Time and Lineage

[terrecar]

You know, I wasn't going to respond to this further because I figure if someone starts off a response/post by demeaning another, they're really more interested in scoring brownie points** than having a thoughtful (or adult) discussion (present post excluded, of course ).

 

However, for those who are charitable enough to hear me out rather than attempting to discredit taking cheap shots at my intelligence....

 

I don't mean to suggest that I ever considered 'training' for conformation in any way comparable to training for stockwork. There really isn't much in the way of 'training' for the breed ring. The comparison I made, in my own mind, was in terms of the number and variety of dogs that a show handler would have experience with vs. a working dog person's experience. So offhand and without really thinking it through, I admit that I dismissed Donald's claim as a biased one.

 

 

** Or vapid cheerleading

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Mum chided me, "And yet you generalise by comparing the behaviour of some dogs that you know in their familiar environment with dogs pursuing a completely different activity with which you are not familiar. I wouldn't make any such comparison based on the few sheepdog trials I have seen."

 

I was specific about my British experience. If and when I attend an agility trial here or there where no dogs are hysterical and many are offlead, I will revise my generalization.

 

At Crufts: (which I enjoyed, by the way (2006?) I was puzzled by the setup breed clubs used to familiarize the public with their dogs. The kiosk of the British Border Collie Club was smaller than a judge's tent (10x10?) and contained two humans and two Border Collies who were never out of reach, constantly being petted, fondled and cooed at by clueless strangers. Eh?

 

Doubtless Ms Mum's dogs are mannerly and can accompany her everywhere. Doubtless there are many other mannerly British Border Collies competing in agility and obedience.

 

But I stick by my generalization from the agility trials I have seen at Crufts and in this country that Border Collies are more mannerly at US sheepdog trials; a generalization which can be tested easily on a weekend, by attending a sheepdog trial, an agility trial and an obedience match.

 

Many prefer to refuge in theory. As Richard Pryor told his wife when surprised in bed with not her: "Who you gonna believe? Me or your lyin' eyes?"

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

I have heard that holding a dog's head underwater is the correction for a dog going to water when working (the dog is hot and wants to cool down by getting into a water tank, trough, tub, stream, etc.). To have the most impact, the dog is held underwater until it thinks that it's going to die. Unfortunately, there are still "trainers" who feel that this is an appropriate correction for a working dog. I have heard of other barbaric tactics that have been used in years past, and let's hope that all of these methods will soon become extinct (along with the jerks who utilize them).

 

Regards,

nancy

 

 

I've heard this mentioned maybe once or twice over the last 20+ years, never seen it done,...

I was unfortunate to witness this at a trial 5+ years ago.

It was dealt with, not as severely as I would have liked.

[Root Beer]

But I stick by my generalization from the agility trials I have seen at Crufts and in this country that Border Collies are more mannerly at US sheepdog trials; a generalization which can be tested easily on a weekend, by attending a sheepdog trial, an agility trial and an obedience match.

 

Having been to two National Finals, I have to say that I saw nothing any more mannerly about the Border Collies at the sheepdog trial than I see on a regular basis at Agility trials, Freestyle competitions, and Rally trials. I have only been to one obedience trial, and I can't recall there being any Border Collies there, so I can't speak to that.

 

Not to mention the behavior of Border Collies that I see every year at an off leash camp where there are 40+ dogs milling about off leash.

 

Have I seen an occasional Border Collie behaving inappropriately? Of course. But the vast majority of the Border Collies that I see behave pretty much the same way that the Border Collies that I saw hanging about at the sheepdog trials were behaving.

 

Many prefer to refuge in theory. As Richard Pryor told his wife when surprised in bed with not her: "Who you gonna believe? Me or your lyin' eyes?"

 

Exactly. I believe what I see with my own eyes.

 

I am not seeing an vast contingency of undisciplined, unruly, and unmannerly Border Collies in sport contexts.

 

I'll believe it when I see it. I haven't yet.

[Tea]

yeah, smokin...it was tongue in cheek.

 

And Mark- I wish so as well.

 

 

As for unicorns- if it is virgins that attract them it explains why they are so rare.

[terrecar]

Many prefer to refuge in theory. As Richard Pryor told his wife when surprised in bed with not her: "Who you gonna believe? Me or your lyin' eyes?"

 

This works on so many levels. I don't know first hand if sheepdogs are generally better behaved than show/sport dogs, or if sheepdoggers are generally more dog savvy than professional handlers. I would personally rather suspend credulity (or incredulity) until I've actually seen it from first hand experience, rather than repackaging and regurgitating what I read on these boards or elsewhere on the internet, or dismissing the claim off hand (so noted and revised). I have some thoughts, of course. But empiricism trumps rationalism when the premises supporting the latter are incomplete or flawed! I am looking forward to attending a trial for the sheer enjoyment of it though, and I promise to keep my eyes open and my mouth shut

[Cyberdog]

Im sticking wih my guns. We are worried about the wrong end of the leash. Culture dictates which events allow dogs off lead. Dog shows wouldnt permit dogs running willy nilly no matter how well mannered they might be.

[Root Beer]

Im sticking wih my guns. We are worried about the wrong end of the leash. Culture dictates which events allow dogs off lead. Dog shows wouldnt permit dogs running willy nilly no matter how well mannered they might be.

 

And law.

 

If events are held in public venues, as they most often are, state laws must be followed or the organizations will not be permitted to rent the facilities.

 

No matter how mannerly the dogs may be.

 

The trials that I attend that are held on private property often do allow off leash dogs, under control of the handler, at least in certain areas.

[Cyberdog]

Good point.

[PSmitty]

Im sticking wih my guns. We are worried about the wrong end of the leash. Culture dictates which events allow dogs off lead. Dog shows wouldnt permit dogs running willy nilly no matter how well mannered they might be.

 

Ah, yes. Thank you. "Culture dictates". It is what it is, doesn't have to mean that the dogs in one culture (event) are all that different from the dogs in the other culture (event). The problem for me, personally, is people making judgements and generalizations about cultures they are not involved in, from little to no firsthand experience.

[mum24dog]

What do you mean "the dozen"? Are you under the impression that there are only a dozen dogs at our sheepdog trials? Or do you think that only a dozen of the scores-to-hundreds behave well?

 

The "dozen" that Donald McCaig mentioned in an earlier post.

 

Or let me put it another way: in a quarter century of sheepdog trialing, where most dogs are off leash most of the time and handlers routinely pass through packs of a dozen with their dozen, I have never seen a dog fight. Not one.

[mum24dog]

I can't find that post about god makin' dogs? And culling hard....does that mean nuetering and finding a pet home or do you use a .22?

 

Smokejbc's post on the 1st page of this thread.

 

I don't know what culling in terms of animal management means where you are but the majority of people here would assume it meant killing surplus or inferior examples of a species.

[mum24dog]

That's a good question. I find that while my dogs are very comfortable around other Border Collies, they can be less comfy around dogs of other breeds at times.

 

That's why I was wondering. Our own BC is usually OK with other BCs but introductions to other breeds that he may not recognise as fellow canines have to be done carefully - and that's even living with non BCs that he does get on with.

[olivehill]

As a new Border Collie owner, I'm wondering if those of you who have BCs who are wary of other breeds socialized them with other breeds (outside of their own homes where other breeds reside) as puppies? Or if most of their socialization was done at Collie-heavy events? Just curious.

[mum24dog]

As a new Border Collie owner, I'm wondering if those of you who have BCs who are wary of other breeds socialized them with other breeds (outside of their own homes where other breeds reside) as puppies? Or if most of their socialization was done at Collie-heavy events? Just curious.

 

A lot of us didn't get the chance since we have adopted dogs past the critical socialisation period.

[Cynthia P]

I run a sheep farm and run in USBCHA trials. My puppies are socialized with mainly border collies. We also have a Giant Schnauzer, 2 mini schnauzers and an ACD. My puppies have been afraid of Aussies that come here to train. I don't do a good job of socializing beyond border collie trials.

 

Individual dogs tolerate non border collies differently. But in general they tolerate others but are unlikely to engage with them.

 

Many a trial border collie has been freaked out by my Giant Schnauzer. That much facial hair and big and black surely must be evil. They get over it quickly.

 

I'm sure each, from different venues, has different experiences. I have stock handled at AKC events long ago...and the cries of loose dog are on the verge of hysterics.

 

I have also commented how my friends dogs that live in the city are so tolerant of so many things that i don't know if my dogs could handle. So many behaviours I have never taught my dogs...

 

Interesting discussion

[airbear]

As a new Border Collie owner, I'm wondering if those of you who have BCs who are wary of other breeds socialized them with other breeds (outside of their own homes where other breeds reside) as puppies? Or if most of their socialization was done at Collie-heavy events? Just curious.

2 out of my 3 had not really seen anything but a border collie (well, except maybe for a guardian dog) until they came to live with me. Lou was 3, Rex was 2. Both are just fine with other breeds. Rex, in fact, prefers to play with the all-breeds when we run the dogs at agility trials (yes, at some of our trials, we run a whole bunch of dogs off-leash and the world doesn't implode).

[juliepoudrier]

As for unicorns- if it is virgins that attract them it explains why they are so rare.

Oh Tea,

I have a whole herd of unicorns here! Want one?

 

=====================

Mark is probably talking about the same incident I was referring to. That handler still trials and seems to be welcome wherever he goes. That really bothers me. Accepting him is the same as condoning his behavior, IMO.

 

J.

[Tea]

Could be either.

 

 

 

Hence my statement

 

Nueter/ pet home or .22?

 

 

And I think it would depend on the problem. At least to me.

 

 

 

Serious bad health issue or extreme aggressive behaviour- might require a humane death.

 

or maybe a dog that doesn't want to work stock but would make a wonderful pet- nueter and place in a pet home.

 

 

 

I have done horse rescue in years past and sometimes a good death is the best we have to offer. And the learning wisdom of not creating that problem again.

 

either by breeding or training.

 

 

I have had to put animals down many times. And I grieve each time for the life lost- the potential of joy. But at the same time I do not fear death or the ability to give a humane release from life. Sometimes that is all we can offer.

 

 

Smoke will offer their own explaination, I guess.

 

 

 

This is why the forum is helpful it lets people voice their situation and ideas. Hopefully with understanding and patience.

[Mark Billadeau]

Accepting him is the same as condoning his behavior, IMO.

 

J.

That would depend upon whether or not there has been a change in behavior.

[Eileen Stein]

Smokejbc's post on the 1st page of this thread.

 

I don't know what culling in terms of animal management means where you are but the majority of people here would assume it meant killing surplus or inferior examples of a species.

 

Even when the context is not animal management but breeding -- why you don't have to be afraid valuable genes will be lost if you don't breed your dog? And would a majority of people there assume that culling was for temperament, when temperament was not mentioned at all, and the comment was in response to someone who expressed concern that good genes might be lost because the dog's "bad training" had obscured its breedworthiness? And what was it about that statement that would lead people anywhere to conclude that "the turnover [in the US] seems pretty high"?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Rainey is my Delmar x Tess pup...she is 3.5 years old. She is TINY, super biddbable and fast. Nice little working dog that was SLOW to mature...now she can work goats, llamas as well as sheep. She does my backup on lessons and put away the chickens at might. We have said she is filling Tess's shoes, er...paws. She is not the pushy dog on sheep and has a bit more eye than I like but does everything I ask of her on the trial field or at home. I had her "teach" a ram some respect last night that was ramming the other dogs into the ground.

 

Her brother Anson was the top Flyball Border Collie in 2011 and is one of the top ranked flyball dogs now. She is faster than him. He was fixed as part of the deal to the flyball folks. Both is his parent worked sheep, cattle and health clearance done. They also do herding with Anson and will continue.

 

 

I have been approached and could sell an entire litters of her pups to the flyball home. I have six offers of her pups to buy as they want what they see in Anson, aka, Epic, or Goose. They are willing to pay much more than the going working puppy rate.

 

If I wanted some serious money I could bred her each year and make a tidy sum. I have no desire to go down that road.

 

The flyball folks were agast when I said I might fix her. Only one understood my decision and that was the home that I sold Anson to as they are educated on what the breeding is all about.

 

Rainey is superby bred, excellent health clearance but in my eyes, breeding to enhance the breed is my goal and not breeding for flyball is not. Why am I not breeding her...she is a bit soft. I might change my mind later but as of now, she will not be bred.

 

I made my decision to stay on the course to better the breed and not not line my pockets with $$$.

 

I maybe poor money wise but can go to bed at night with a clear mind.

[rushdoggie]

And law.

 

If events are held in public venues, as they most often are, state laws must be followed or the organizations will not be permitted to rent the facilities.

 

No matter how mannerly the dogs may be.

 

 

This.

 

The clubs that I have been involved with who put on agility or obedience trails used fairgrounds, schools, college campuses and parks, and in all cases the ability to hold a show there was contingent upon dogs who were not being exhibited being on lead. As there are not that many places that have the square footage, bathrooms, parking, and proximity to hotels, etc that each club needed we were often very strict on following those rules because we didn't want to lose the venue.

 

I have attended a few sheepdog trials and found the dogs to be very mannerly in the official spectator area, and mostly within the grounds as a whole, but once I did see a dog running loose who ran up to an on leash dog walking past the parking area snarling and growling at him.

 

I have attended hundreds of obedience and agility events over the years and can count the number of times I have seen aggressive behavior from other dogs on 1 hand.

 

Sheepdog trials do not have any more mannerly dogs on average in my experience. And despite Mr. McCaig's assertions, I am not blind.

 

on the other tangent, I do think its possible that a higher % of those who are entered in your average sheepdog event have probably got better "dog savvy" skills as far as understanding dog behavior than your average dog sports competitor, because based on my (limited) understanding of sheepdog training that ability to read and respond and trust your dog is a more integral part of training those behaviors than more basic agility and obedience skills. I know that when I look back to what I knew in 1991 when I entered my first obedience trial to get a CD on my Golden Retriever, I knew so very little. So maybe those getting into a sport and at a novice level might be less knowledgeable.

 

However, theres also a pretty big % of folks at a sports event who have many years of experience training dogs for high levels of competition that require more finesse and understanding of dogs, so I don't believe its a significant difference most of the time.

 

It would be nice if things here devolved less into the "us vs. them" in regards to sports people. I know the culture on this board is more about stockwork, but sometimes its hard not to feel a little insulted. Not be everyone or all the time, of course, but sometimes. I think that more of us have more of the good stuff in common than we have differences.

[Laurae]

It would be nice if things here devolved less into the "us vs. them" in regards to sports people.

 

Hear, hear!

[mum24dog]

And what was it about that statement that would lead people anywhere to conclude that "the turnover [in the US] seems pretty high"?

 

Not specifically in the US, but in the working world as opposed to sports world.

 

Is it not common to start and sell on dogs?

 

Is it not common to get rid of dogs one way or another if they don't come up to scratch? As noone commented adversely on the culling reference it seemed a reasonable inference that culling happens often enough to be considered acceptable.

 

Both contribute to the rate of turnover.

 

I don't know what the rate of disposal of dogs that don't turn out as well as hoped may be in the North American sports world, but here it is very rare - rare enough to be condemned.