Dragoon 45 Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 What has happened to the Scotch Collie? Some folks I have talked to stated that the Scotch Collie was absorbed into both the Australian Shepherd and the Border Collie populations back in the late 60's and early 70's. As a kid we kept both BC's for herding and Scotch Collies around for general farm/ranch chores. They meshed real well. The BC's gathered stock and the Scotch Collies helped to push them where we needed them to go. The Scotch Collies excelled at pest control and were much better guard dogs for stock and the ranch in general. But the Scotch Collie could not beat the BC's at herding. From what little I can find on the internet, the old Scotch Collie is now called the English Shepherd or Old Time Farm Collie. But from the listing of breeders and pictures of their dogs, few if any breed what I knew as a Scotch Collie. Can anyone shed some light on what happened to them? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 What has happened to the Scotch Collie? Some folks I have talked to stated that the Scotch Collie was absorbed into both the Australian Shepherd and the Border Collie populations back in the late 60's and early 70's. As a kid we kept both BC's for herding and Scotch Collies around for general farm/ranch chores. They meshed real well. The BC's gathered stock and the Scotch Collies helped to push them where we needed them to go. The Scotch Collies excelled at pest control and were much better guard dogs for stock and the ranch in general. But the Scotch Collie could not beat the BC's at herding. From what little I can find on the internet, the old Scotch Collie is now called the English Shepherd or Old Time Farm Collie. But from the listing of breeders and pictures of their dogs, few if any breed what I knew as a Scotch Collie. Can anyone shed some light on what happened to them? Thank you. Have you seen this web site? I found it a while ago, but I really cannot evaluate the accuracy of it with the limited knowledge I have on collie types and history. Additionally, the breeder listing would prompt me to throw a "caveat emptor" suggestion out there, but I'm pretty cynical about breeders in general until I know more about them. Still, it looks like an interesting website. http://www.oldtimefa...-farm-shepherd/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 When you say Scotch collie, do you mean the (more original form of) the Lassie collie? Interesting web site Terrecar. Thanks for sharing it. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Evans Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 I have a photo of my grandfather and his collie taken on the farm (dairy) in the late 30's early 40's. Black and white of course, but you can see the resemblance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon 45 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 I have been told they were the original version of the Lassie Collie, but I have also been told they were a informal breed developed here in the US by small farmers during the mid 1800's from just about any dog that would herd. I don't know which is correct. They were a large dog, 80-100 lbs. Normally rough coated like a lassie collie, but their heads were an enlarged version of a BC's head; they did not have the long pointed nose and narrow head. They had a wider, heavier body than the Lassie type also. Their herding style was loose eyed and they used their bark more for herding than anything else. The most common coat color was a tan and white, very close to the Australian Red BC. Once the stock was gathered they were very good at pushing them, but could not compete with the BC when it came time to gather; they could do it in a pinch but it would take twice as long as a BC. They were also excellent dogs for small children; they wouldn't nip when the children got excited but would use their body to keep the children out of things they should not be into. They were also excellent at pest control. I have looked at the web site on the Old Time Farm Collie mentioned above, and only some of the pictures match my memory and the pictures I have of the dogs we had back then. When you say Scotch collie, do you mean the (more original form of) the Lassie collie? Interesting web site Terrecar. Thanks for sharing it. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 The dog shown below doesn't look much like the dogs on the link that Terrecar posted, and I don't think she's as large as you described, but she was the "farm dog" on my great grandparents' farm in Wyoming from ~ 1953 to 1968. (Sorry that the quality of the photo isn't better!). They did keep sheep (among other animals), which I think she was used to help move, and I distinctly remember as a child using her to help bring the cows in for milking as well. My mother's uncle (still alive!) claims that Sparkle (AKA Sparkie) was the smartest dog (save one) they'd ever had on the farm. Here she's shown ~ 1959 with my great-grandfather (84 years old at the time). If I recall correctly, she was tan and white. Although she wasn't a Border collie, it was in seeking to find a dog like her that led me to my first Border collie as a girl (~ 1967?). They had another dog ("Rex, the wonder dog") that they'd found as an abandoned puppy after some Basque sheep herders had passed through the area, but Rex looked to me a lot more like an Aussie than this one did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 What a neat old photo! We had a dog when I was growing up (50's to 60's) that looked at lot like that dog but her ears were pricked. The vet called her an "upstate farm collie" but her moves were Border Collie in style. However, she was also very protective of house, yard, and (most of all) me. So, while I have always called her a Border Collie (she had the eye and stance when "working" the ball), she may have been a variant on the Scotch Collie or English Shepherd. Either way, an odd dog to find on Long Island at the time, although she could have originated out on the Eastern end of the island, where there still were farms at that time, or from upstate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 I can't lay my hands on it at the moment but one of the farm magazines recently had an article on the old-time farm collies. Not to start another rant about AKC breeding practices, but basically (again) a very good breed was ruined by breeding for exaggerated confirmation points such as the long narrow nose, tipped ears, and particular coat colors following the popularity of the "Lassie" shows. Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon 45 Posted June 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Was the Scotch Collie ever a recognized breed? I knew a bunch of old time ranchers who told me that a lot of the Scotch Collies were registered as Aussie's and BC's back in the day. I don't know if this is true but I have no reason to doubt them. I agree the Rough or Lassie type Collie has been ruined for just about any farm/ranch work and most of them I have seen make a hyper BC look calm. The ones I have seen give a new definition to the word hyper. I do know a few working smooth coat collies, but they are few and far between and seem much more bidable than the rough coats. I have been looking for years now for a Scotch Collie and haven't seen one anywhere. They were not as intense a dog as a BC, content to lay around if nothing better was in the offing. I will probably lose my older BC in a couple-three years; he is now almost 13 and still active but you can see the age catching up to him. When that happens I would like to have a source for another dog for a companion for my younger BC who is almost 2. A BC or a Scotch Collie are really the only two breeds I would consider. As I am getting very close to 60 and am starting to have trouble getting around, I may not in the future be able to give the new dog as much exercise as a BC needs. Here in Okla, there are supposed to be a couple of breeders of English Shepherds which are supposed to be the same thing as the Old Farm Collie or Scotch Collie. The ones I could find on the web, do not breed the same type dogs as I had when young. It is such a waste, that a very good general purpose, working farm and ranch dog breed was allowed to disappear. I can't lay my hands on it at the moment but one of the farm magazines recently had an article on the old-time farm collies. Not to start another rant about AKC breeding practices, but basically (again) a very good breed was ruined by breeding for exaggerated confirmation points such as the long narrow nose, tipped ears, and particular coat colors following the popularity of the "Lassie" shows. Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Was the Scotch Collie ever a recognized breed? I knew a bunch of old time ranchers who told me that a lot of the Scotch Collies were registered as Aussie's and BC's back in the day. I don't know if this is true but I have no reason to doubt them. I agree the Rough or Lassie type Collie has been ruined for just about any farm/ranch work and most of them I have seen make a hyper BC look calm. The ones I have seen give a new definition to the word hyper. I do know a few working smooth coat collies, but they are few and far between and seem much more bidable than the rough coats. I have been looking for years now for a Scotch Collie and haven't seen one anywhere. They were not as intense a dog as a BC, content to lay around if nothing better was in the offing. I will probably lose my older BC in a couple-three years; he is now almost 13 and still active but you can see the age catching up to him. When that happens I would like to have a source for another dog for a companion for my younger BC who is almost 2. A BC or a Scotch Collie are really the only two breeds I would consider. As I am getting very close to 60 and am starting to have trouble getting around, I may not in the future be able to give the new dog as much exercise as a BC needs. Here in Okla, there are supposed to be a couple of breeders of English Shepherds which are supposed to be the same thing as the Old Farm Collie or Scotch Collie. The ones I could find on the web, do not breed the same type dogs as I had when young. It is such a waste, that a very good general purpose, working farm and ranch dog breed was allowed to disappear. Apparently so - my grandfather had one when my mother was young. The collie was all white, and once had ten pups! He went to English Shepherds, then Border Collies. The article was inBaker Creek Heirloom Seeds most recent quarterly magazine and says exactly as you said - an old-time loose eyed low intensity farm dog. Breeders are now trying to bring the dog back. The article is not on their website but you could contact the company to ask for an issue. (It's a great magazine by the way!) Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Our Collie, Daniel, adopted in late November, is pictured below. He is now a registered therapy dog and whenever we visit a nursing home or hospital, someone always asks, "Whatever happened to the Lassie Collies?" Many of the older people we visit remember having one when they were young, or knew someone who did. He's quite the hit when we arrive with the Great Dane, the Rottie, and the Beagle. We've found him to be sweet and gentle but with a real stubborn streak; not as eager to please as our Border Collie, Scooter, was. : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 I don't mean to offend anyone, but most of those dogs just look like show collies. They have the more "refined" head introduced by mixing in Borzoi. My understanding of Scotch Collies is that they looked more like Welsh Sheepdogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 I don't mean to offend anyone, but most of those dogs just look like show collies. They have the more "refined" head introduced by mixing in Borzoi. My understanding of Scotch Collies is that they looked more like Welsh Sheepdogs. That was my thought when we got Daniel--his nose is very long and pointy, not like the Collie we had when I was growing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 I thought the Scotch collie was the early from of the Lassie collie, or at least a progenitor breed. You can't look at the show collie today and really see what the Scotch collie was any more than you can do that with any other modern show version of an older useful breed. JMO. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Dear Doggers, The Collies Queen Victoria popularized were morphologically dissimilar and some looked like Border Collies of today. The taxidermied Scotch Collie at Tring looks like a black and tan Border Collie or modern Wicklow (irish, near extinct) Collie. Victoria's were crossed with Borzois, hence the modern useless show collie, but some working Scotch collies persisted into the early 20th century and were available from Luther Burpees Fordhook Kennels (I've seen the catalog) as late as 1909. I strongly suspect that these Scotch Collies became our "Farm Collies" and that they were bred back to the Show Collies often enough to extinguish them. Some early farm magazines had a debate about show and working collies. We know who lost. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 My understanding of Scotch Collies is that they looked more like Welsh Sheepdogs. Nice link. Thanks. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon 45 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 Those pictures of the Welsh Sheepdogs are the closest match to the pictures I have of our old dogs. Our dogs had rougher coats, although the color pattern of the female working sheep on the bottom of the web page is almost a match. Her herding style on sheep appears close to our dogs, although we only used them on cattle and one occasion an escaped sow. Those old Scotch Collies were some very tough dogs. We had a 700lb sow get out of her pen. To make a long story short she would not go back into her pen for love or money. So my grandfather put our male Scotch Collie on her, he was a 90 lb dog at the time. The sow still wouldn't move, so Laddie grabbed her ear. The sow took that dog through four barbed wire fences and the dog held on. When the sow realized the dog wasn't going to let go until she went back into her pen, away she went. The dog let go right after we closed the gate. The sow was cut up a little from the barbed wire and had four puncture wounds in her ear from Laddie's teeth but the dog only had one scratch on its nose. That old sow would never leave her pen again, even if the gate was standing wide open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsail Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 I have a border collie/rough collie mix that seems to have a mix of chacteristics. He's got the long collie snout and tipped ears but they ear set is more to the side and his eyes are more border collie like with a definite stop. He's got moderate coat (for a collie lol) but he's a bit more square than a border collie structure wise. years ago I was at an event and an elderly woman from Scotland was so excited to see him because he reminded her of the collies on her childhood farm and commented that she hasn't seen one since she was a kid so I'm guessing it was the mix of features, not just him being a border collie. These are just a few profile shots of my boy I have on my computer: I'll see if I can dig up some head on shots or full body if anyone is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Those pictures of the Welsh Sheepdogs are the closest match to the pictures I have of our old dogs. Our dogs had rougher coats, although the color pattern of the female working sheep on the bottom of the web page is almost a match. Funny this came up. My girlfriend asked me a few months ago about "farm collies", which her grandparents had on their farm. I had never heard of them. I googled farm collies and came up with info for her. Her recollection of them is very similar to the picture of the Welsh Sheepdogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 The Welsh sheepdogs I know are virtually indistinguishable from the BCs in looks, however all the welsh sheepdogs I've met are also related. My agility trainer has border collies and one Welsh sheepdog and I would never have known he was not just another border collie if she'd never said anything (and that's despite already having met his dam, cousin, and two littermates!) Also, one of the people had three Welsh sheepdogs and a sable border collie and I thought the BC was a Welsh sheepdog. lol I would think English shepherds would be closer to a farm collie type. But I'm no expert on Welsh sheepdogs, I just see the one family of them around the sports scene here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotchcollie Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I have a border collie/rough collie mix that seems to have a mix of chacteristics. He's got the long collie snout and tipped ears but they ear set is more to the side and his eyes are more border collie like with a definite stop. He's got moderate coat (for a collie lol) but he's a bit more square than a border collie structure wise. years ago I was at an event and an elderly woman from Scotland was so excited to see him because he reminded her of the collies on her childhood farm and commented that she hasn't seen one since she was a kid so I'm guessing it was the mix of features, not just him being a border collie. These are just a few profile shots of my boy I have on my computer: I'll see if I can dig up some head on shots or full body if anyone is interested. Setsail, your dog looks just like the "collie" I grew up with (40 yrs ago)in Indiana. Is he a working dog and what is herding style like? I would like to see other photos. I have an old fashioned farm collie, aka scotch collie. She has herding instinct but is loose eyed, does not have the border collie working style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 He is beautiful!! (I had a crush on Lassie when I was little.) Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jexa Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I grew up with a dog like those pictured, a "lassie" dog named Travis. We always called him a rough coated collie, though we knew that wasn't totally accurate. My mom got him because she (and my dad, and everyone else in my family except me) went to Texas A&M, and Reveille is their mascot: The story behind Rev: Back in the early 30s, a couple of cadets headed back to campus late at night didn't see a puppy run across the road...they hit her, but stopped, searched for her, and found a starving, slightly injured black and white mutt. They took her back to their dorms to take care of her. The next morning when the bugler started playing reveille, the puppy started howling along, and so they named her Reveille. Somewhere along the way, Reveille became a purebred collie like the ones pictured. Unfortunately, with the popularity of the Lassie franchise, breeders started to ruin the breed in the name of looks like so many other breeds. Travis was a great dog who loved all of god's creatures great and small, and made friends with them all, except cats. He HATED cats. The result was him chasing off all the good mousers...in fact, we'd often see him playing with mice in the yard like they were his best buddies. He loved kids so much his teeth would chatter when he saw them, and my brother and I were frequently knocked over by his enthusiastic bushy tail. Farm life didn't quite agree with all that hair, though. He looked atrocious, and inadvertantly was a great guard dog despite his sweet nature simply because he looked scary. Despite what a wonderful dog he was, he convinced my mom to never buy a purebred dog as a pet again, as she was certain the long skinny head bred for looks squished their brains together and made them stupid (more or less). I have always had a soft spot for these dogs, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I wanted a collie when I was a kid because of Reveille. I begged and begged for a rough collie. It was my dream dog. My mom got me a sheltie instead because she wanted a small dog. I was satisfied enough at the time. I can't see myself with a rough collie these days. I went to A&M while Rev VII and then Rev VIII were around. Rev VII was not suited to the job of school mascot and ended up retiring after biting her handlers a few times. I really liked Rev VIII. She's a very small little collie but seemed to have a great temperament. Unfortunately my dog at the time was not very friendly to Reveille when we ran into her on occasion. Imagine my horror, my little dog growling at the highest ranking officer in the corp. Off topic, but I have to chime in when people start Aggie talk. I always thought Reveille II was an interesting dog. I've seen her called a sheltie mix but she look farm collie to me. http://www.thebatt.com/polopoly_fs/1.1187539!/image/138035401.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_260/138035401.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jexa Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I think Rev VII had a big role in convincing my mom they were ruining these dogs. As you said, she just wasn't able to handle her role. And my OCD tendencies have to point out, it's spelled "Corps" even though it's pronounced "core" Rev II is gorgeous, I'd love to know her actual breeding. Personally, I'm with the group that says Reveille should go back to being an adopted mutt like the original Rev. But that's getting even more off subject Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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