Please help with training

[rsmoree]

I am fairly new to training dogs. I have a self taught method of training that I derived from different books and talking to people over the past few years. I am looking for a book or video with steps on training a dog in basic obedience and would like to see what you all recommend. Thanks

 

 

Scottie

[Smalahundur]

This part of the forum is specifically for discussions about training stockdogs.

You might get more response reposting in de general subforum or the one for obedience agility and flyball.

[rsmoree]

This part of the forum is specifically for discussions about training stockdogs.

You might get more response reposting in de general subforum or the one for obedience agility and flyball.

 

 

Ok, thanks. I was just looking for the method that stock dog trainers use to start out a puppie and do basic obidience. I am going to get a BC for a pet and would like to train her the proper way from the start so if later on I decide to handle stock with her it will all work together. I figured you all could maybe tell me a book or maybe how you started your first dog. Every one has to start some were. I currently only have expirience training squirel dogs for hunting but am looking for a new hobby. Thanks

 

Scottie

[juliepoudrier]

Scottie,

I probably train basic manners/obedience the way many people would, except that in consideration of the stockdog training to come, I make sure the youngster understands corrections. Corrections aren't necessary for pet dog training, at least according to some trainers, but because I will need to use voice/body pressure corrections later in training I do bring a pup up to understand them. For example, if a pup does something I don't like, I will say "hey!" or "ahht" or "ah, ah" to let the pup know that I don't like what it's doing. After such a correction, I may direct the pup to do something else, or I might just leave it alone and let it figure out something else to do. <--This latter is especially important, IMO, for training on stock, where in the beginning I will be giving the dog some feedback but will also largely be letting it figure things out by using its instinct, the reactions of the stock to its actions, and feedback from me when it is doing inappropriate things (which it's my job to try not to let happen). When I start a youngster I'm not chattering to it all the time. If it does something I don't like, I let it know, but as long as it's making mostly good choices, I just let it work and get a feel for stock and for the consequences of its own actions (within reason).

 

For tricks, etc., I will use treats/lures, or whatever else works.

 

J.

[rsmoree]

Scottie,

I probably train basic manners/obedience the way many people would, except that in consideration of the stockdog training to come, I make sure the youngster understands corrections. Corrections aren't necessary for pet dog training, at least according to some trainers, but because I will need to use voice/body pressure corrections later in training I do bring a pup up to understand them. For example, if a pup does something I don't like, I will say "hey!" or "ahht" or "ah, ah" to let the pup know that I don't like what it's doing. After such a correction, I may direct the pup to do something else, or I might just leave it alone and let it figure out something else to do. <--This latter is especially important, IMO, for training on stock, where in the beginning I will be giving the dog some feedback but will also largely be letting it figure things out by using its instinct, the reactions of the stock to its actions, and feedback from me when it is doing inappropriate things (which it's my job to try not to let happen). When I start a youngster I'm not chattering to it all the time. If it does something I don't like, I let it know, but as long as it's making mostly good choices, I just let it work and get a feel for stock and for the consequences of its own actions (within reason).

 

For tricks, etc., I will use treats/lures, or whatever else works.

 

 

 

J.

 

 

Thanks

[Amelia]

Hi Scottie

I raise all my pups to have good manners from day 1. I see too many people whose dogs are disobediant and ill-mannered off the trial field, or at work, and they won't be obedient there if they are not obedient everywhere. After all disobedient is so much more fun, and if you have a dog that wasn't born wanting to please, you're really going to have problems!

 

So, what is good manners? Keeping all 4 feet on the ground all the time. My dogs are never allowed to put their feet on me. Being quiet. My dogs are not allowed to bark at the mailman or anything else. Crate easily and come when they are called, every time. Never pull on the end of a leash no matter what is going on. No aggression is allowed except occasional snarking among themselves regarding hierarchy. My dogs may not show any agression what so ever towards humans for any reason at all. Tie out easily and without fussing even in the presence of stock. My dogs know when it's their turn and wait patiently. Ride/kennel quietly in the truck.

 

I enforce these rules even on the youngest pups. Harsh or scary isn't necessary, but you must be absolutely, 100% consistent. The degree to which you are consistent will dictate your degree of success.

 

Good luck and have fun!

[rsmoree]

Hi Scottie

I raise all my pups to have good manners from day 1. I see too many people whose dogs are disobediant and ill-mannered off the trial field, or at work, and they won't be obedient there if they are not obedient everywhere. After all disobedient is so much more fun, and if you have a dog that wasn't born wanting to please, you're really going to have problems!

 

So, what is good manners? Keeping all 4 feet on the ground all the time. My dogs are never allowed to put their feet on me. Being quiet. My dogs are not allowed to bark at the mailman or anything else. Crate easily and come when they are called, every time. Never pull on the end of a leash no matter what is going on. No aggression is allowed except occasional snarking among themselves regarding hierarchy. My dogs may not show any agression what so ever towards humans for any reason at all. Tie out easily and without fussing even in the presence of stock. My dogs know when it's their turn and wait patiently. Ride/kennel quietly in the truck.

 

I enforce these rules even on the youngest pups. Harsh or scary isn't necessary, but you must be absolutely, 100% consistent. The degree to which you are consistent will dictate your degree of success.

 

Good luck and have fun!

 

 

Amelia, I agree 100 % with you and that is what I want. I guess I am torn between William R. Kohler and Positive reward training and I dont know were to go from here. Please suggest a book/video that will help me achieve what you have on the basics and I will start from there. I know a lot of people don't like the old school Koehler method but that was all I was ever tought and I don't want to ruin a good dog. I believe you will always have to use some sort of correction to have a good handling ,off leash dog. I want to be in the middle not to hard or soft. Thanks for the input. I hope no one takes this as a argument of old school verses new. I am just looking for good solid ,expirienced advice to do it correctly.

 

 

Scottie

[dahle50]

Amelia, I agree 100 % with you and that is what I want. I guess I am torn between William R. Kohler and Positive reward training and I dont know were to go from here. Please suggest a book/video that will help me achieve what you have on the basics and I will start from there. I know a lot of people don't like the old school Koehler method but that was all I was ever tought and I don't want to ruin a good dog. I believe you will always have to use some sort of correction to have a good handling ,off leash dog. I want to be in the middle not to hard or soft. Thanks for the input. I hope no one takes this as a argument of old school verses new. I am just looking for good solid ,expirienced advice to do it correctly.

 

 

Scottie

[/quot

 

Hi Scottie

If you are interested in the Koehler method you can find books on ebay..also there are Koehler trainers around. Go to koehlerdogtraining.com. Tony Ancheta will help you out. I think you should also consider finding a trainer who specialises in BCs.

Good luck

Chris NJ

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Mr/Ms Scottie,

 

To some extent it depends on your goals. If you want a reliable, mannerly dog, Koehler is better than Skinner/Pryor training. If you want to feel beneficent and are willing to employ more management, Skinner/Pryor is just the ticket.

 

Both methods, however, depend on physical control - leashes or tieouts - and stockdog training is off lead. Some scottish hill dogs may never have worn a collar.

 

Pet dog training methods are adapted to all-breed, all background, with dog-ignorant owners. Your Border Collie has been bred for hundreds of years to please humans and the sheepdog community is both dog savvy and friendly. At a sheepdog trial, you may notice that dogs aren't pulling, barking, snarking, biting, or doing unmannerly things because their owners don't tolerate rude behavior.

 

Speaking for myself: I want a puppy that will come every time. Before the pup is 8 weeks, I get within his attention span, make myself inviting and call. When he comes, much praise. If his focus is on that interesting bug, I break the focus (clap hands, shout etc) make myself inviting and . . . I walk him with the others occasionally calling him during increasing distractions. Every sane Border Collie will lie down, on command if you loom over them. Praise, release. When the pup's maybe 2 months old, I clip him to a fence with a steel lead and leave. I ignore his howling until he quiets down and without fuss release him. A couple days later I do it again.

 

He already follows me, comes when called, undertands he cannot escape the leash and is accustomed to verbal corrections so nopull leash training is a snap.

 

He was mothered in a half (500) crate and spent time in the reconstituted crate with his sibs. So he's already crate trained and partly housebroken.

 

The only other thing I teach before I try him on sheep is a "get behind" which is pretty easy. When I say "get behind", the pack falls in and he's the only outlier.

 

Same strategy with "stay". If the others are "staying", it'll be uncomfortable not staying.

 

That's the only formal "obedience" I teach my dogs and they've slept in fine hotels and tents. The rest is my patience and high expectations. If they know the world and are comfortable with your expectations you can take them anywhere.

 

Donald McCaig

[rsmoree]

Thanks Mr. Donald, I see you have a good system.

 

 

Scottie

[Amelia]

Please suggest a book/video that will help me achieve what you have on the basics and I will start from there.

 

I'm Sorry, Scottie, I've never read a book or watched a vid on how to train manners. I've learned from my mistakes and those of others, my own intuition, and common sense.

 

Best,

[Smalahundur]

If you intend to work stock take a look at "herding dogs, progressive training" by Vergil S. Holland.

It is my bible at the moment, and it has a good chapter on basic obedience for the stockdog. It´s a pretty short chapter though

[Jeanne Joy]

Two good books to start with are (and you'll be glad you did):

 

How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With, 4th Edition (by Clarice Rutherford and David Niel) and

Building Blocks for Performance, 2nd Edition (by Bobbie Anderson and Tracy Libby): http://www.alpinepub...vior_books.html

 

They are published by Alpine Publications: http://www.alpinepub.com/

They are also available on Amazon and at Dogwise.

 

All the best,

jeanne

[rsmoree]

Two good books to start with are (and you'll be glad you did):

 

How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With, 4th Edition (by Clarice Rutherford and David Niel) and

Building Blocks for Performance, 2nd Edition (by Bobbie Anderson and Tracy Libby): http://www.alpinepub...vior_books.html

 

They are published by Alpine Publications: http://www.alpinepub.com/

They are also available on Amazon and at Dogwise.

 

All the best,

jeanne

 

 

Thanks, I will get them coming

 

Scottie

[dahle50]

Try these books:

 

Monks of New Skete (2001-05-15). How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend: A Training Manual for Dog Owners

 

*The Monks of New Skete, The Art of Raising a Puppy (Boston: Little, Brown, 1991).

 

The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs

Patricia B McConnell Ph.D

 

Patricia B McConnell Ph.D.;Aimee M Moore. Family Friendly Dog Training: A Six Week Program for You and Your Dog:

 

 

Williams, Tully (2007-04-26). Working Sheep Dogs: A Practical Guide to Breeding, Training and Handling .

 

I found these books very helpful and informative

 

Best

Chris

[terrecar]

If you intend to work stock take a look at "herding dogs, progressive training" by Vergil S. Holland.

It is my bible at the moment, and it has a good chapter on basic obedience for the stockdog. It´s a pretty short chapter though

 

I would recommend this book as well, even if (like me) you do not work stock and likely never will. The book is interesting. In fact, I got the first chapter as a free sample from my Kindle, simply out of curiosity, then bought the book because I wanted to read more. If you are interested in dogs and handling them, and if you want some basic information on herding, I think you will find the book a good read. Aside from that, the author not only knows dogs, but he genuinely respects them; it shows through in his writing.

[Jeanne Joy]

Scottie,

 

You might also enjoy reading some of my blog posts for Working Ranch Magazine - Training the Working Ranch Dog:

http://workingranchtv.com/blog/355

 

As always,

jeanne

[Liz P]

I would avoid the Monks of New Skeet.

 

This is a great free training resource. www.dogstardaily.com

[dahle50]

That looks like a good resource Jeanne..I will check it out too!

 

Chris

 

You might also enjoy reading some of my blog posts for Working Ranch Magazine - Training the Working Ranch Dog:

http://workingranchtv.com/blog/355

 

As always,

jeanne

[dahle50]

I would avoid the Monks of New Skeet.

 

Out of curiosity, why would you avoid the Monks of New Skeet?

 

 

Chris

[Liz P]

The book you suggested has outdated training methods that even the monks now admit are not recommended.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Although clicker and ecollar gurus argue passionately and loudly that their methods/tools are more up-to-date/modern/scientific than those wicked/ignorant old methods, in dog training there's not much new under the sun. Dogs are not being trained better/more reliably than they were in the 19th century. Often, because owners are technophiles or sentimentalists the dogs are trained worse.

 

In the 1820's James Hogg described Sirrah, a dog I'd be happy to own today.

 

Sure, photographs and videos are spanking new (Nobody is wearing nehru suits or other funny clothes), conference speakers send text messages during breaks and lost dogs can be tracked by gps and reunited by implanted chips. But training still comes down to human meets dog and the human's learned ability to "see" the dog. We can't do that any better than James Hogg did.

 

 

One of the best pet dog training books I've read is Blanche Saunders "Training you to train your dog" You can get it on Bookfinder.com for $4 including postage. It's kind, sensible and effective and predates the clicker and ecollar gurus by sixty years.

 

Donald McCaig

[terrecar]

One of the best pet dog training books I've read is Blanche Saunders "Training you to train your dog" You can get it on Bookfinder.com for $4 including postage. It's kind, sensible and effective and predates the clicker and ecollar gurus by sixty years.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Wow, there's a blast from the past. I cut my teeth on Blanche Saunders (God I'm old). I think there are better ways to introduce a dog to the heel position (for pet owners), if I'm remembering her method correctly. However, at the time, I think she was one of the best.

 

As far as Skinner's methods being new to dog training, they really aren't all that new, although the popularity of such methods have caught on with pet dog trainers more recently. I was introduced to John Romba around 1972, I think, and he was supervising the training of army dogs for mine detection at Aberdeen Proving Ground using operant conditioning back then. Also, when I helped out a shelter by taking a dog through obedience class many years ago, the instructor was a trainer for guide dogs. I can't remember her name, but she was using operant conditioning as well.

[dahle50]

Dear Donald

Thank you about the tip about Blanche Saunders book! I went to bookfinder and ordered it: I find it interesting everybody's input about training dogs..each breed needs to be evaluated separately to be trained, and each dog is a individual personality that also needs to be evaluated separately. A GSD will need a different type of obedience training than lets say a fox terrier..tho at points the training will overlap as far as concepts are concerned. BC's are very intelligent and need a different approach (I find them more sensitive) not meaning to generalize tho..One thing I have learned is that there is no fast easy way to train...and having a large repertoire in training methods is helpful in different situations.. IMHO

 

Best

Chris

 

 

 

One of the best pet dog training books I've read is Blanche Saunders "Training you to train your dog" You can get it on Bookfinder.com for $4 including postage. It's kind, sensible and effective and predates the clicker and ecollar gurus by sixty years.

 

Donald McCaig

[dsmbc]

Scottie, whichever training method you use, consistency is the most important thing you need. The main reasson people fail their dogs is that they are not consistent. Sometimes you have to sit at the gate and wait to be released and sometimes you don't..kind of thing. if you are not consistent, your dog never understands the rules and they don't trust you. Trust is key in working stock. A book I love is Ruff Love by Susan Garrett -- I know folks on this board hate her, but the book is good and helps beginners create a consistent structured way of life for your dog - not just obedience tricks - but training for everyday life so your dog learns self control - no jumping on people, waiting at doors and gates to be released, etc. using it with my young pup and it is pretty amazing how quickly he is catching on.