Lie Down

[olivehill]

Well, the title pretty much says it all. 3 month old pup just doesn't seem to be getting the connection between the body language and the verbal "lie down". He learned "here" and "sit" very quickly -- as in a couple of ten minute sessions -- and learned the body language for "lie down" just as quickly, but we've been working on it for a couple of weeks now and he just doesn't seem to "get" that the verbal means the same thing without the body language.

 

I've used the same verbal + body language command since the first time I asked him to lie down -- "lie down" accompanied by putting my hand down in front of him, sort of guiding his nose so to speak and in the beginning used my other hand to gently guide his body down with his nose/head -- he knows what the hand means and has since after that first session, but if I just say "lie down" he just stares at me like he's still waiting for a command.

 

I've tried slowly backing the body language away, by just not doing the hand all the way down and he doesn't get it. I've also tried just physically laying him down when he doesn't comply with the verbal, but when he is restrained in any way he gets a major case of the wiggles and that just devolves to him rolling over on his back and trying to wrestle.

 

Any tips?

[Sue R]

Suggestion #1 - give him time. He is only three months old, correct? In my experience, the recall ("here") is fairly easily learned (as long as there aren't too many enticing distractions) because it is very rewarding - you call the pup with an encouraging voice, he comes, he gets a treat and/or praise and petting, all is good.

 

The sit, likewise, is pretty natural for a pup. When the pup sits, his/her head is up and easily watching you as you give the treat, pet, or praise. A sit is a pretty natural posture for a pup that is paying attention to you.

 

The "down" is a bit different. You are asking the pup, in essence, to move away from you - his head end, which is the end that he wants near you and seeing you, is being moved away from you - from your face and from your hand (once you remove the hand signals or lure). I don't think this is as easy for a pup to find appealing.

 

I always used the lure method of getting a pup to lie down, never using a hand on his head, shoulders, or back. Treat in the right hand, pup sitting, treat in front of his nose, move hand and treat down and then along the floor (like a capital L) so the pup's head goes down and then out along the floor, and the legs and body will follow. Don't make a curve with your hand or move your hand too far in front or the pup will tend to get up to follow your hand.

 

Once that easier down is learned, you can teach what I call the "sphinx" down, where the pup is standing, and your treat hand is placed in front of his/her nose, and then taken down to the ground and slightly back towards the chest, and the pup's body "folds up" as it moves backward slightly to accomodate the head moving down, and he lies down.

 

Some pups learn the down faster than others but, in my experience, it can be much more difficult than the "sit" or "here" (recall) because it is a little contrary to what the pup wants to do, which is focusing on you and your face and hand.

 

And I think that three months of age is a bit young to expect to transition from use of treats and body language, to responding to the voice alone. Others may find their mileage varies...

 

Best wishes!

[Pam Wolf]

Brenda Aloff has a great book on raising a pup (can't remember the name). It has some WONDERFUL handling exercises in it and it sounds like this pup could use some. Good Luck and get the book

[WWBC]

Perhaps a BAER test? A lot of white on pup's head and body..........just a possibility worth checking

[olivehill]

Sue -- When you put it that way it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the perspective. I'll just keep reinforcing with the body language and we'll move along in his training.

 

Pam -- Handling as in training or handling as in because he gets the wiggle when I've tried the physically put him down method? If the latter, I agree this is a pup that requires a lot of handling to get used to it. He's made much progress in the past few months, but still gets excited when he thinks I might want to play. He holds still for bathes, nail clipping, for any part of his body to be palpated, rubbed and looked at. He doesn't quite have the whole body restraint thing down, but he'll get it.

 

WWBC -- He's not deaf. When he's outside he'll come from all the way across the property when called, through brush, around trees, etc. he can't see us so he's not responding to body language and he only responds to his name (actually any of his three names, the real one and two nicknames), not any of the other dogs so he's differentiating between sounds/words. He'll do the same in the house, coming from another room. He also knows "sit" without body language, "no" and "no bite" are two other completely verbal commands that he takes as well. In fact, when I was first training "drop it" he was laying on the floor in the family room after our first session, chewing on one of his toys when a lady on TV said "drop it" he immediately dropped the toy and was then looking around trying to figure out who was talking to him.

[juliepoudrier]

I use the lure method too. I had someone show me a trick where you sit on the floor with one leg bent in an upside down V and then lure the pup under your leg. To get under, the pup has to lie down. I tried it with Kes with less then great success (though I wasn't real consistent either).

 

For regular luring, when I'd lure her front end down, the back end would often pop up! She could sit, recall, sit up, but down just took a while.

 

One day she just got it. But it wasn't at three months. It seems that it wasn't that long ago, and she's 10 months now, so you may just have to be patient. I would not use the "push them down" method because it creates resistance. Push on puppy's shoulders and the pup's automatic reaction is to resist. This is the reasoning behind the "lure under the leg method."

 

At any rate, although it took Kes what seemed like forever to get the lie down, I had her on sheep the other day, gave her the command, and she took it. So sometimes you just need to give them to time to figure it out.

 

(As an aside, I despaired of ever teaching Pip to shake hands when he was younger. I pretty much had given up, but would occasionally try again. One day, when he was around 2! he got it. Granted, I didn't work hard at it, but my point is that sometimes we work too hard and put too much pressure on because of our expectations. Maybe just backing off a bit is all he needs. He probably does have an idea of what you want and just needs time to fully process it.)

 

J.

[Sue R]

...When he's outside he'll come from all the way across the property when called, through brush, around trees, etc. he can't see us...

I don't know how big your property is and whether puppy-proof fenced or not, bur while his recall sounds very good (my Celt was like that, loving to come when called from an early age), I would not let a three-month old pup out of sight when out of doors (and not often out of sight indoors, either).

 

Maybe I am reading too much into what you wrote, but that sounds to me like way too much unsupervised (if you can't see him, you are not supervising him) activity for a pup of this age. Perhaps I am over-reacting.

[Sue R]

I do not see you mentioning treats but just the use of "body language" which seems to include physically pushing the pup into a position. As Julie said, that's not the best way to train and can result in resistance (the lovely thing about treats is the combination of your getting his total attention and making the learning a very enjoyable activity for both of you). In addition, in very young pups, the use of pushing on the back, shoulders, or hind end is suspected to not be good for the joints and spine (of course, I'm sure you are being very gentle).

[olivehill]

I don't know how big your property is and whether puppy-proof fenced or not, bur while his recall sounds very good (my Celt was like that, loving to come when called from an early age), I would not let a three-month old pup out of sight when out of doors (and not often out of sight indoors, either).

 

Maybe I am reading too much into what you wrote, but that sounds to me like way too much unsupervised (if you can't see him, you are not supervising him) activity for a pup of this age. Perhaps I am over-reacting.

 

He's not allowed out of sight out doors, hence the getting called back if I can no longer see him.

 

Indoors, well, we can agree to disagree, I guess. He has to earn every inch of freedom he gets. If he gives me reason to revoke the current level he enjoys, so be it, but he has earned being able to roam from room to room, nap in the kitchen (his favorite spot is on an AC vent in the middle of the floor) even if I'm not in there, etc. There are off-limit areas that are blocked -- the bathroom, for instance, because he LOVES toilet paper and the bedrooms because it's too secluded and I can't hear him -- but thus far he's doing well with what freedom he has.

 

I do not see you mentioning treats but just the use of "body language" which seems to include physically pushing the pup into a position. As Julie said, that's not the best way to train and can result in resistance (the lovely thing about treats is the combination of your getting his total attention and making the learning a very enjoyable activity for both of you). In addition, in very young pups, the use of pushing on the back, shoulders, or hind end is suspected to not be good for the joints and spine (of course, I'm sure you are being very gentle).

 

No, I trained him to the body language with the lure method, just wasn't aware it had a name and you described it better.

 

From the OP:

 

""lie down" accompanied by putting my hand down in front of him, sort of guiding his nose so to speak and in the beginning used my other hand to gently guide his body down with his nose/head"

 

The lure is what I was describing there, when I say guide his body down, what I meant is if his butt doesn't follow down I put my hand on top with very slight pressure to remind him. Haven't had to do so in weeks though. In the beginning I always had a treat in my hand, now sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I don't like them becoming dependent on treats.

 

I have tried to guide him down once or twice to see if he'd connect the verbal that way, just to see if it'd make a difference, but it didn't.

[Sue R]

He's not allowed out of sight out doors, hence the getting called back if I can no longer see him.

 

Indoors, well, we can agree to disagree, I guess. He has to earn every inch of freedom he gets. If he gives me reason to revoke the current level he enjoys, so be it, but he has earned being able to roam from room to room, nap in the kitchen (his favorite spot is on an AC vent in the middle of the floor) even if I'm not in there, etc. There are off-limit areas that are blocked -- the bathroom, for instance, because he LOVES toilet paper and the bedrooms because it's too secluded and I can't hear him -- but thus far he's doing well with what freedom he has.

Sounds like you are quite on top of things and if this works for you, fine!

 

No, I trained him to the body language with the lure method, just wasn't aware it had a name and you described it better.

My question was whether or not you use treats. I see from your reply that you have used treats but apparently are phasing that out. He's still pretty young and you could readily use treats (or be variable, nothing this time, a jackpot of several another time) or whatever you find works for you.

 

Best wishes!

[Pam Wolf]

the handling is for physically handling a pup and teaching it to relax when handled-only had a chance to glance at it before a friend took the book but I have chatted with Brenda and we both agree that pups need to learn restraint both physically and mentally.

 

As for the down, there are some good ideas in the book for that too

 

The key to not becoming dependent on treats is going to a variable reward ASAP and mixing it up. If you use food, teach a 'good' word that he associates with food, you can pet him also, and then you have 3 rewards to choose from-toys give another reward, or simply release to play for a min

[gcv-border]

I agree that 3 months is pretty young to expect a verbal only "lie down' command. She will get it. Give her a one or two week break and come back to the command and see what she remembers.

 

I will use 'lie down' as part of a game. I call it puppy push-ups. She may be a little young for more than a couple of 'push-ups', but why not try to see how she takes to it.

 

Puppy push-ups - Use a very happy voice. Say 'sit' and treat, say 'lie down' (lure if you have to in the beginning) and treat. 'Sit' and treat. (Also use a clicker to mark the desired behavior - if you use a clicker.) Begin to cycle through these commands as fast as possible with a happy, happy voice. Make it into a game. For the age of your pup, I wouldn't do more than "sit, lie down, sit" - then play, play, play. Then play again with "sit, lie down, sit'. The dog often can not discern between the play and the commands. Begin to fade your body language towards using only verbals. You should eventually only have to treat after the second 'sit' as these commands morph into one behavior, rather than 3 separate ones. It helps to get a very fast 'lie down'. This process may take a while. (Clear as mud?) Remember to keep it very much 'game-like'.

 

Jovi

[Diana A]

My current pup (who is a Belgian and not a border collie, but same principle basically) got sit and come almost right away, but like your pup, had a heck of a time with lie down with no body language. I'll admit, he's 10 months old and still sometimes look at me like I have 2 heads when I say 'down'. His latest interpretation is 'down' means to put his head behind my leg and go into a down by crawling over my foot (how do they come up with this stuff???). I do admit I've been a bit lazy about the down as I'm not at a point with him yet that we actually use it for anything. But I agree with what others have said - this is a fundamentally harder concept for a pup than sit or come.

 

One last comment - I wouldn't be phasing out food just yet, not on something he hasn't learned. It will just make it harder for him to make the connection and figure out what you want. For example the one time he's brilliant and thinks 'lets lie down and see if that earns the treat' and you decide it's one of the times he should't get one . . . then he'll think 'wrong answer' and it may be forever before he tries that response again. I wouldn't phase it out until he's pretty sure of what it means and the behavior linked to the command is strong enough that it can survive a few times of no reward.

[olivehill]

Thank you all for the help! It's much appreciated.

 

Jovi -- I'll give that game a try some time and see how he does.

 

Diana -- When he was learning the verbal+body language he got a treat every single time. He now knows it 100% without any shadow of a doubt and gets one sometimes, but not others. He knows exactly what my hand down in front of his nose + "lie down" means, there is zero confusion. If by some miracle he happened to lie down with only the verbal he'd certainly get treats that time.

[Root Beer]

He now knows it 100% without any shadow of a doubt and gets one sometimes, but not others. He knows exactly what my hand down in front of his nose + "lie down" means, there is zero confusion. If by some miracle he happened to lie down with only the verbal he'd certainly get treats that time.

 

Sometimes in order to help the dog generalize from the hand cue to verbal alone, it helps to fade the hand cue instead of just remove it altogether. So maybe do two reps with a full hand cue, and then do a rep with a reduced hand cue, followed by one with the full cue. Eventually, after several successful reps with a very small hand cue, drop it altogether and try the verbal alone. I have observed that there are some behaviors that my dogs take to on verbal alone almost instantly, and others that require a lot more help to generalize to verbal alone.

 

Also, when changing criteria it is best to keep the rate of reinforcement high, and then lower that rate (make it variable) once the dog is successful with the new criteria most of the time.

[olivehill]

Sometimes in order to help the dog generalize from the hand cue to verbal alone, it helps to fade the hand cue instead of just remove it altogether.

 

 

Yep, like I said, we tried that... but it didn't help. Thanks though! I've had success in the past with it as well, so once we come back to it we'll definitely give it a try again.

[Root Beer]

Yep, like I said, we tried that... but it didn't help. Thanks though! I've had success in the past with it as well, so once we come back to it we'll definitely give it a try again.

 

One thing that I've done that works wonderfully is to sit on the floor with a mat in front of me - like a bath mat.

 

I toss a treat away from me. When the dog returns the first time (by choice, don't use a recall here), I reinforce one time, then toss another treat.

 

This time when the dog returns, I don't reinforce and wait to see if the dog will sit or lie down in front of me. This could take a little while at first, but I've found that most dogs get this quickly since the person sitting on the floor is a different picture.

 

If the dog chooses to sit, I give a treat, then release, and toss another away. After the dog sits, maybe 3 or 4 times, I wait for the down. After that I only reinforce when the dog returns and chooses to lie down on the mat in front of me. Before long, this is happening every time.

 

Then I start to give my down cue when the dog is returning. (We work distance later).

 

This way I can classically condition the response (the down) to the cue without a hand signal. I do train a down on a hand signal concurrently the more traditional lure-reward way, but I like to do this to train to the verbal.

 

Once the dog is doing this, I do this again sitting in a chair, and then progress to standing, and remove the mat once the dog is obviously responding to the cue readily.

 

I did this with Dean and I have to say he has the nicest "splat-downs" of any of my dogs. Whether from a sit or a down, close or at a distance, he can hit the ground readily on verbal alone.

 

This could be a good game to do with a puppy since it will stat to teach a "go mat", which is a nice behavior for a dog to know. It will also give the puppy a chance to think through the learning process since it really is a capturing exercise. And if you are working with the lure to hand signal method at the same time, it all comes together nicely so the dog can respond to both physical and verbal cues.

[Gideon's girl]

Before getting Border Collies, I had alway heard that you had to be careful how you taught them anything because they would pick up on unintended cues and only respond if you happened to do the same unintended cue again, like always having your left foot forward for a recall, or holding your head tilted to the side. I haven't experienced this with mine, yet. But, is this the same idea? The dog sees the hand signal or body language as the cue, not the verbal at all. Teaching a dog to respond to a new cue or transferring, can usually be done using the "new" cue, followed by the old one. When the dog learns that the new cue will always be followed by the old one, it should start to jump the gun and beat you to it. That's what we do when "Americanising" an import dog.