a combination flock

[KrisK]

Here's is my sheep dilemma - I'm the person who will need to handle, care for and do all the chores for sheep. I would like a small breed of sheep, hardy and with lovely fleece...therefore, I'm leaning heavily toward Shetlands.

 

Now, I understand that Shetlands may not be the best sheep for working/teaching Flint especially with me being a beginner.

 

So, would it make sense to find 3-4 dogbroke sheep to mix in with the Shetlands? Can they all live happily together or would I need to have separate areas for them?

[TEC]

...So, would it make sense to find 3-4 dogbroke sheep to mix in with the Shetlands? Can they all live happily together or would I need to have separate areas for them?

 

In my experience it's hard to predict how mixing another breed of dog-broke sheep into flock will influence the others. Did I understand correctly, you are considering putting 4-5 dog broke sheep of another breed in with your Shetlands? Might work.

 

I had a small training flock of Dorper x Katahdin and wool sheep. A lady I trained with, added a few Soay. The Dorper x Katahdin and woolies flocked/worked nicely, but the Soay had completely different flight zones than the others, so they always got left behind for my practice sessions. Contending with Soay wasn't fair to my dog, nor me for that matter. Perhaps that's an extreme example. Soay are a beautiful hardy primitive breed, but also fairly well know for low flocking instinct. Others may cite better experiences with Soay.

 

A packet of of 3-7 sheep tends to have one who goes to front and takes lead. It often is steadier than others. Sometimes toward the rear or center of group is one who is constantly vigilant, always on the alert, who lets the others know of real or imagined danger. In a sense, a packet can have two or more leaders, for different purposes. Therefore, IMO it becomes difficult to predict how adding a few dog-broke sheep into Shetlands will affect dynamics of flock. Will minority sheep assume leader roles, or simply follow the others? Hard to tell.

 

To achieve goal of starting your dog, perhaps consider keeping a few dog-broke sheep separate from the others for a while, until your dog is more experienced. Depending on number of fenced fields and small areas you have, that option may be nearly impossible. Have found that keeping separate groups is more effort to feed, care-for, and manage pasture, but do-able if necessary.

 

A few thoughts to get you started on topic. Certain there will be lots of other good ideas. I don't know Shetland Breed. Are they overly heavy or too flighty for beginning dog? -- Best wishes, TEC

[Liz P]

My experience has been that the Shetlands will run for the hills, hide, split and otherwise try to cause trouble while the rest of the flock comes in. It doesn't matter if there is a single Shetland and a flock of 50 cooperative sheep, they still do it.

[bcnewe2]

So Sounds like it'd be easier to separate your training sheep when it was time to train if the Shetlands are running for the hills.

I hate management that has me keeping sheep apart permantly. There's always risk that they will get together and you have to be able to manage that. As long as it's not imparitive that they stay seprate (rams of the wrong breed) then I think it's doable.

 

I look forward to training on any type sheep after my dog has come along in his training. They should be able to handle any sort of livestock so I look forward to any challenge but not for a young dog that isn't down the road a bit.

 

How about a hair breed with a few fiber sheep that you love thrown in. How many fleeces do you need? Maybe it was just me but I found hair sheep much easier for a beginner than most wool breeds. They seem heartier and needed less care. Didn't usually have issues when worked by dogs. As you get to know sheep then wool breeds make more since.

 

I do most of the sheep chores round here alone. It's nice to have help when worming or something like that but I get by alone even with worming using 2 dogs. Having my son around is like icing on the cake. There's also friends who live semi close always willing to come help with sheep chores since it's a chance to work a dog or 2.

 

Just some ideas....

[airbear]

If you get hair sheep, there's a danger that their hair can contaminate the fleeces from your Shetlands (I'm assuming you want to use the fleeces from your Shetlands).

[NorthfieldNick]

Smaller seep are harder to handle than mid-size sheep. Farther to bend down when shearing, doing feet, etc. I'm not big- 5'4", 135 Lbs- and I have an easier time with my NCC ewes (160-180 Lbs) than I do with the Icelandic cross ewes (100-120 lbs). My Cotswolds (ewes 180-210 lbs, my big ram 300+ lbs- yes, weighed on a livestock scale) were the easiest sheep I've ever dealt with. Think draft horses- gentle giants.

 

I don't have much experience with Shetlands, but the few I "worked" were not fun. Escape artists, too. The Icelandics, while independent thinkers, stick with the flock & work just fine. Of course, everyone says NCC are light & crazy, and mine are very well-mannered & not at all prone to craziness.

 

Talk to Tea. Her flock is a mix of mostly primitive breeds that should be hell on a dog, but they're anything but. They get worked every single day, which I'm sure helps.

 

For training a young dog, get some older dog-broke sheep. My friend's Dorpers are about the heaviest sheep I've ever worked. Romneys & Coopworths were bred to be easy sheep. I started my young dog on old Coop ewes.

[bcnewe2]

If you get hair sheep, there's a danger that their hair can contaminate the fleeces from your Shetlands (I'm assuming you want to use the fleeces from your Shetlands).

Do you mean by cross breeding or actual hair getting in the wool? That's a new one on me but I guess it could happen. I would think contamination from hay or other plant matter would be much more a worry.

Now if you're talking about cross breeding. Then yes I could see that. But then you could always sell the crosses that came of that.

I have mixed NCC's with Katadhins. Liked that cross even kept a few and had them sheared (threw away the fiber) and last time I had Dorpers mixed with BF Suffolk. Loved that cross for meat sales. fast growers and easy to work. No parasite issues either.

[Maralynn]

Hey Kris, have you worked with Shetland wool? do you enjoy it? what other breeds have you compared it too? Personally, I haven't been too impressed with Shetland wool. Lots of natural colors, but besides that I personally don't find it to be anything special.

 

Personally I like long wool or fine wool crosses for fleece.

[airbear]

Do you mean by cross breeding or actual hair getting in the wool?

I was referring to the actual fleece getting contaminated with hair from the hair sheep. A spinner was teling me that having hair from a hair sheep in her fleeces makes the fleeces worthless.

 

Link from Sheep Industry News

[bcnewe2]

interesting. Since I don't spin I wouldn't know but I never noticed that hair got in my NNC's but maybe that's cause I wasn't looking to close!

[bcnewe2]

My take on the article is more from the standpoint of shearing and then the accidental contamination of wool and hair that have been sheared together.

I used to take my NNC/Katadhins that didnt' shed to a friends for shearing but we did it after all his wool was bagged up. I'm sure if mixed in would ruin the quailty of wool.

 

But I've never really seen any hair get in the wool by just being on the same prop. Maybe in tight feed lot situations.

 

Learn something new everday....thanks!

[KrisK]

Thanks everyone - your comments have been very helpful. Ben, that was most insightful! I'm around the same height...but we won't discuss my weight or my age...which is likely older than you be a few years I was thinking in terms of the Shetland's weight and size being easier to handle not more difficult. Thanks for the tip on contacting Tea!

 

Marylynn - I haven't done any spinning yet - that's coming up this winter. However, I do know that I'm able to wear mitts, etc made from Shetland wool without wanting to scratch myself to pieces which is what has drawn me in that direction.

 

One of the other reasons I'm considering Shetlands is because they available nearby..as well as some Jacobs. I also like the fact that they are a primitive breed and thus hardy in our conditions. Maybe I'll look into some Icelandics which might meet both my needs.

[Smalahundur]

Maybe I'll look into some Icelandics which might meet both my needs.

I second that, ( btw I am not hindered by any experience with other breeds )

[bcnewe2]

Marylynn - I haven't done any spinning yet - that's coming up this winter. However, I do know that I'm able to wear mitts, etc made from Shetland wool without wanting to scratch myself to pieces which is what has drawn me in that direction.

 

 

A good friend of mine who is a spinner and a knitter says it's the guard hairs that make us itch. I wear socks that she knits and I'm and itchy girl. They never itch me. Love them!

[NorthfieldNick]

Kris, I probably shouldn't tell you this, but I have 17 days left as one of those "under 30" handlers being discussed in another thread...

 

Also, Kristen, some of my best ewes have been NCC x Katahdin. Useless wool, but they raise awesome lambs! We called them "Lopez Mules." I've only got one left, and she's old, but I have a bunch of those ewe's 3/4 NCC daughters.

[Maralynn]

Marylynn - I haven't done any spinning yet - that's coming up this winter. However, I do know that I'm able to wear mitts, etc made from Shetland wool without wanting to scratch myself to pieces which is what has drawn me in that direction.

 

Something to be aware of with the Shetlands is that they come with 3 different types. Some are fine, some are much more course. The classic Shetlands have varying degrees of fine/course on each sheep. Parts of it are fine/soft, other parts are rather course so you'd need to be aware of that while prepping the fleece. And I too would really suggest Icelandics over Shetlands. Shetlands are tiny and crazy and don't really behave like sheep...

 

Here are a few breeds that you may want to check out wool-wise Merino, Ramboulliet, Corridale, Cormo, Blue Faced Leicester. Also wool type can vary quite a bit within a breed - Some Romneys have beautiful silky fleece (and some have course itchy wool). So before you buy sheep from anyone, get 8-12 ounces of roving to spin up to see if you like working with the wool that those particular sheep grow.

 

Here is a site that discusses a few different breeds by wool type

http://www.ncwga.org/breed.html

 

Also commercially prepared wool tends to be itchier than that prepped by hand or small fiber mills because of the harsh treatment of the fiber when prepping it on a commercial scale.

 

Jacobs are cool looking, but unless you're particularly drawn to then, I'd suggest a different breed. with such crazy horns, the sheep can be a bit more difficult to deal with. Horns get caught in things and you get hurt by them if a sheep swings it's head the wrong way when you're you're doing routine sheep maintenance.

[Cynthia P]

The concern you have about managing them physically is a good one, but a crazy small sheep will be more difficult to manage than a tamer medium size sheep. Tunis might be another good option, nice wool, medium size, pretty to look at. Fairly hardy

 

Cynthia

[KrisK]

Thanks for those links Mara. I will look into those breeds of sheep as well as the Tunis. I'm not in a major rush since I need to have some permanent fencing in place which likely won't be until next spring.

Availability will definitely be a consideration...not many sheep in my neck of the woods yet.

[Carson Crazies]

I was going to suggest tunis. The thing that I have learned in the past is this - if you have a mixed flock and you're planning to sort off sheep, you're going to need to be able to get them in to do so. If your dog is untrained then you need to think long and hard about "How will I get the sheep in, and then how will I sort them?".

 

Once upon a time when Nick was a puppy, I learned this lesson. Back when my (nicely dog broke puppy sheep) hair sheep were mixed in with Julie Poudrier's (not so broke) wool sheep I had a lot of trouble getting them in to be sorted, and then getting them sorted once I had them caught up. June never would get enough training on her to handle Julie's flock that at the time also included some wily Scottish Blackface. I wound up borrowing Julie's retired Open dog, Jill, to help me when Julie wasn't around.

 

So that's another thing to consider. If you go with both, I would probably keep my puppy sheep separate from my not-so-puppy sheep until my dog had enough training to be able to handle getting them in and sorted. Unless you can get them in and sort without a dog.

 

eta - I see this has already been mentioned.

[KrisK]

thanks again for all the thoughtful posts. I've been looking for Icelandics...absolutely not readily available in N. Ontario but a good number of flocks in Michigan. So I will need to look into the 'cross-border' shopping issues I am definitely drawn to the 'primitive' breeds for some reason. Love the Icelandics, Finns, Shetlands....

Haven't seen much available for Tunis up here either but still looking.

It seems I should focus on a few dogbroke sheep first. The challenge will be to find them and transport them here!

[Liz P]

I am totally in love with Gotlands. I came so close to getting some this past spring, but there were not enough lambs born so she didn't have any extras for sale.

[KrisK]

Liz...they are gorgeous!! .... Probably another breed not easy to find in my neck of the woods

[Liz P]

I never thought I would find any either, but I ran into a breeder at the New York Sheep and Wool Festival. You might be surprised what is out there.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Shepherds,

 

As I was starting with sheep, 40 years ago Southdowns were popular because they were small and most smallholder shepherds were women. TSouthdowns were so small, however, that most men with bigger hands had difficulty pulling lambs and yes, sooner or later, you will need to get your hands in there and untangle/pull lambs.

 

I wold avoid the rare breeds in a first flock, before you know what questions to ask. You can migrate to them later if your interest continues. Until then, resources for rare breeds are fewer and often know nothing at all about sheepdogs. I'd look hard at local sheep. Whoever you buy from will be nearby for emergencies and inclined to help.

 

Donald McCaig

[Tea]

Boy, I agree with Sheepdogging Geezer.

 

I run a mixed flock and for the most part they work fine. Except you must realize the these are all crossbred and %'s rather than pure what have you. These are what I call the island mules. The scotties will look for holes in your fences and check electric wire.Shetlands can be hard to work.need a dog that understands distance. Icelandic ram and ewes can be onery. Most of mine are crossed with dairy, who work very well, but can be very delicate. I have a pure BFL flock, and although beautiful wool you must watch them as they are not strong. And I use them to cross.

I have a flock of pure katahdins- They shed, I have never experienced their hair getting in the wool. And I do all my own wool from shearing to clothing.

 

I have experimented in crossbreeding them and it takes about 3 or 4 generations to loose the hair.

I have had barbadoes, they were very flighty and silly in my opinion. I rely on my sheep having good sense as that helps me travel the long trails. They were also rather small, as are shetlands.

 

I have had dorsets, although now just % they were from this area and pretty tolerant of parasite load, however couldn't walk a mile and had bad feet. They milked VERY well the best I crossed.

 

St Croix I've had were not so tolerant of the tremendous worm load on this island. But milked well.

 

I would just go to shepherds in your area, decide what you want most- milk, meat, wool.

 

And pick up some older ewes.