terrecar Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Well, it is outdoors (hence, weather permitting!), but different event, unfortunately. This will be a CPE event in Knoxville. Oh, right. I missed the "weather permitting" part, didn't I? Thanks for pointing out my shoddy reading comprehension... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Oh, right. I missed the "weather permitting" part, didn't I? Thanks for pointing out my shoddy reading comprehension... Hahahah!! I thought you totally picked up on it and that was why you asked!! Funny sometimes what we "hear" on here!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Hahahah!! I thought you totally picked up on it and that was why you asked!! Funny sometimes what we "hear" on here!! Heck no. Totally missed it. Good thing you teach and I don't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Heck no. Totally missed it. Good thing you teach and I don't! Actually, my "weather permitting" comment wasn't technically enough to definitively indicate that the trial is outdoors. Last year I missed that exact same event due to a freak major snowstorm. Even if it had been indoors, I would not have gotten down there because the roads were horrible up my way. I had forgotten about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Dear Doggers, I've been to agility trials here and the UK and am more likely to suggest new Border Collie owners try agility than stockwork (availability). My interest is presently narrow. I wish to know whether an objective observer would conclude that the dogs at an agility trial are better or worse mannered, taken as a group, good with bad, than those at a sheepdog trial judged the same way. My impression from a lot of experience with sheepdogs and a little with agility is that the sheepdogs have it paws down. Neither group is likely to change their ways because of anything I might decide. I'm not out to convince agility handlers to train with corrections nor sheepdog handlers to train with treats. I'm curious because the two human groups believe very different things about how dogs learn and both train dogs to difficult achievements. It is possible, and more than a little likely, that our dogs - who do want to learn - will learn despite our training epistemologies, but if there is a difference in efficacy, I intend to see it There are two trials near Gordonsville Virginia (relatively northern part of the state) Montpelier Oct 7&8 and Edgeworth the following weekend. Montpelier has several thousand spectators, Edgeworth is the bigger more interesting trial. Since I'm presently running only one dog I should be able to get up to Maryland for an agility trial one of those weekends. I hope Kristine can help me evaluate and compare. By the way, I don't think dogs are less mannerly because they're onleash. That's how they've been trained and more importantly, onleash is the owner's default. "What would you do if your off leash dog smelled a bitch in heat across a busy street . . ?" And menaces too numerous to mention . . . Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I've been to agility trials here and the UK I'd be interested to know which in the UK and when. Iirc the last time this subject arose you only mentioned that you had been to Crufts once and Crufts is hardly a typical agility show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 and onleash can be showing respect for other people's property-I hate it when dogs are allowed to urinate on stull and hump other dogs regardless of the venue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 There are two trials near Gordonsville Virginia (relatively northern part of the state) Montpelier Oct 7&8 and Edgeworth the following weekend. Montpelier has several thousand spectators, Edgeworth is the bigger more interesting trial. Since I'm presently running only one dog I should be able to get up to Maryland for an agility trial one of those weekends. I hope Kristine can help me evaluate and compare. If I'm not trialing that weekend, I will check with my husband about possibly attending, since northern Virginia is not too terribly far away. Also, if she is available and able at that point, I may have an observer (not a member of this board, but someone who would be willing to report here) who could attend both events. I still say, however, that such an observation proves nothing since all things are not equal. A couple of years ago, I observed a dog at a sporting event who was extremely rude on the sidelines. Although it is a sport where reinforcement based training is widely accepted, I happened to know that this particular dog was trained with corrections because I knew the handler and saw first hand how the dog was trained. I'd be willing to wager that if that handler had abandoned the corrections and learned to use reinforcement properly, he would have had a very different dog. This dog was more than capable of learning to behave appropriately on the sidelines - she was not a dog with a temperament issue. And if one saw the dog at this event and presumed that reinforcement based training had failed simply because the dog was present at this event . . . well, that was simply not the case. As I said above, there is a very vast variety in the training approaches that sport trainers employ. If an unmannerly dog is observed at a sport event, what is proven about how that dog learns if the observer is unaware of the training history of the dog? What has the handler tried? What exactly has failed, and why? Has anything actually failed, or has an appropriate approach not even been tried? Is there a temperament issue in play? How long has the handler had the dog? What is the handler's skill level with the training method in question? Without the answers to those questions, really nothing is known that is relevant to the topic of how dogs learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 September 29 or October 27 for Agility. Both are Saturdays, which is my preference so I can mentally prep for my school week on Sunday. But, I will most likely Day of Show, and won't go down if there is steady rain. I don't run Dean on soaking wet grass since his non-Agility related hip injury on wet grass last summer. I will go if the forecast is for (non-thunder) showers. In the event that there is heavy rain on either Saturday, but the weather is predicted to be nice on Sunday, I would go Sunday instead. Sorry I can't commit beyond that. It is an hour and a half away and I have to put my dog's well being ahead of everything. I want him to have a long career, and as much of a pain free life as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I participate in both sports, and in my opinion, the dogs in agility are not remarkably more ill-behaved than those at a herding trial. Two weeks ago, I participated in an Open field trial, then the Calgary Stampede arena trial. This weekend, I participated in a local agility trial. My dog, Rex, competed in both. When we go to the post, Rex is off-leash, and slinking beside me. When we go to the line in agility, Rex is wearing a fancy harness and he's bouncing and barking. To me, it's just a different state of mind. For herding, he is dead serious, for agility, he's having fun. Same dog, just a different venue. At the herding trial, my dogs spend their non-competition time either chained to my truck, or (in the case of one very spoiled Lou), sitting in the handlers tent. At the agility trial, they sit in soft crates/ex-pens. The difference is, I don't have my truck on the agility field, so tethering them to the truck is not practical. In both scenarios, I expect them to be quiet. At herding trials, they are off-leash all the time. At agility trials, I have them on-leash because those are the rules and I am a law and order kind of gal. The dogs at herding trials do bark, and it can be unpleasant when one flies out from under a truck and is restrained only by the length of his chain. Some agility dogs bark/lunge when you walk by their crates, and it's equally unsettling. At herding trials, anything left on the ground, including chairs, crooks, and bags, can and will be pissed on. This doesn't happen at agility trials because people don't let their dogs piss on things. My neutered dog has been mounted at set-out (he was the set-out dog) and that handler accused me of setting with a bitch in heat. None of my neutered animals has ever been mounted at an agility trial. Those are my observations, based on my 6 years of sheepdog trialing and 10 years of agility trialing. In August, I will be competing at agility nationals with two of my dogs, then turning around the next day and flying my other dog to Kingston for Amanda's Grass Creek trials. I suspect that my views on both cultures shall not be changed by these back-to-back trials, but I will keep my eyes and ears open to see if I'm just missing out on what some others seem to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 On the topic of how dogs learn, how about this for a challenge? A few of us could choose a trick - Expert level - something like "put litter in a step can", "rolling hoop dive", "pickpocket", "tidy up toys and close the lid", "bring tissue, put it in the trash" - something that those of us who participate haven't taught already. Then, after the trick is successfully trained to fluency, we could discuss what we tried, what worked, what didn't, and how the dog's individual learning style came into play through the process. I recommend a trick since tricks are not a matter of life or death, and can be treated as neutral behaviors. And most likely those who would choose to participate could all find a trick that all participants have not yet trained. Anyone up for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I wish to know whether an objective observer would conclude that the dogs at an agility trial are better or worse mannered, taken as a group, good with bad, than those at a sheepdog trial judged the same way. My impression from a lot of experience with sheepdogs and a little with agility is that the sheepdogs have it paws down. Since you seem up for a pointless bet - how about comparing the behaviour of your sheepdogs when surrounded by crowds, noise and the hype of an agility show with that of agility dogs in the open air with plenty of space and relatively little going on compared to what they are used to when they are competing? And I don't mean a small agility show - I mean one the size that I am used to - as I said, 2000+ dogs. You haven't answered my question as to how many other dogs you may encounter at a trial. Are those dogs ever allowed free association with each other at a trial to test their sociability or are they always on duty? But enough of such crass generalisations as to the alleged behavioural superiority of one group of dogs over another - the futility of such comparisons has been pointed out. Good behaviour is simply when a dog behaves in the way it is expected to in any given situation. All an owner needs to consider is whether their dog causes a nuisance wherever it is taken. Being excited and OTT at an agility show is not generally considered to be antisocial by those involved, and the dog that behaves in that way when it is competing may be a therapy dog in its spare time - and yes, I do know dogs that multi task in that way. I'm curious because the two human groups believe very different things about how dogs learn Where did you get that idea? Living creatures all learn the same way - to do what works best for them. Dogs are no different. A dog may do what is required to gain a tangible valuable reward or it may be to do something to avoid yet another beating. Both outcomes are desirable to the dog. I don't know any informed trainer who would deny that all training methods work after a fashion. Some work better than others, and what may work with one dog may be counterproductive with another, but the learning mechanism is the same whatever approach is taken. And of course some of us believe in cooperation between our two species rather than coercion and punishment, including those operating where lives can depend on their dogs. But assuming that all agility trainers fall within one camp and all sheepdog handlers in the other would be a major error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Those are my observations, based on my 6 years of sheepdog trialing and 10 years of agility trialing. Thank you. It's interesting to hear from someone with a foot in both camps and with considerable experience of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Since I'm still in the cave trying to make sense of shadows on the wall, I am trying to get an idea of when sheepdogs are loose together. Are most dogs tied to their owner's truck/car until they're up? Are most loose while others are working? ETA: The above question was in response to this quote (my bold): At the herding trial, my dogs spend their non-competition time either chained to my truck, or (in the case of one very spoiled Lou), sitting in the handlers tent. At the agility trial, they sit in soft crates/ex-pens. The difference is, I don't have my truck on the agility field, so tethering them to the truck is not practical. In both scenarios, I expect them to be quiet. At herding trials, they are off-leash all the time. At agility trials, I have them on-leash because those are the rules and I am a law and order kind of gal[/Quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm not sure how a post about "how dogs learn" turned into a debate about mannerliness of dogs. But, this wouldn't be the first post to undergo some sort of metamorphosis. I've seen this discussion come up before, and it always makes me scratch my head. Why would you compare a stockdog trial with a sporting trial like agility or flyball? There are almost no similarities amongst the two activities (apples and oranges). So why, then, would this comparison be the litmus test for making judgements about the mannerliness of dogs? It makes no sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I've seen this discussion come up before, and it always makes me scratch my head. Why would you compare a stockdog trial with a sporting trial like agility or flyball? There are almost no similarities amongst the two activities (apples and oranges). So why, then, would this comparison be the litmus test for making judgements about the mannerliness of dogs? It makes no sense to me. This ^^ the question sounds almost like comparing of kids behave in a classroom to how they behave on a playground. Different set of circumstances and different expectations will equal behaviors that are a bit different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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