Kelleybean Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 My BC Asa has been trained in 2on 2off contacts, but in trials, she flies off the A-frame and dogwalk totally missing the zone more often than not. So, my question, is should I re-train the stopped contact or switch to a running contact? If sticking with the stopped contact, how do you make that transition from class to trial, obviously she thinks that speed is crucial and stopping is stupid! Opinions? Suggestions for training methods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 My BC Asa has been trained in 2on 2off contacts, but in trials, she flies off the A-frame and dogwalk totally missing the zone more often than not. Before changing contacts, or retraining, I would want to take a closer look at what might be happening here. Do you have a video of this from a trial? If so, maybe you could have someone take video of you and Asa doing this in training. Then you could compare to see if your body language is different, or something else about the picture is different. It may all seem the same to you, but there could be something that you are doing that might be presenting a different picture to her in trials. If it turns out that there really is no difference, then retraining might be the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 How long have you been trialing? What you describe is a very common behavior with driven dogs. I can think of a few reasons why she is jumping. Her adrenaline is really pumping at a trial so she wants to go faster - which can result in trained behaviors breaking down. Her 2O2O has not been completely proofed in training. Your body language and/or voice are different at a trial, and she is cueing off of that. If you want to change to a running contact, be prepared for A LOT of work on retraining and the general consensus is that a dog retrained from 2O2O to running is much less consistent in hitting the contact zone. If you want to keep the 2O2O, I would work on extensive proofing of the 2O2O behavior so that the trial atmosphere does not affect it. Good Luck, Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Your dog does not understand the criteria. Switching to a running contact will not make your life easier. Making sure your dog understands your criteria will. It's a very common newbie mistake. Watch how many hold to criteria at trials -- maybe 5%. It sure is hard to sacrifice a Q when your dog technically hit the yellow on their way through blowing your contact criteria. In addition to sticking to your criteria, general impulse control exercises never hurt this sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelleybean Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 How long have you been trialing? What you describe is a very common behavior with driven dogs. I can think of a few reasons why she is jumping. Her adrenaline is really pumping at a trial so she wants to go faster - which can result in trained behaviors breaking down. Her 2O2O has not been completely proofed in training. Your body language and/or voice are different at a trial, and she is cueing off of that. Well, I think this is a large part of our problem. We've been training for 2 yrs and trailing for 1. We compete in AKC and have our OA and OAJ titles. We are currently competing in Ex A in both standard and jumpers. When at trial, I always feel a bit nauseous and know that my adrenaline is pumping. I was just wondering if I'll ever be able to get her to stick the contacts given my nervous state at trials. When we're in class, it isn't a problem, just at trials. (when it really counts!) Kelley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I bet your nerves, and the trial environment are most of the problem. Let's face it, our dogs know when it's class and when it's not. I am no expert, our contacts are nothing to write home about, but do you think a few trials of not worrying about Qing and just working contacts is doable? I mean really babysit them and make sure she gives you what you want? Be sure to highly praise her so she knows she's doing it right. Another thought is to eat some entries, and take her out if she blows a contact. But, I only recommend this with two stipulations: 1) she absolutely, positively knows the criteria you want and 2) she's not too soft that taking her out would be bad for her confidence. Also, do you have any NADAC trials around? You can train in the ring in NADAC. It won't be a Q, but who cares? If she blows a contact, you can put her back on and get the stop, and then go on. Somebody who does NADAC may want to make sure I'm right about that, but at least it's more like practice in a trial environment, and she'll get the message you expect stops regardless of where you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Your dog does not understand the criteria. Switching to a running contact will not make your life easier. I agree with this. The criteria for a RC are even harder to instil in a dog than 2o2o. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I mean really babysit them and make sure she gives you what you want? But if you babysit contacts you become part of the equation and the risk of creating a creeper is very real. For a dog to really understand the contact criteria the handler needs to fade themself from the picture as quickly as possible. Contacts shouldn't be about where the handler is and what she is doing. I am with those who advise throwing runs where the criteria are not met though, and I'd say the same for broken waits. I know it's difficult to do when entry fees are so expensive but it will be worth it in the long run. You'll find top handlers who reinforce their contacts more than they push them throughout their dog's career. If she blows a contact, you can put her back on and get the stop It's common but I've never seen the point myself as it doesn't really help a dog understand the whole exercise. If you want to reinforce the stop it can be done without putting the dog back on and getting eliminated by making the dog lie down and wait to be released. I'd advise that even if a dog that has been taught a 2o2o gets the contact but doesn't wait for the release cue. I've seen so many dogs that seem to think that they are supposed to jump off and be put back on that they will put themselves back. Be careful of creating a chain of behaviour you don't want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 What Karissa said. You have to maintain your criteria in and out of the trial field. This may mean sacrificing some Q's, but if you're mising contacts, you're sacrificing Q's already. Take it from one who speaks from experience. This has been an ongoing stuggle with my dog, and it's because he knew that I wouldn't hold him accountable at trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 But if you babysit contacts you become part of the equation and the risk of creating a creeper is very real. For a dog to really understand the contact criteria the handler needs to fade themself from the picture as quickly as possible. Contacts shouldn't be about where the handler is and what she is doing. I am with those who advise throwing runs where the criteria are not met though, and I'd say the same for broken waits. I know it's difficult to do when entry fees are so expensive but it will be worth it in the long run. You'll find top handlers who reinforce their contacts more than they push them throughout their dog's career. It's common but I've never seen the point myself as it doesn't really help a dog understand the whole exercise. If you want to reinforce the stop it can be done without putting the dog back on and getting eliminated by making the dog lie down and wait to be released. I'd advise that even if a dog that has been taught a 2o2o gets the contact but doesn't wait for the release cue. I've seen so many dogs that seem to think that they are supposed to jump off and be put back on that they will put themselves back. Be careful of creating a chain of behaviour you don't want. As I said, obviously I'm no expert, just throwing ideas out there. However, I wasn't clear on that last point. I did not mean put the dog back on at the 2o2o spot. I have also seen dogs back up into the contact, resulting in an off course, so that's not something I do or recommend. I meant re-do the entire obstacle and get the criteria the handler wants. As I said, I think that is allowed in an NQ NADAC run, but maybe a NADAC person can correct me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelleybean Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm in GA and there are no NADAC trials here. If you put a dog back on in a 2o2o in AKC you are whistled off the course. (Believe me--I know!!) I don't know for sure, but I think the same applies if you re-do the contact obstacle. I don't know about USDAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 You can't put a dog back on a contact obstacle in USDAA, either. But, you can still mark the transgression. Depending on how soft your dog is, start with a verbal. My go to verbal is "no sir." I will also stop and give my dog a dirty look. If that doesn't work, you might lie your dog down for blowing the contact. If that doesn't work, you stop your dog and take her out of the ring. Miss a contact, you don't get to play. A friend of mine was having trouble with her start line stays last year. So, she finally picked a trial to fix it. She took her dog out of the ring twice during that trial. Since then, her dog has been holding her start line stays. It just took one trial to fix it. I disagreed with people for years about this. I really didn't think my dog would understand that he was being "punished" for missing a contact. That was, until I tried it. We are still a work in progress, mainly because it's so hard to give up a run to reinforce contact criteria. But, sometimes you just gotta suck it up for the sake of the greater good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 As I said, obviously I'm no expert, just throwing ideas out there. However, I wasn't clear on that last point. I did not mean put the dog back on at the 2o2o spot. I have also seen dogs back up into the contact, resulting in an off course, so that's not something I do or recommend. I meant re-do the entire obstacle and get the criteria the handler wants. As I said, I think that is allowed in an NQ NADAC run, but maybe a NADAC person can correct me. Thanks for explaining. Here in the UK it would be considered polite to ask the judge if you may put the dog back on or over the contact as there is no right to do it, at least in KC competition, which is by far the most popular. Most will say yes, a few no, but most would expect you to leave the ring when you have done it. The reason for not continuing is purely pressure of time. A judge could have up to 450 dogs through their ring in a day and even a few seconds wasted per dog adds up over a very long day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 AAC (Canada) allows training in the ring, but you will be blown off when you reach open standard course time. It's very helpful for those dogs who like to push boundaries. <glares meaningfully at Wick> To the OP, I've not seen many people who have put running contacts on a dog who originally had 2o/2o. Running contacts are probably harder to train than 2o/2o b/c the criteria is much less concrete, so if you're having trouble maintaining 2o/2o in a trial because your dog is too high, then good luck with running LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 A lot of those dogs putting their back feet back on are just doing what they've been taught. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Oh, well, if there's no NADAC, it's a moot point. Not the best idea I've had all day, anyway. And yes, I'm aware of the faults in AKC & USDAA. Back to the question, Kristi is spot on. If your dog is blowing contacts with 2o2o, I don't think running is the answer. Best of luck, whatever you decide to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickif Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 The first thing to know is if your dog truly understands her job, that the 2o2o has been thoroughly proofed and that you are confident she knows what she is suppose to do, in any environment. If so, then just a verbal can be helpful if she does not perform said behavior. Your timing has to be perfect, the minute she bails. If she has already taken another obstacle, it's too late. I say "HEY", and with that my dog will stop and look at me. I will pause with eye contact and then resume the run, but this is something we have practiced and so they do understand why the "hey", and much more often then not they are very aware of their end behavior next time around. I do not consider myself to have contact issues but occasionally my girl will begin to think she can stop after the end which could quickly become a no longer stopped altogether... I have run in NADAC and "trained" in the ring. I no longer do this for contacts. I now believe that all it is teaching the dog is that it is ok to not stop 'cuz we can just go back and do it again. I will now take advantage of Fun Matches if I need to train in a more trial like environment (even though am sure they know the difference)... Regarding trial nerves, very hard to replicate this in any other environment but things can be done to add more stress to both the handler and the dog in practice. What is her favorite obstacle? Does she love tunnels? If so, put one (or whatever she loves) 10' feet out in front of the contact, run a fast line to the contact and haul ass, will she stop? I have set up 'competition" in class. Timing the runs, prize is a free private, or class, or whatever... Now, everyone knows the difference but it does add a twist. Another thing that seems to rattle nerves a bit is to have everyone clap, cheer, move about, have a few in the "ring" moving around during your run, running a ways behind you, just make sure they don't get in the way . Make it a point to run really hard in practice. I find, for myself as well as others that most run faster and more hectic in trial then they do at practice. Voices become harsher and louder, arms flail a bit more . Also, having distractions on the field (toys, treats, etc.), will she stop and stay 'til released if there is a piece of cheese in front of her? And then, dogs figure out really quick that they can do one thing in practice and a whole 'nother thing in a trial environment... I agree with above, if she is bailing from high with a stopped, wow, training a running may be a real challenge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 I also agree make sure she understands the criteria, my older dog did not understand what I wanted due to me not understanding what I wanted when we started out, last summer I retrained him to a stop with 4 paws on the ground as he has mild hip displaysia and I thought he might be uncomfortable. As he is not a serious competitor I only went so far with this but it has worked and he now comes all the way to the bottom. My young dog I retrained when I realized that he was creeping, so we went back to basics and he normally has great contacts. I did take advantage of NADACs training policies and I really think they helped with contacts and his great start line. I never put him just back into position, we always rerun the obstacle. Now we have to focus on contacts again as I have realized that the steep Aframe angle in USDAA might be the cause of his leap offs in that venue as the angle is much harder, and were we train focuses uses AKC height so for the next few weeks we will be working on that, and causing trouble by raising the Aframe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Regarding trial nerves, very hard to replicate this in any other environment but things can be done to add more stress to both the handler and the dog in practice. What I had to do to finally get this through Luke's head was to find something that would get him in that crazy insane trial state. Food, which is what 99% of the people in our classes used as reward, just didn't do it. He loves food and he loves agility, but there was no way to simulate the jazzed up energy of a trial using food. So instead I started retraining his contacts using his absolute favorite toys in the world. That would be his rubber bouncy ball or a frisbee. He gets so wound up over these toys that he'll just shake in anticipation. He quickly learned that no stop = no toy. Once I got that through his head at home it's amazing how quickly and easily that transitioned to trials. I can't even recall the last time he blew through a dog walk contact at a trial, and we haven't schooled contacts in a very long while. I used the same method when I decided to put a stop on his a-frame and he picked it up in one session. So yes, in order to properly proof a stop in training you have to find SOME way to get their energy level up to where it is at trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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