "alive" and which ones are more valued "over" and on the barbecue, . Here in Iceland there is no rescue organization, no pounds or shelters. Unwanted dogs are usually put down, and when they are lucky the owner tries to find a new home. That is how I got four of the five dogs I have owned in this country. Among them is Gláma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 As an individual very active in bc rescue, I don't "hate" breeders. There are some so-called breeders with irresponsible practices(breeding just pretty dogs w/o regard to health, working traits, etc. and selling the pups to anyone willing to pay their price) that I would love to see go out business. There are also breeders I would buy a pup from in a heartbeat! I have owned both bc's obtained from a specific breeder and dogs through rescue. If I wanted a working, herding dog, I would likely buy from a breeder whose dogs had the traits I wanted. If I wanted an active companion dog, I would go through rescue. I would also look at rescue first for a sports dog, a S&R dog, some types of service dog, or therapy dog. However, many rescuers, including me, fully recognize that we got into breed specific rescue because we love the specific traits of border collies. Without responsible breeders who breed for working dog traits, we would lose the things we love most about our dogs. They might still look like a bc but would they have the same heart, intelligence, bidability, etc.? I think not. So just as people deplore the practices of some so-called rescues but appreciate the effors of rescues which vet, socialize and use reasonable criteria in adopting dogs, I deplore the irresponsible so-called breeders and applaud the breeders who work to maintain the intregrity of our breed and improve the genetics. Amen. And I know SO many people involved in BC rescue that feel the same way, despite some conclusions drawn up thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Can´t really agree on that one, people seem to be very species specific in regard to which lives are valued "alive" and which ones are more valued "over" and on the barbecue Just listening/reading to an interesting book about that subject. Some we love, some we hate and some we eat. By Hal Herzog. It's kept my interest and made me think allot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 There are, of course, differences in culture based on your location. I was commenting on the shift in culture mainly in the USA and parts of the UK where shepherds are becoming more likely to place an unwanted dog rather than dispose of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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