Bossy Pup

[emwmck11]

Luka is only 13 weeks and she just cant stand when another dog gets close to her or in her face, she never goes out of her way to get at them but will almost always snap if they are in her "bubble."

It doesn't matter what energy the dog is even if a mellow dog comes up and sniffs her face she will likely 'let the demon out.'

But the higher the energy the worse her reaction is.

My roommate has a 5 week old foster pup that she is raising and last night Luka pinned her down and freaked out on her.

Has anyone else experienced this? Please tell me we aren't the only ones!

[beachdogz]

I would like to hear more about Luka. What breed is she? At what age did you get her? Where did you get her (breeder, shelter, rescue, friend.) Did you see the parents? What do you know about the parents? What do you know about her history? Is she from a one-puppy litter? The more information you give, the better someone can evaluate the situation.

[emwmck11]

Luka is a pure BC, she was in a litter of 6(?) and was the last one there when we got there. We got her at 8.5 weeks and got her from a lady in a near by town that had a litter. Her dad works on a farm in southern Indiana and her mother is just a 'farm dog'. The mom was on site and I got to meet her, she instantly came up and sat on my lap (I was in the grass) but she was giving my friend the eye and I was told she took a while to warm up to men. They also told me that Luka was the BOSS of the litter and had named her angel when she was born, but later realized she was no angel. ??? (I should of asked more into this) She loves people and is not scared of anyone, and doesn't seem to be scared of the dogs she doesn't like, she just acts like she is better than every other dog and is super snooty towards them.

We have two other dogs and she gets along with them just fine and always has.. weird right?

[Jexa]

Not necessarily weird. I'd want to know how these dogs are acting around her- it's possible they're the rude ones. Some dogs just have a low threshold for personal space, just like people. It's also possible she's more dominant than other dogs, and is simply letting them know. That might explain why she's fine with your other dogs- they already know she's in charge.

 

Bottom line, I think it's hard to decipher her behavior without knowing the particulars.

[emwmck11]

We were working all day on her 'greeting' another dog and she was guarding me from the other dog.. so I think we found our issue.. She doesn't want any other dogs getting close to me.. We but her in the yard and monitored her reaction, and yea she hates when they are in her face, but is just fine when I'm not standing with her

[Urban Borders]

I don't know exactly what you mean by "freaking out," but there are only really two possible explanations for the reaction you are describing: very inappropriate play behavior or (much more likely) aggression due to fear. If you have a 13 week old puppy with overt aggression, you have a very, very serious problem on your hands. If your dog is growling, has dilated pupils, piloerection, has a tucked tail, etc in the same situations as or before the snapping, fear is much more likely the cause. It is unlikely that she is defending YOU...dogs are often socially facilitated by the presence of their owners, which makes them more confidant and more likely to aggress. But they are aggressing to defend themselves, because they are afraid.

 

Honestly, it would be of great benefit for a person who really understands dog body language (such as a trainer or veterinary behaviorist) to watch your dog's reaction to other dogs/talk with you about it. This is NOT dominance, and not likely even status-related if she is displaying it towards unfamiliar dogs. IF this is aggression, then your dog is very, very afraid, and she needs your help. The sooner you get her the help she needs, the better, since fear and aggression will usually continue to worsen until a dog is 3 to 4 years old...which means she has a lot of time to become more proactive and potentially dangerous.

 

 

We were working all day on her 'greeting' another dog and she was guarding me from the other dog.. so I think we found our issue.. She doesn't want any other dogs getting close to me.. We but her in the yard and monitored her reaction, and yea she hates when they are in her face, but is just fine when I'm not standing with her

[emwmck11]

We went to her play group again Wednesday. Our trainer advised us to go since she needs more socialization than our others did. For the first 35 minutes she hides under my chair. Will come out, run over to some to get petted then run back under my chair. By freaking out I mean snapping, showing teeth, and growling. She only did this when a large lab was barking at her when she was under my chair.. She was lunging out ever time he barked and snapping her teeth. He was a very obnoxious dog and wouldn't stop barking at her. For the last bit of the play time she comes out and will play with a toy by herself, but the second someone comes close she returns to my chair. She isn't aggressive and I don't worry about her being out of control. She just has no tolerance for dogs that are overactive/in her face.

I just wondered if anyone else has had a weirdly antisocial pup.

[gcv-border]

We went to her play group again Wednesday. Our trainer advised us to go since she needs more socialization than our others did. For the first 35 minutes she hides under my chair. Will come out, run over to some to get petted then run back under my chair. By freaking out I mean snapping, showing teeth, and growling. She only did this when a large lab was barking at her when she was under my chair.. She was lunging out ever time he barked and snapping her teeth. He was a very obnoxious dog and wouldn't stop barking at her. For the last bit of the play time she comes out and will play with a toy by herself, but the second someone comes close she returns to my chair. She isn't aggressive and I don't worry about her being out of control. She just has no tolerance for dogs that are overactive/in her face.

I just wondered if anyone else has had a weirdly antisocial pup.

 

I am not an expert in dog behavior, but after reading this thread and other related threads in the past, I think that your dog is extremely fearful.

 

Not sure what your definition of 'antisocial' is, but to me, 'fearful' is very different than 'antisocial'.

 

Jovi

[waffles]

Your pup isn't anti-social, she is really fearful.

 

I don't know what kind of socialization class you went to but there is no way I would go to one where my dog was allowed to hide and get cornered repeatedly by other dogs who are barking and snapping at my dog. This is just a set up to make her more fearful. The humans should intervene immediately and remove the annoying dog from your dogs face. This way your pup will learn that she does not need to go overboard with her reactions because someone will step in for her. She should not have to fend off a big barking lab for that long on her own. Don't allow your fearful pup to be cornered and irritated over and over again by a rude dog. I would also suggest not sitting down during a social class, this just causes dogs to be cornered. If you ever go to a dog park and see all the owners standing still at the doorway talking, you will see a lot of times dogs all pooled up there as well. Move and walk around, it will keep the dogs moving and will help get your dog out from hiding under a chair and getting bullied.

[urge to herd]

I mentioned this in my first response, but it bears repeating. Borde collies usually have a larger 'personal space bubble' around them. This is a breed trait, not anti-social behavior.

 

It does sound like she is very fearful in addition to that. Your job, as her owner, is to make her feel safe. Right now, she doesn't.

 

Please work with a trainer who has successfully worked with fearful dogs. What you're doing now is not working for her. Get help and back off from taking her places where she feels compelled to lunge and bark at other dogs.

 

Not all dogs like other dogs. Luka may be one of them. Not all dogs want to play with other dogs. There's nothing wrong with that. Right now, Luka is 'freaking out' when another dog 'gets in her face'. There's a huge probability that if you continue to allow other dogs to do this, she's going to start 'freaking out' at the sight of another dog, no matter how far away.

 

Please, please, please look for a different approach, more suited to Luka.

 

Ruth

[Root Beer]

To the OP - my responses below might seem blunt, but my intention is simply to be straightforward and to the point.

 

You have an excellent opportunity to learn from this puppy. The first lesson is to learn to listen to her.

 

For the first 35 minutes she hides under my chair. Will come out, run over to some to get petted then run back under my chair.

 

Clue #1 - Dog is hiding.

 

Meaning - dog is scared.

 

By freaking out I mean snapping, showing teeth, and growling.

 

Clue #2 - Dog is freaking out.

 

Meaning - dog is trying to communicate that she is scared, uncomfortable, and needs to find some measure of safety.

 

She only did this when a large lab was barking at her when she was under my chair..

 

Clue #3 - Dog is being barked at by a dog that is being permitted to harass her

 

Meaning - someone needs to remove the barking dog, your dog needs some measure of safety

 

She was lunging out ever time he barked and snapping her teeth.

 

Clue #4 - Dog is reacting in a proactive way to being harassed. Apparently nobody else is doing this.

 

Meaning - someone needs to remove the barking dog, your dog needs some measure of safety.

 

He was a very obnoxious dog and wouldn't stop barking at her.

 

Clue #5 - The other dog is being permitted to harass other dogs

 

Meaning - This is not an appropriate environment for a dog who does not enjoy or feel safe in such situations.

 

For the last bit of the play time she comes out and will play with a toy by herself,

 

Clue #6 - Dog enjoys play by herself

 

Meaning - Provide her opportunities to play by herself. One way to "socialize" her would be to allow her to play by herself near other dogs who will not harass her. You can allow her to interact or not interact, but to learn to feel safe around dogs who will ignore her.

 

but the second someone comes close she returns to my chair.

 

Clue #7 - Dog ceases to play and hides when other dogs come near

 

Meaning - She is uncomfortable/scared of dogs in her space.

 

She isn't aggressive and I don't worry about her being out of control.

 

Continue to subject her to this and that's most likely where you are headed. She is learning - every time you allow dogs to bark at her while she is hiding, or to get in her face when she is uncomfortable - that she needs to take matters into her own hands to ensure her safety and personal space. As she becomes more adept at it, fear aggression, or extreme reactivity, is the logical outcome.

 

She is not going to suddenly learn to love these situations.

 

There are ways to help dogs who prefer more personal space become more confident and comfortable in social situations, but they often do not learn to love being barked at or having dogs in their face. And that's not as weird or unusual as it might seem to you right now.

 

She just has no tolerance for dogs that are overactive/in her face.

 

Why should she? If she doesn't like dogs up in her face, why are you allowing dogs to get up in her face? Why do you consider this to be necessary?

 

I'm not asking you these questions because I want you to answer them to me, but to think them over for yourself.

[RoseAmy]

Kristen was right on.

 

BUT she left out one little thing..

 

YOU NEED TO GET AWAY FROM THAT TRAINER AND PUPPY CLASS AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!!

 

Whoever is running it has no idea about dog training and puppies. Your puppy is being abused by the other dog..

[beachdogz]

I am with the majority who say to remove her from this playgroup and look for an alternative. I think Root Beer covered all the points exactly.

 

How long has she been in this playgroup? Is this where the problem began? If so, I can see why. I am not getting a good understanding on how this playgroup works. Do the owners sit in chairs and just let their dogs socialize out on the floor as a free-for-all?

 

She is still young enough to readily fix the problem if the problem has been environmental (like bad experiences at a puppy class) and not genetic. You say she gets along great with your other two dogs....what are their breeds and ages? And what is their relationship like with her?

[mbc1963]

Root Beer is RIGHT. And as another owner of a fearful and reactive dog, I agree with everything she typed.

 

Contrast your socialization class with what my trainer did for Buddy:

 

1) He came to my house to meet my dog - who was, at that point, about 2 years old and had lived on the streets for most of his life (from what we know) and was then in loud, crowded shelter environments for about 2 months. After watching my dog from a distance for about 1 hour, he then came on a walk with us and observed my dog's behavior to stimuli. At that point, he said that he felt my dog was fearful and reactive, rather than aggressive.

 

2) He allowed my dog to come to a puppy training class, but provided a chair in a quiet spot in the room where my dog and I could simply watch the commotion. We came early, and the trainer just sat calmly and slipped Buddy tuna fish (from his sandwich), because Buddy was scared of him as well as every other human.

 

Buddy was tethered to me and hid under a folding chair, as you describe, for perhaps 10 or 15 minutes that first time. The trainer kept his eye on Buddy, and when he felt like Buddy was over his threshold - pushed beyond the limits of his endurance - he had me walk Buddy out and leave the room.

 

3) The next class, Buddy hid under the chair again for a while, but managed to stay longer. This continued from week to week. The key was always watching Buddy for signs that he was over his threshold, and as soon as he reached that point (or - hopefully! - just before he reached that point!) he was removed to a calm, quiet environment.

 

4) By the end of the 6 week class, Buddy was able to do a little bit of on-leash walking around the room as the other puppies were moving - but we made sure that there was ALWAYS a big space between Buddy and the other dogs/puppies. He was never required to interact with another dog unless he was making the choice - by pulling toward the other dog.

 

5) After the first round of classes, Buddy did a second puppy class with this guy - maybe 2 months later. During the second class, he was actually able to participate in most of the training, and didn't get over threshold at all, as long as he had his space.

 

The concept of threshold of stimulation is KEY in a reactive dog. Once over threshold, it is not possible for the dog to respond normally to any situation. And the threshold has a lot of variables. A single dog barking at a distance of 20 meters might be fine - but 2 dogs barking at the same distance might be over threshold. A single, calm dog at 2 meters might be fine, while an active dog at 10 meters might be over threshold. For Buddy, a play session with a single familiar dog is fine - but toss another familiar dog into the mix, and it turns into a fight - there's just too much distraction and chaos for Buddy to process.

Noise, activity level, posturing... they all play into what my dog finds to be "too much."

 

The best thing I learned to do was advocate FOR Buddy: say, "It's too much now," and walk away. He learned that he can trust ME to make him safe, and people even comment that they see him checking with me on things - as if to say, "Is this OK, Mom?"

 

Good luck! Advocate for your pup, and you will be his best friend in navigating the scary world.

 

Mary

[Jexa]

Root Beer is RIGHT. And as another owner of a fearful and reactive dog, I agree with everything she typed.

 

 

seconded, though my pup is usually fine with other dogs and terrified of most humans. I also agree that finding that threshold and being willing to remove your dog when that point is reached is everything. I ranted on here a couple weeks ago about having to practically physically push my friends away from Rudder after they backed him under the car. He was calm and relaxed with them a few feet away ignoring him, but freaked when they approached him (after I explicitly told them not to ).

 

My biggest worry with Rudder was that his fear would turn to aggression if not handled properly. He's still not the world's most outgoing dog and may never be- that's ok. But we're using the principles several people have mentioned, and by slowly working on increasing his tolerance for people, without letting him get pushed over the edge, he's MUCH less scared around strangers and getting better all the time. I think the key is that I'm not afraid to stop an encounter if I think he's being pushed too far.

 

 

For your situation, maybe think about it this way: would you have let the other dogs' owners yell at your dog, invade her personal space when it obviously made her unhappy, and push her around and bully her? Because that's what their dogs were doing. If the owners or trainer weren't intervening, you needed too. She was hiding under your chair hoping for help from you. It's not going to help her confidence or fear if you don't stop those situations.

[Root Beer]

My biggest worry with Rudder was that his fear would turn to aggression if not handled properly. He's still not the world's most outgoing dog and may never be- that's ok. But we're using the principles several people have mentioned, and by slowly working on increasing his tolerance for people, without letting him get pushed over the edge, he's MUCH less scared around strangers and getting better all the time. I think the key is that I'm not afraid to stop an encounter if I think he's being pushed too far.

 

That really is the key.

 

There is a school of thought that says that if the approaching person backs off, then either the dog learns to get "their way" (as if fear is equivalent to being stubborn, which it is not) or that the fear will be reinforced.

 

My experience has been the opposite. What I've seen is that over time the dog learns to trust the handler. The dog learns that the handler has the situation under control. Then confidence grows and the dog eventually gets to the point where he or she is willing to try getting a little bit closer and try new ways (slowly) of interacting with humans.

 

It's beautiful to watch unfold. But it does require some patience, and willingness to listen to the dog and, sometimes, being a bit firm with other people.

 

Jexa, you might want to look into a program called TACT (by Emma Parsons). I don't have firsthand experience with it, but it is a program that is in line with the principles that you describe in your post, and it is designed especially for dogs who have fear issues with people. There is a DVD out, and if you can swing it, you might find it worth your while. I am hoping to get it and study it a bit this coming summer.

 

To the OP, you might want to look into a program called BAT (by Grisha Stewart). There are several DVD's out, and a book. BAT is specifically designed for dogs like yours, who have issues with dogs in their personal space, and who react in the way that you describe. BAT is also for handlers like you who are considering how a dog who needs some personal space can appropriately interface with other dogs in social situations. Like TACT, I don't have firsthand experience with it, although I have read the book and I would not hesitate to follow the program, if needed in the future, but I personally know several people who have used the program with great success.

[emwmck11]

Its been a while since I've posted. But I thought I would give an update on Luka.

--We ran away from that 'play group' fast! And straight to a trainer who knew what to do with a reactive/fearful dog. With lots of patience, she is now comfortable enough to be herself & even play around other dogs. (She is my first Border Collie, and I was quite blind to the sensitivities she has).

She is now in classes working along side of other dogs. We have learned to enjoy the presence of others, and ignore those that she doesn't like. Working with dogs has taught her to associate the things she loves with being around dogs.

Thank you for all of the comments and concerns about my poor judgements in the first month of having Luka.

It has motivated me to be a better owner.

Emily

[Jexa]

Wonderful news! Thanks for the update!

[gcv-border]

Awesome news! Many kudos to you!

 

One saying I have heard: "You may not get the dog you want, but you get the dog you need." I think there is a bit of truth to it. When you get a dog that is different than what you 'wanted' or expected, it can be an opportunity to expand your knowledge of dog behavior, body language, dog training, etc. You have been given this opportunity, and both you and your dog benefited from it.

 

Jovi

[urge to herd]

(tossing virtual 'treats' to you and Luka both!)

 

Good job! I'm glad to hear that the two of you are doing so well. Thanks for the update, we'd love to hear more about Luka and you get on together.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[juliepoudrier]

This is great news. Thank you for taking the advice here as it was meant and turning the situation into a good one for you and Luka. Kudos to you!

 

J.