How do you teach a big dog to stay off?

[Tommy Coyote]

This is the first time I've had this problem to this degree. I am taking care of a one year old Old English. She is very sweet and really wants to please. I would guess she is about 80 pounds of pure energy - and just so joyful ab out everything.

 

But she jumps up and keeps it up for about the first ten minutes that I am there. Her owners have got her really confused. They don't know what to do with her. They use the "down" command for just about everything.

 

How do I teach her to stay off? I have noticed that she responds a lot better to a very quiet voice - her poor frustrated owners keep yelling "down" at her. And then they try to just hold her down. That dowsn't work at all.

 

Any ideas are welcome. I'm getting battered. And she really is such a nice dog.

 

And are Old English kind of dumb - or maybe hard headed by nature?

[mum24dog]

Even if you make progress while you are dog sitting it will all be undone when she goes home because the owners won't be consistent, I'm sure.

 

She's getting attention from jumping up. She needs everyone in her life never to give her any attention unless all 4 paws are on the floor, and I know from experience how hard that consistency can be to achieve.

 

Dogs are easy to train - people aren't.

[olivehill]

If you can anticipate when she's going to jump, just put your knee up like you're marching. You don't knee the dog, just bring your knee up in her way. I would do it in front of the owners too and point out how it prevents her from jumping. Sometimes no command is needed, a dog just needs to learn that [insert antic here] doesn't work.

[mum24dog]

If you can anticipate when she's going to jump, just put your knee up like you're marching. You don't knee the dog, just bring your knee up in her way. I would do it in front of the owners too and point out how it prevents her from jumping. Sometimes no command is needed, a dog just needs to learn that [insert antic here] doesn't work.

 

Not foolproof though, especially with a big dog that can override a human knee, or just jump on your back instead. It's all a game.

[olivehill]

I've used it with dogs well over 100 pounds and not had a problem, but if you have poor balance or are a very small or weak person I can see where it might be difficult. As for them jumping on your back, that's where the "anticipate" part comes in.

 

Seems to me it's at least worth a try over the do absolutely nothing because the owners won't reinforce method.

[Pam Wolf]

Sit! Reward for a sit and consistantly tell the dog to sit when the dog approaches

[Cynthia P]

I'd put it on a leash and teach it sit; than ask someone to come in, have it on a leash and make it sit, person leave, sit, person come in, sit...and so on until the person can get closer.

 

they can't jump when they are sitting.

 

We used to puppysit an Olde English bulldogge that would hump anything that moved, legs, children, adults on the couch, dogs, cats. He stopped doing that at our place because we would exercise him and "stimulate" him with training. WE redirected the humping and taught him other behaviours. His owners loved how his behaviour had changed when they first brought him back home...but that lastest a few days and he was back in his humparoo stage. We later adopted him when his owner got pancreatic cancer and he was quickly turned into a wonderful pet.

 

Perhaps you can change the owners, but at least when you babysit, he will behave for you

 

cynthia

[Tommy Coyote]

Not foolproof though, especially with a big dog that can override a human knee, or just jump on your back instead. It's all a game.

 

That is exactly what she does. I've really tried with the knee up stuff and she has just gotten good at avoiding it. She is so tall she can put her paws on my shoulders and almost look me in the eye. Or she jumps up from the back and kind of wraps her long legs around me. It would be funny if it weren't so annoying. And dangerous. I have to be really careful around her steps so she won't just push me down the stairs.

 

I've been trying to really praise her alot when she stays down and behaves herself.

[Tommy Coyote]

Sit! Reward for a sit and consistantly tell the dog to sit when the dog approaches

 

I'm trying. But this dog is just so boingy. It goes like this - sit - good girl - no sit - good girl. And then BOING and she almost knocks me down.

 

Owners are going to take her to school when they get back. I think they should have done that when she was two month's old. Remember Dr. Maxwell from the clinic on Antioch. He had Old English. He is still their vet and I think that might be where this dog comes from - or from a friend of a friend. This is the 3rd Old English these people have had - the previous two weren't nearly this energetic.

 

With all of her horrible behavior I still really like this dog. She is just such an honest dog. I really think a whole lot of the problem is that she needs to get a lot more exercise. She is just kind of like a coiled spring getting ready to BOING.

[Pam Wolf]

Keep it up, it will work and have the owners work on the sit too.

[Tommy Coyote]

Keep it up, it will work and have the owners work on the sit too.

 

They have been working on "sit" for about 8 months. One has to wonder just how smart this dog is. Or how completely inconsistant her poor owners have been.

[gcv-border]

I assume you are talking about an OE Sheepdog? And yes, I have heard they are pretty dumb (but to be fair, I am sure that there may be some owner responsibility) and that they stay 'puppyish' almost their entire life.

 

I agree - no attention for jumping and treating for "4 on the floor" -- but if the owners are not on board, they will continue to suffer her behavior. To me, no attention means crossing my arms and turning my back when she jumps. If you have to prevent her from dancing around you to jump up on your front, stand near a wall so when you turn, you are right at the wall and she can't come in front of you. For some dogs, attention can consist of being pushed down (Oh, you are pushing me. What a great game!) or being kneed or being yelled at.

 

If she is so big, maybe try tying her to something so you can step out of range while you are training? I have never tried this, but thought of it after reading your posts.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

[arf2184]

Have you tried working with a clicker? She might like the precision and you could easily click four paws on the floor or sit and then gradually increase the amount of time she has to be in position before you click. At the very least, the sound might get her to engage her brain a bit more.

[Lewie'sMom]

You've gotten lots of advice but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in, also.

 

No offense meant to olivehill, but no knee. It doesn't work. Any besides, do you really want to use pain or discomfort to train? (That's a rhetorical question.) From what you've told us, nothing you do is going to make much difference because her owners are inconsistent and confusing.

 

The only other suggestion I have is go give a high pitch squeal (like a dog in pain) as she's jumping and turn your back. The noise may get through to her doggy brain long enough to set her back on her heels. IF she then puts 4 on the floor, praise her and give her want she wants, which is attention. But, I doubt anything you can do, short of taking her home, will have much lasting effect. You'll probably want to be sure to wear play clothes and keep your guard up when visiting.

[rushdoggie]

Best way I have found isn't a quick solution. Its arms crossed and being a statue or turning away when shes sproinging, and attention when she finally stops. I usually bend into the dog when I start the attention as that pressure will usually discourage the jumping up. Your timing should be good as to reinforce what you want as soon as she offers it, and then eventually increase the criteria to longer and longer times.

 

Its tough to remove all attention (because any interaction is reinforcing to the happy girl) and will take several repetitions and probably some backsliding to get through, but eventually it will get through. You want me? Awesome, but you have to be still.

[SS Cressa]

I realized this doesnt necessary fix the problem but two things :

Do you have a thunder shirt big enough for her? My sister border collie is easy to get over stimulate and slapping a thunder shirt on him before we left worked wonders on him whem we return.

 

And second thing specially with springy dogs to get them not to jump on me i crouch down and offer a cookie at my side. I give them attentions while on the ground and with a cookie near by it generally creates enough of a distraction. Lol i more worry about the dogs injury themselves when they just throw themselves on people and with me being short a knee never has that great of effect.

[waffles]

I have dealt with a dog like this too-the repeated sits, knee up (obviously did not work), giving commands, etc does not work with dogs like these. In my opinion, the dog is over stimulated at this point and that is why these approaches do not work. Turning your back is meaningless as the dog will just continue to jump on your back. I worked with a relatives 90lb husky mix that literally left deep claw scratches all over me from his jumping.

 

What worked for us was to have the dog on a leash, person walks in, dog jumps-gets excited-etc, the dog is walked away. The person can leave as well, for us we had people just stand there. It is kind of like doing LAT (look at that) where you keep the dog under threshold. For dogs like this, just physically getting to the person is the reward. The dog continues to get walked away until they are under threshold and then are walked back toward the person-rewarded for being calm, and walked away when not. This may take days, several approaches and lots lots of treats. Reward when the dog is calm in the persons presence-even if it is 15ft away, in another room, etc. The dog gets to approach the person only when it is CALM and all 4 paws are on the ground.

 

There is no quick (like putting a knee up) fix to dogs like this and it can be hard to even understand just how bad some big dogs are at jumping (and in our case, clawing, grabbing, etc) so I sympathize with you. But, like others said, if the owners don't continue with training and be consistent it will all go away.

[Tommy Coyote]

Last nite went better. I just ignored her when I walked in and thenput my hand on the side of her face and put pressure there to get her calm down. And that worked.

 

And we did practice sits and stays with treats - she really likes being worked with. But just as soon as I was through and said "OK, outside" she started boinging again. But it was better - baby steps.

 

She is little better than the last time I took care of her she just thought I was a big, tuggy toy. She would bounce in and grab my clothes and pull me all over the front room.

 

Not so good this morning after she had been asleep all nite. My arms are already all bruised. And she is just having the best time.

 

She also will eat anything - anything. And she is so tall that she can reach even the backs of the counters. Everthing, everywhere has to be up.

 

And she isn't housebroken. At least she uses papers.

 

Heard this racket this morning. Turned around and their great big grey cat was laying half on the counter and half off. The dog was boinging up and the cat would hiss, spit and then wham right in the face. Dog would bounce up again and hiss, spit and wham right in the face. They were both just loving it.

 

We will continue with the sit and stay and treats. She is getting pretty good at that.

[Rua]

OES's aren't overly thick, but they are a "baby in a bulldozer".

 

I currently own an OES..before her mobility issues she would just steam plow and jump up. I took her to pack play ONCE...she plowed through all the dogs and sent 1 owner flying through the air. Needless to say she won't be going back :-P. OES were bred to keep herds of cattle n sheep moving which meant muscling them down county lanes. So that's their main skill.

 

I have noticed with Bell and the other OES I have helped rescue that they are "head sensitive". I can move Bell about by using my hand on her head with gentle pressure. Training wise owners HAVE to be consistent and specific with commands. If you tell her down does it mean lie down or get down? While a BC might be able be able to figure out which one we mean an OES isn't that smart (bless em). Pick 1 command for jumping up..I use off as ours and just keep at it. Gently use you hand to head to pre-empt jumps and issue command. Reward when there is no resistantace ..ie doesn't attempt.

 

No they aren't the Einstein's of the dog world but they do have the biggest hearts. Owners have to understand OES's take a lot more time to train than other herding breeds..they were the muscle behind the brains.

[Tommy Coyote]

Why does she not catch on to stuff? Are they just independent?

 

We have done this stuff over and over and over. And by the time I leave she is doing pretty well. Then when I come back we have to start from the beginning all over again.

 

But she remembers the things she wants to just fine. I laid two treats on the counter and she jumped and grabbed them. Then sat back down again. But she has rmembered that those treats were there and has stopped to check on them the last few times I was there.

 

She is just the best hearted goof. But she is really hard to train.

 

Would a head halter help?

[Rua]

Bell has a head halter but tbh..didn't do much. It helped her learn not to pull while walking but with jumping up was just a matter of preempting and either avert or hand on head. Consistency and keeping commands simple yet different ie off means off people/objects, down means lie down. OES will always be the baby type no matter how old they get.

 

As for the counter surfing, Bell did outgrow that habit although she will take things left on coffee table if unattended. Just have to keep counter clear till she figures it out.

 

A BC will learn something within a hour to a day but an OES will take a lot longer. Pick 1 habit to focus on at a time and just keep at till they get it. Then work on next habit while occasionally reinforcing learned ones.

 

My Bell is coming up on 7 and she still acts like a puppy..they never grow up. :-)

[rushdoggie]

In my opinion, the dog is over stimulated at this point and that is why these approaches do not work. Turning your back is meaningless as the dog will just continue to jump on your back. I worked with a relatives 90lb husky mix that literally left deep claw scratches all over me from his jumping.

 

 

 

Ouch and I agree with your post for the most part, but truly, part of the reason to remove interaction by ignoring the dog and turning away is that you are removing the stimulation. Eventually, the dog *will* stop jumping and if you can then interact they will figure out over time it doesn't work. Especially for a super friendly bouncy dog who really does want your attention.

 

Getting your v=back clawed sounds like no fun though. You need a Kevlar jacket.

[waffles]

Ouch and I agree with your post for the most part, but truly, part of the reason to remove interaction by ignoring the dog and turning away is that you are removing the stimulation. Eventually, the dog *will* stop jumping and if you can then interact they will figure out over time it doesn't work. Especially for a super friendly bouncy dog who really does want your attention.

 

Getting your v=back clawed sounds like no fun though. You need a Kevlar jacket.

I don't fully get what you said but I think you are saying that ignoring and turning away are going to work with these dogs? The dog I worked with, this was definitely not the case. I mean literally, the dog spent about 30min. digging at my flesh, jumping at my face, head butting me, all the while I stood against a wall "ignoring it". That tactic was clearly not safe for me (I am only 95lbs and they have children who come over as well) or the rest of my family. The dog had to learn to approach people who entered his house in a calm way. For this dog (and obviously I am giving advice based on the one dog I worked with that had such a severe problem) ignoring was dangerous and the dog was not learning anything. The dog was also mouthy-grabbing my arms with his teeth and his claws. It only took a couple days of short training-setting up the situation where we walked in, and he was not allowed to approach us unless calm and was rewarded for being calm. The main problem for this dog was being overly excited to see new people walk into his house. This method worked for this one dog and he is fine now with people coming into their house. I merely suggested it might work for this dog since a lot of people can't comprehend just how bad it can be-trust me, I never met a dog like this. My first instinct was to turn my back and ignore.

 

Edit: We decided to do the exercise with the dog on a leash since he was fine approaching people outside while leashed but not inside.

[rushdoggie]

I don't fully get what you said but I think you are saying that ignoring and turning away are going to work with these dogs?

 

 

In most cases, yes. You posted earlier that removing attention wouldn't work because the dog is overstimulated, and my point was that removing attention can help that.

 

Of course no training plan works 100% with every dog, and it sounds like you dealt with a dog for whom that was the case, and what you did worked well, especially if he had reached the point where he was biting at your arms deliberately. I am not disagreeing with your training plan (in fact I think its fantastic), just the statement that the "turning away and removal of your attention" will not work with any dog thats overstimulated.

 

IME, for most dogs, I have found it will work. Its just a less formal version of what you did (rather than walking away, and doing the on leash thing, the human removed themselves emotionally from the interaction). And yes, this actually included a super hyper OES that belonged to an ex boyfriend (who he refused to train, partly why he is a ex), and whole lot of big dogs who I have fostered or helped train over the years. And it works because the dog is jumping up for attention, and when they don't get it they will eventually quit jumping up and you can teach them (over time) that the way to get attention is to do *insert whatever behavior you prefer here* instead of jumping up. And it doesn't require 2 people, or any kind of thought out set up.

 

 

And the dog in the OP sounds like a goofy happy dog who genuinely wants the attention.

[dsmbc]

Rush doggie and Cynthia have given you good advice. I would only add this, Work lots of fun games for the sit until it is super fun for her to do, practice the sit when someone comes in, etc. Like Cynthia said and turn your back when she jumps. With my pup, he will sit immediately if someone turns their back, starting to not jump now. I would also have a chat with the owners and show them how to do this and be very clear with them that if they want this to change they have to be 100% consistent. They can never touch her, pet her or push her off when she jumps, just silently turn, also, keep her on a leash at all times until she learns, will help prevent her from doing it to someone else.