Time and Lineage

[DeltaBluez Tess]

A good home whether in a trial or sports home is key. I have NOT sold some of my dogs to some trial folks since their dogs live in an less than ideal living quarters. I have sold a couple of dogs to agility homes that receiver superb care.

 

What I was saying was I have heard the trial people do not care for their dogs while the sports people take much better care of their dogs. People may have seen the *bad apples* in either trial or sports or pets home, then paint the rest with the same broad brush.

 

My last Open dog was sold to me as the prior owner wanted to make sure she would be spoiled and sleep on the couch, etc......she was well loved and taken care of at her last home but he wanted to make she had the same type of life in her new home.

 

 

Love your dogs as they love you.....

[MaryP]

What I was saying was I have heard the trial people do not care for their dogs while the sports people take much better care of their dogs. People may have seen the *bad apples* in either trial or sports or pets home, then paint the rest with the same broad brush.

 

But, this is true of any generalization that paints an entire group with one broad brush. This particular generalization sticks in your mind because it hits close to your heart. Just as the generalizations that "sport people only care about titles and will jeopardize the safety of their dogs to get them" or "rescues have ridiculous adoption criteria and the people who run them don't care about placing the dogs with good people like me" or "pet (or sport) border collies are neurotic messes . . . they are unfulfilled because they are spoiled with fancy treats, toys, and leashes" hits close to my heart.

 

Anytime you make a generalization, it's going to piss the majority of people off who just don't fit the assumptions. And for what it's worth, I hang with mostly pet/sport people and I've never heard anyone say a disparaging word about a working dog person, unless it was warranted (as in the example that Paula gave). But, they would speak poorly of ANY breeder that would hold a dog's head under water to "teach it a lesson".

[PSmitty]

But, this is true of any generalization that paints an entire group with one broad brush. This particular generalization sticks in your mind because it hits close to your heart. Just as the generalizations that "sport people only care about titles and will jeopardize the safety of their dogs to get them" or "rescues have ridiculous adoption criteria and the people who run then don't care about placing the dogs with good people like me" or "pet (or sport) border collies are neurotic messes . . . they are unfulfilled because they are spoiled with fancy treats, toys, and leashes" hits close to my heart.

 

Anytime you make a generalization, it's going to piss the majority of people off who just don't fit the assumptions. And for what it's worth, I hang with mostly pet/sport people and I've never heard anyone say a disparaging word about a working dog person, unless it was warranted (as in the example that Paula gave). But, they would speak poorly of ANY breeder that would hold a dog's head under water to "teach it a lesson".

 

This. Exactly.

[Tea]

Hum.....

 

 

 

My dogs come in the house...

 

4 of them sleep on the bed.

The others sleep where they will......

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Tess steals my pillow, Rainey sleep next to my feet and Maid next to me. Nan sleeps on the bed for a bit then hops off to her dog bed. I wonder why sometimes I wake up, felling all cramped like and then I see Tess ALL stretched out on my side of the bed, while, I dangle over the edge. I tell her to move and she shifts her head a wee bit.

 

Oddly enough, Getty the spouse, who dislikes dogs was the one who decided to get a bigger bed so Tess could sleep on it.....that was the day when I knew the hubby was a real keeper....next thing you know, when the girls have their birthday, they go to MacDonals for a quater pounder cheese and fries.....without me, just the birthday girl and him!

 

Anyone who holds a dog's head underwater, needs a swift boot to their behind! Animal cruelty is so uncalled for.....

[Star]

Geez, the comment about holding a dog's head underwater really irks me. What kind of connection does that person expect the dog to make? Unbelievable. Wonder how he treats his kids. Wish I knew who it was so I could hold his head under water. Grrrrrr.

[NCStarkey]

I have heard that holding a dog's head underwater is the correction for a dog going to water when working (the dog is hot and wants to cool down by getting into a water tank, trough, tub, stream, etc.). To have the most impact, the dog is held underwater until it thinks that it's going to die. Unfortunately, there are still "trainers" who feel that this is an appropriate correction for a working dog. I have heard of other barbaric tactics that have been used in years past, and let's hope that all of these methods will soon become extinct (along with the jerks who utilize them).

 

Regards,

nancy

[bcnewe2]

I've heard of that water trough correction too. Sad. So sad.

 

I've been having a converstation with an open handler that swears I'm doing my dogs harm by letting them live in my house. He says that they need to be dogs in kennels and not think about the big world, just about sheep.

I've finally come up with my answer. If that's what it takes to be a successful handler than I guess I'll never make it.

He swears I stress my dogs cause they are always around me or someone (usually) in the house.

If I leave them outside they will bark and become stressed because I'm not letting them come in. I guess he doesn't see that part. He lets one dog live in his house, his current "best" working dog. But the dog didn't do well enough at the Blue Grass so he's back living outside in a kennel. Now I'm sure the dog gets that connection

 

Hard to get some people to think out of their little boxes. I guess that includes me but I like my box and the dogs like it too!

[PSmitty]

I have heard that holding a dog's head underwater is the correction for a dog going to water when working (the dog is hot and wants to cool down by getting into a water tank, trough, tub, stream, etc.). To have the most impact, the dog is held underwater until it thinks that it's going to die.

 

 

I have so much to say about that, but it's not suitable for this rated PG board. I am simply sickened by this. Even more so because the dog I know it was done to is heat intolerant, so the poor dog REALLY F'ING NEEDED the water.

 

Ugh.

 

Kristin, your conversations with that other handler make me sad, too. I mean, I guess the dogs who are used to kennel life don't know any better, but the whole thought process behind it makes me sad.

[juliepoudrier]

There are people who hold trials that I refuse to attend (and suggest that others not attend) because of just such abuses. One of my biggest sorrows is how little the working stockdog community seems to police its own. People who are abusive are known, and yet others still do business with them, treat them as friends, attend their trials, take lessons, etc. As long as we as a community are not willing to take a real stand against these abuses, they will continue to happen. And when I see these same handlers at big, prestigious trials, especially when they do well, it sickens me, because their success in such endeavors likely validates (at least in their own minds) their abusive methods.

 

I watched a handler at a big trial refuse to let his dog get in water (or even get a drink) because the dog had disobeyed him on the field. Although it occurred to me that dogs who are overheated start making mistakes and seem to stop listening, the handler took it as a personal affront that his dog had stopped listening and so he made the dog suffer after the run was over. Anyone with any idea about training would know that the dog wouldn't make the connection between being refused water and whatever happened out on the field a few minutes earlier, and yet this sort of treatment is pretty much par for the course among a certain set. And the handler put the dog's health at risk just to satisfy his own vindictiveness. Sickening.

 

J.

[Tea]

If I saw someone hold a dogs head underwater. Might cause someone to rethink an Almost a Pacisfist program, and take up water boarding as a hobby.. Thats is not right. Did anyone stop this?

 

I have seen one thing at a trial that upset me. Someone who was putting sheep in the little paddock for set out lost his temper with the sheep. And one other Open handler saw it as well and we both from opposite sides went to stop it. And it srtopped.

 

I guess sometimes this comes down to motivation. What is your motivation for having the dogs. What is your motivation for trialing. By motivation you can see who a person is.

 

My dogs help me put bread on the table. They have stood by my side in tough situations. (Not at trials, trials are for fun, and to improve our work together. When I screw up at a trial...and its always me...not my dogs.....My training or understanding or communication is lacking.....I laugh or frown and walk away and try to learn. But when I see my dog look up at me and with their heart and soul in their eyes ask...'What do you need? I will try! I am Trying!' I know that they are never to blame.)

 

I owe these dogs every loyalty. As they give me theirs without a thought.

[juliepoudrier]

Tea,

In the case I know of, the handler was told to leave the trial.

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Mr/Ms RDM responded to Mr/Ms Waffles' about Julie's dogs: . . ."and that is probably why your dogs are not neurotic messes like a lot of pet dogs. Your dogs are fulfilled in their ways not in the ways people think they need to be (fancy treats, leashes, toys, etc)."

 

Thus:

 

:"Oh baloney. I have known plenty of nasty ass, neurotic working dogs and lots of well adjusted, well mannered pet dogs. And the reverse is also true, of course. If you want to get right down to it, more "pet" people keep and work with their neurotic messes, and more working people just sell those ones, or place them as pets, so maybe it messes with perception."

 

I believe Mr/Ms Waffles is baloney-less: Attend an open sheepdog trial, an agility match, an obedience match and a dog park. Note the Border Collies interacting with their work, their owners and other dogs.In each, determine the percentage of mannerly, amiable, happy dogs?

 

Yep. You'd have to be blind to miss it. Or let me put it another way: in a quarter century of sheepdog trialing, where most dogs are off leash most of the time and handlers routinely pass through packs of a dozen with their dozen, I have never seen a dog fight. Not one.

 

I cannot say whether that rare mannerliness comes from cultural expectations, dog's satisfying their genetics or the kind of training applied so the dog can satisfy its genetics. A combination perhaps.

 

Donald McCaig

[stockdogranch]

At Soldier Hollow (last year, maybe?), it was unusually hot and very humid. On the last day, with the double lift that requires the dog go up that very long and very steep hill (think cross-country ski venue for the '02 Olympics) twice, I watched one "Big Hat" handler's dog have a hard time finding the first packet of sheep. The dog went way, way up behind the sheep, into very steep and brushy country, back and forth, this way and that, with the handler whistling away. After probably 8 minutes (or more), the poor dog FINALLY found the sheep and started bringing them on the fetch. Even from where I was up top, I could see the dog's tongue hanging WAY out, and it was evident the dog was totally spent. The dog was not a super young dog--if I recall correctly, the dog was probably around 8 or so. There was not a ton of time left on the clock, and there had already been some good runs, so this run was nowhere in the competition at this point. I fully expected the handler to let his dog fetch the sheep down to the exhaust and then retire. But, no! He gave his dog the lookback and sent him for the second packet of sheep. The dog struggled around the course until time was called. I was appalled, and my regard for this handler went WAY down that day.

 

A few runs later, another handler was having a decent run, but didn't have a huge amount of time left when all the sheep finished the drive and came into the shed ring for the international shed. This handler got the sheep settled in the ring, and then SENT his dog to the water tank (which was over behind the post) for a dip. After the dog had a bit of cool off (maybe 10 seconds or so), the handler called the dog back and they went to work on the shed. Now, over the years, I had heard that this handler could be very hard on his dogs, but after seeing this incident that day, I can only call this handler a class act. That simple act was probably the most impressive thing I saw that whole weekend.

A

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

At the 91 Sheridan Finals Bruce Fogt had got his Hall of Fame bitch Hope through to the semifinals. She was 11 and had won the Finals 4 years before. Hope was his first great dog.

 

Her sheep missed the crossdrive panel and Bruce quietly walked off. Hope never trialed again.

 

I congratulate Bruce on his success at this year's Blue Grass.

 

 

 

Donald McCaig

[geonni banner]

 

A few runs later, another handler was having a decent run, but didn't have a huge amount of time left when all the sheep finished the drive and came into the shed ring for the international shed. This handler got the sheep settled in the ring, and then SENT his dog to the water tank (which was over behind the post) for a dip. After the dog had a bit of cool off (maybe 10 seconds or so), the handler called the dog back and they went to work on the shed. Now, over the years, I had heard that this handler could be very hard on his dogs, but after seeing this incident that day, I can only call this handler a class act. That simple act was probably the most impressive thing I saw that whole weekend.

A

 

I saw someone do this on one of the Nationals DVDs (2010 or 20110). I was touched and impressed by this too.

 

I also saw one run on one of those DVDs that saddened me. The handler - a large man - did a lot of ill-tempered screaming and when the run was finished the dog scrambled off the field ahead of its handler, tail tucked and head down, and disappeared in the crowd. I don't claim to know a lot about stock dog training, but I can see very plainly when a dog is afraid of its owner.

 

People have told me that I'm hard on my dogs, but I would never do anything to endanger my dog's health or trust in me. There is no excuse for barbaric methods like holding a dog's head under water or making the work that a dog loves most into a torment. Kudos to anyone who steps in to stop such things.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Many years ago when I was just a PN handler, I was exhausting at at nig name trial....during lunch break I went back to my van. I saw a Big Hat try to get his dog into his truck. The dog refused so he grabbed it and threw it in so hard, it bounced right back out. He grabbed the dog again and I yelled at him and he did it again. The dog was crying. Turn out this dog did not do well for him on his run. it was definitly afraid and cowering.

 

I went to the Course Drirector and reported it. They had a talk with him and told him, if he did anything like that he would be kicked out and he was going to be watched from now on. He knew who turned him in. Apparently he had been known for his temper but everyone looked the other way. The CD told me that I had some B***s to go to them and tell them as they had heard about this but not a single person over the years would report it. They told him the next time it would be written up and sent to the USBCHA. That got the point across to him. They kept a close eye on him for a long time. (They had asked me if I would write a report for the USBCHA if they would go that route and I said yes)

 

That handler (I think) hated me for years or very close to that...then he did realize he did have anager management issue and changed his ways. He became nice to me after that and treats his dogs better. We are friends now. He even asked me to judge his trial.

[mum24dog]

Attend an open sheepdog trial, an agility match, an obedience match and a dog park. Note the Border Collies interacting with their work, their owners and other dogs.In each, determine the percentage of mannerly, amiable, happy dogs?

 

Yep. You'd have to be blind to miss it. Or let me put it another way: in a quarter century of sheepdog trialing, where most dogs are off leash most of the time and handlers routinely pass through packs of a dozen with their dozen, I have never seen a dog fight. Not one.

Donald McCaig

 

I have no idea how many agility or obedience trials you have attended but I'm guessing it's considerably fewer than I have and those you will have been to will have been nowhere near the size of ours where a medium, sized show will have upwards of 1000 dogs attending.

 

Then consider that in agility and obedience there will be a wide range of breeds, not just BCs, adding to the scope for friction.

 

Add to the mix the high excitement of competition and the limited space available. And most dogs will be on lead much of the time for practical reasons and because it's the rule, not because they can't be trusted to be let off. Most of us know that the majority of dogs get on better with each other when off lead than they do when restricted.

 

Go to the exercise area where there will be dozens of dogs loose at any time, often more. The BCs usually keep to their own group and most don't interact with or even seem to notice what other people or dogs are doing.

 

Given all that, IME incidents are very rare. It isn't essential to have a well balanced dog to compete but the vast majority that do are no trouble.

 

Make sure you are comparing like with like. Most sports people will keep and work with a less than perfectly tempered dog; many working folk apparently don't and get rid one way or another. The turnover seems pretty high from what I read on here so no wonder you see what you do at trials.

[Pam Wolf]

Mum I did notice that more dogs were kept on lead at UK trials than are here, moreover overall I'd say the handlers had more idea where their dogs were when off lead and kept them close for the most. I have too often been to trials where others dogs come over to swarm my dogs and it is not unusual for dogs to get accidentally bred at trials due to inattentive owners.

 

Off to the cow dog Finals

[PSmitty]

Dog parks are a whole 'nuther story, but I've been to a good amount of agility trials and flyball tournaments, and have yet to see a dog fight. I only volunteered at one or two obedience trials, but no fights there, either. Hmmmm.

 

ETA: I take that back. I did see one dog fight at a flyball tournament. Two dogs crated together, who live together, then decided to start fighting one morning. It was before the tournament even began, but obviously these two had something brewing that reached a boiling point.

[waffles]

When I posted that, I was not referring to the dog owning population who do dog sports. Those people clearly spend time with their dogs in a constructive way and have a sense of training. I was referring to the idea that a large portion of dog owners in this country do literally nothing with their dogs or damn close to it and many are just so negligent it's cruel. I see people every week who let their dogs get so matted they can't go to the bathroom. Dogs that have hundreds (wish I was exaggerating) of fleas on them and owners say "oh I thought he seemed a little itchy", owners who bring their dogs in with huge open soars and are unaware, owners who let their dogs nails grow and curl into the skin, owners who say they have never even walked their dog/taken them outside their yard/exercise or stimulate their minds in any way. We have many dogs who come in covered in their own urine and females with skin sagging on the floor (clearly over bred and living in crates). I see customers let their dogs bark in other customers faces, jump on them, drag them on leash, etc and they giggle like it's funny. I also see people smack their dogs for disobeying them even though the dog was clearly never taught the behavior the owner was asking of them.

 

If you have ever worked with the general dog owning population you would be stunned at the way many dogs are living and treated. Some things are cruel and somethings just make me sad for the dog. Working in a grooming shop for years I see many owners every day and am still stunned at the way many dogs are treated in this country. Many times the owners think there is nothing wrong with their dogs behavior or nothing wrong with their dog being infested with fleas. As a whole though, it seems to be lack of education. Many don't realize that there is even such a thing as flea medication, dog training clubs or that dogs do need to leave the property and go for walks and be socialized in some way. Many just want to coddle and hug their dogs but don't want to put any effort into making the dog happy and balanced. Go work with the general dog owning population for a while and you will be amazed. Trust me, I wouldn't believe half the stuff I have seen over the years before I started working at a shop.

 

I truly think,like the handlers who hold their dogs heads underwater as punishment, it is just a lack of education. And as always, we have wonderful, knowledgeable owners who are amazing.

[mum24dog]

Mum I did notice that more dogs were kept on lead at UK trials than are here, moreover overall I'd say the handlers had more idea where their dogs were when off lead and kept them close for the most.

 

I'm sure it's a space issue as much as anything so we do have a rule that all dogs must be on lead around the rings and camping/day parking areas when not competing. For our show next month we have 35-40 acres and could easily use more.

 

The rule isn't strictly observed by everyone but it isn't normally a big problem if it isn't.

 

Rings are usually just marked out with rope and people and dogs can be passing by on all sides at any time so it would be easy for an off lead dog to stray into a ring even if it is perfectly obedient, especially if it gets a bit crowded.

 

It wouldn't really be practical not to keep an eye on our dogs at all times here. We do get the odd escapee but as a dog roaming unattended isn't normal it is quickly collected and reunited with its owner. It can take a little longer if it is a black and white collie though.

 

Then of course there is a very good chance that there will be sheep in adjoining fields and noone wants their dog shot if it goes walkabout. Somer farmers do shoot first and ask questions later. A couple of weeks ago in Scotland there was just a bit of low wire fencing between a field of ewes and lambs and the camping/parking field. Most agility dogs here pay no attention to sheep but we don't want to take chances.

 

If anything I would say that BCs are under represented in the incident stats, taking into account the large proportion of competing dogs that they comprise in the UK. I can't say the same for terriers though.

 

I do wonder whether the dozen BCs that may behave impeccably at a sheepdog trial would be equally perfect if faced with the conditions that our dogs face all the time.

 

Enjoy the Finals.

[Sue R]

I do wonder whether the dozen BCs that may behave impeccably at a sheepdog trial would be equally perfect if faced with the conditions that our dogs face all the time.

That's a good question. I find that while my dogs are very comfortable around other Border Collies, they can be less comfy around dogs of other breeds at times. For instance, I know that Celt is very ill at ease around very upright dogs with flat faces and round eyes (like Boxers) that tend to stare; or upright dogs with upright ears and hairy faces (like Briards) where he can't see their eyes but the looking-at-him posture is still there.

 

On the other hand, when my dogs are around dogs of other breeds that are laid-back, not flat-faced and/or staring, and so on, they do just fine. Dogs of other breeds that are visiting a sheepdog trial and are well-socialized are not an issue (unless, of course, we return to the flat-faced, upright, staring breeds).

 

I am sure the situation and circumstance have a great deal to do with it. The sheepdogs we see here at trials are experienced in travel, in being off-lead around people and other dogs, and are in a familiar situation even if it isn't a familiar location. And there is usually plenty of room so no one feels bothered by confinement.

 

I did get a bit of a chuckle at the very few non-USBCHA-type events I've been at where the presence of an off-lead dog was an object of concern (even if it was doing nothing to concern anyone but being off-lead) that resulted in shouts of "Loose dog! Loose dog!" like a rabid dog was careening about. But maybe some of that concern was that the dog in question might be wandering and subject to loss or hurt, rather than fear of a loose dog per se.

 

At the Bluegrass last week, there were dogs all over the place with no issues - except at the nearby dog park where quite the melee broke out among the pet dogs...

[airbear]

I do wonder whether the dozen BCs that may behave impeccably at a sheepdog trial would be equally perfect if faced with the conditions that our dogs face all the time.

Mine are.

 

And honestly, although it's lovely to say that no dogs bark at sheepdog trials, that there are no fights, that it's just rainbows and unicorns, that just isn't true. I've been to large trials in Canada and the US (including finals) and I've been lunged at by barking dogs chained to trailers, I've had my chair pissed on in the handler's tent, and I've seen some pretty intense dog fights. It's not the norm, but it ain't that rare either.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Mum wonders, "I do wonder whether the dozen BCs that may behave impeccably at a sheepdog trial would be equally perfect if faced with the conditions that our dogs face all the time."

 

Although I attended several long days at Crufts, that was my one experience of British agility and obedience. Many of Crufts agility Border Collies seemed near-hysterical and I was warned not to get too close to the agility dogs in the parking lot. I have no idea how British sheepdogs would behave away from the trial field and farm.

 

In this country, because (for me) a nearby trial is a six hour drive and two days in a motel (with my dogs) trial dogs must be mannerly in public. Sometimes mannerliness is tested. A couple years ago, I was book touring and to spare Anne, I had two of our dogs with me. I was staying in a middling posh Charlotte hotel and had requested a room close to an exit. Instead I was third floor by elevator.

 

Some people are terrified of dogs and to spare them stepping into an elevator to encounter two Border Collies, I get the dogs out early. Six oclock. I grabbed my plastic room key and exited the back door. Didn't bother to bring a lead. Pouring rain so the dogs made short work of it.

 

Alas, I'd grabbed a credit card, not my room key. So the dogs and I walked around to the front lobby to convince the desk person I was, indeed, a paying guest and needed a spare key. This was made somewhat quicker because the lobby was hosting a Baptist ladies prayer breakfast. I've never seen so many pink outfits in my life. My dogs were very wet and extremely friendly.

 

So here I am smiling at the desk clerk while hissing "Down! Stay! You Down!" until I could get the hell out of that lobby.

 

Early one morning at the Bluegrass. I met Julie Poudier exercising/emptying her dogs in the grass across the parking lot. Some people drive very fast through motel parking lots and some (particularly in Lexington) will be drunk.

 

Yet Julie had four dogs off lead under perfect control. While I admired the way Julie handled her four, trial dogs off lead in urban settings is common here.

 

Donald McCaig