MaryP Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 No, I don't want the 1% speaking for all of us, But if the nut jobs willing to pay $5000 are the most active and vocal bunch, then they end up representing the whole community, at least in the eyes of outsiders. But, they aren't. They are a very small minority. That's just a fact. And though it seems nuts to you and I and most other people, calling them nut jobs is, again, a bit presumptuous. If they have the money and they see the value in dropping that kind of coin on the training, who are we to make judgments about their mental health or motivation? Yes, agility and conformation are different. But elite cliques that you have to pay thousands of dollars to join? That reeks of, well, elitism...which I would argue the AKC had cornered up until now, with regards to the dog world. One of the best things about agility is that it's generally open to everyone, regardless of breed, social status, or income (think of the early trainers who built equipment from spare parts). I don't want that changing anytime soon. But, that's the thing. You don't HAVE to do anything. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you have to pay for outrageously-priced training in order to be one of the cool kids. And cliques and elitism exist in all walks of life. The AKC certainly does not have the monopoly on that one. And again, AKC is just ONE of many agility venues out there. And what does the AKC have to do with this topic anyway? Since the better half of the team sees no value in them. So what? My dog gets "cookies" at the end of every run (even bad ones). I [occasionally] get a ribbon. How is this detrimental to the dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I typed out a sensible reply, but then I got distracted by my dog and I deleted it I have spent for my budget, a lot of money on agility, and at this stage it is not about training my dog, but training the human half of the team, learning timing etc, you all know what is involved. I compete for me, not my dogs, my dog can run the course and q without shaving time by getting a good line, tight turns, or me driving him into the tunnel, or sprinting down the dogwalk with him, but learning to run hard, fast and clean is fun. There are any number of activities that make my boys happy, hiking, swimming, frisbee, hanging on the bed with a human, even learning a new trick, they are all free! The boys would be fine if we stopped agility. I would miss it. I see nothing wrong in being competitive, I was raised in the UK when being a good looser ( as well as winner) was an important character trait, you played sport to win, but if you did not, the world did not end, you shook hands and moved on. I feel that way about agility, I enter the ring to do the best I can, and hope that I provide my partner with the clear information so that he does not get mad at me for being slow on the directions, the Q and the placement ribbon are my cookies for a good job, and of course the rush you get when it just feels right, but I think the dogs share that feeling. If I was seriously wealthy would I spend $5000.00 on a training class, I would have to say for the right trainer yes. For some $5000 is not a lot of money. But I need to win the lottery first! But I still think it is nuts for what she is offering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I hate my DROID! Really really hate it! Now that it deleted my message for the umpteenth time. >:-( On to what I was going to say... 1st. Yes my experience agility dog DOES know when she has done a good job or not. Maybe its the atmosphere of the trial or my subtle body language but she knows something happen. When we Q she wants to tug for like 5-10 minutes. When we NQ she isn't interested pass a quick tug. Even her body language shows the difference in a Q or NQ. A Q mean she prances with her tail up and ears pricked. Lol quite full of herself. On a NQ her tail is down and she is calm. 2nd. As to the ribbon being meaningless to the other half of the team... what does the toy you win or the treats you win really mean to the human aspect? In my parts when the team Q's both members of the teams gets rewarded. The dogs gets a toy/treat and the human a ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Thank you, Mary. I wanted to address what Frogs & Dogs had posted earlier, but didn't have time. You pretty much covered it, and very well! While I agree that $5000 is crazy to charge, and even crazier to pay, it doesn't represent the vast (very vast) majority of agility handlers out there. Yes, even the evil AKC agility handlers! Regardless of how one feels about AKC, to make judgements about those of us who participate in AKC agility by implying we all treat our dogs like objects that are only around to get us to the right level to feed our ego (status symbols) is pretty crappy, not to mention wrong. I also disagree that there's anything wrong with being competitive and wanting to win something that you like to do. It doesn't mean you have to lose sight of the important part (fun times with your dog). Many people do agility just for fun, and don't care to trial, or Q, or win. Some of us try over time to improve our handling skills, and be the best we can be at it, and yes, that includes being competitive and sometimes bringing home ribbons. There is nothing that proves people in group 2 love their dogs any less, or treat them any differently, than people in group 1. I drive a 2 hours round trip once a week to take agility classes with someone who has a pretty damned good agility resume, and makes her living from it. I spend a good bit of money to do so, and I like to do well at trials (not that I ususally do, lol). But, doing so doesn't mean that I don't value my better half of the agility team above ALL else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Okay, this from a person who has never entered an Agility trial and most likely never will! I signed up for an agility class with my Elsie for the simple reason that I want to spent time with her. The place I did sign up with is considered a place where "Pet People" hang out 99% of the agility people in my area are soooooo snobish and cliquish that unless you have a Hob Nob BC and can spent 300 to 400 hundred dollars a month on trainig/trialing you do not exist. Their mantra is: Coming in 2nd is being the first looser No thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Okay, this from a person who has never entered an Agility trial and most likely never will! I signed up for an agility class with my Elsie for the simple reason that I want to spent time with her. The place I did sign up with is considered a place where "Pet People" hang out 99% of the agility people in my area are soooooo snobish and cliquish that unless you have a Hob Nob BC and can spent 300 to 400 hundred dollars a month on trainig/trialing you do not exist. Their mantra is: Coming in 2nd is being the first looser No thank you How do you know that's what they're like if you have never entered a trial and you train with people who don't want to be competitive? And I'm pretty sure you'll find all those on here who do compete will consider themselves "Pet People" first and foremost. They compete with their pets, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 99% of the agility people in my area are soooooo snobish and cliquish that unless you have a Hob Nob BC and can spent 300 to 400 hundred dollars a month on trainig/trialing you do not exist. Their mantra is: Coming in 2nd is being the first looser No thank you Well, that would be an odd statistic considering that, though border collies are quite numerous in agility, they do not make up 99% of the dog/handler teams participating in the sport. Maybe you meant to say "99% of the agility people who compete with border collies?" Perhaps things are very different where you live, but I have never encountered that sort of attitude anywhere. In fact, a good majority of the people I know of that compete in agility do so with dogs that came from rescue (or shelters). Why would so many people with rescue dogs compete in a sport where they are not welcomed? I've never had anyone treat me differently because my dog is of unknown pedigree. Most of the people I come in contact with are friendly and warm and inclusive. But, again, I'm not running in the circles with the top competitors, though the ones that I have had some contact with have been pretty darn friendly, too. Honestly, the only "clique-ish" type behaviors I've ever seen have had mostly to do with personality, not performance. But, isn't that true anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 In my area, Border Collies are actually in the minority. At our trial this past weekend there were three that belonged to one woman, two that belong to a couple, mine and one other. We have a wide variety of breeds represented at our trials, but overwhelmingly the mixed breeds rule. If you think agility people are snobbish & cliquish, you are hanging around with the wrong people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 How do you know that's what they're like if you have never entered a trial and you train with people who don't want to be competitive? And I'm pretty sure you'll find all those on here who do compete will consider themselves "Pet People" first and foremost. They compete with their pets, that's all. I have not encountered people being snobby but I also do not do AKC or very much USDAA I will say CPE and NADAC also ASCA everyone is glad you came and very helpful if you were inclined to do any trials check these groups out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Okay, this from a person who has never entered an Agility trial and most likely never will! I signed up for an agility class with my Elsie for the simple reason that I want to spent time with her. The place I did sign up with is considered a place where "Pet People" hang out 99% of the agility people in my area are soooooo snobish and cliquish that unless you have a Hob Nob BC and can spent 300 to 400 hundred dollars a month on trainig/trialing you do not exist. Their mantra is: Coming in 2nd is being the first looser No thank you That is really sad, I had never given any thought that in other areas it would not be fun. Here in the north east I have always found people to be friendly and helpful, i have met some nice people in the last three years, had some stick their nose in the air when they have inquired about my dogs breeding, and have run into some cliques but truthfully I go to run with my dog, that is it. I have wanted to do agility for years bought my first how to book back in 1996, but did not have the time, so once I no longer owned a restaurant and could I dove in, if I had to deal with people like that my contrarian nature would want to beat those posh border collies with my rescue one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 99% of the agility people in my area are soooooo snobish and cliquish that unless you have a Hob Nob BC and can spent 300 to 400 hundred dollars a month on trainig/trialing you do not exist. Their mantra is: Coming in 2nd is being the first looser No thank you Wow, if that many people in your area have that attitude, they must almost all be pretty unhappy most of the time in their chosen sport/hobby because only one person comes in First. The vast majority of sports people I know want to have fun with their dog and hope to do well, but understand that they are not going to be National Champions or make the Worlds Team. I come from an area that is pretty much a training wilderness when it comes to advanced level training so the people I hung with tended to be very laid back. But when I was going to trials, I saw all sorts. Some people were more serious than others about their goals. Some people were more inclined to lose their way a bit from the reason they started in the sport (to have fun with their dog) and become unhappy with themselves and/or their dogs when they do poorly. However, I don't know that being a competitive person makes you a worse loser or not as loving and good a dog owner. I've known some highly talented, hugely successful players that were mean spirited or just plain mean to their dogs and some terrible or mediocre handlers who were just as mean spirited or abusive to their hapless canine partners. Likewise, I know big names who make their living in the sport as well as those are simply in it for fun at a low level of competition and they equally adore their dogs. Many even train their dogs in the super positive way that annoys many on these boards. Competition can do funny (bad, ugly) things to people but it doesn't have to. And I think without really being in the sport or activity, it is hard to see the full picture or what the "average" person is like, even if that average person is extremely competitive and successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Most of the people I come in contact with are friendly and warm and inclusive. But, again, I'm not running in the circles with the top competitors, though the ones that I have had some contact with have been pretty darn friendly, too. Honestly, the only "clique-ish" type behaviors I've ever seen have had mostly to do with personality, not performance. But, isn't that true anywhere? Definitely. "Top" people in any field may seem aloof at times because of their ability to focus on the task in hand - a bit like BCs really. Pick the wrong moment and you may get blanked. Pick the right moment and they're often perfectly normal. I'm sure most don't mean to be rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I guess I should explain better, My personal feeling is that it is sort of strange to start a 8 week old puppy on "Agility Games" and nothing else or to register a Mini Aussie with AKC as an Aussie only to reregister him as an American Shepherd when AKC accepts that breed so that you can be the first in the breed to get an agility title or to "Get Rid" of a dog because he does not have what it takes in Agility or to pay $3000 for a puppy because the instructor bred her stud and you have to have a puppy. But what really upsets me the most is that the same people accuse the herding comunity of treating their dogs as "Lifestock" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I guess I should explain better, My personal feeling is that it is sort of strange to start a 8 week old puppy on "Agility Games" and nothing else or to register a Mini Aussie with AKC as an Aussie only to reregister him as an American Shepherd when AKC accepts that breed so that you can be the first in the breed to get an agility title or to "Get Rid" of a dog because he does not have what it takes in Agility or to pay $3000 for a puppy because the instructor bred her stud and you have to have a puppy. But what really upsets me the most is that the same people accuse the herding comunity of treating their dogs as "Lifestock" And you have all this from where? First hand? Undoubtedly there are people in all sections of the dog world who do things that we may not approve of personally but don't you think it's rather unfair to tar the whole of the competitive agility community with the same brush without clear evidence that such practices are the norm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 My personal feeling is that it is sort of strange to start a 8 week old puppy on "Agility Games" and nothing else or to register a Mini Aussie with AKC as an Aussie only to reregister him as an American Shepherd when AKC accepts that breed so that you can be the first in the breed to get an agility title or to "Get Rid" of a dog because he does not have what it takes in Agility or to pay $3000 for a puppy because the instructor bred her stud and you have to have a puppy. But that is not the agility community as a whole. There are a very small percentage of people who will actually do such things. You can't paint everyone into a corner because of the actions of a few. Pick the wrong moment and you may get blanked. Pick the right moment and they're often perfectly normal. I'm sure most don't mean to be rude. So true, so true -- And I hope people don't take offense to this!!! I have three dogs to run at a trial (and sometimes a foster along for the ride). When it comes time to potty them, walk a course and get them ready I'm sure some people think I'm a bitch because I don't stop to answer their question or respond to some other inquiry they might have. ANY OTHER TIME of the day I am happy to answer questions or even walk a course with someone -- but NOT when I'm getting ready to run. It's frazzling enough to have three dogs running in one class, I just don't have time to get distracted by something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 You can't paint everyone into a corner because of the actions of a few. That sounds familiar...If only we could make it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I guess I should explain better, My personal feeling is that it is sort of strange to start a 8 week old puppy on "Agility Games" and nothing else or to register a Mini Aussie with AKC as an Aussie only to reregister him as an American Shepherd when AKC accepts that breed so that you can be the first in the breed to get an agility title or to "Get Rid" of a dog because he does not have what it takes in Agility or to pay $3000 for a puppy because the instructor bred her stud and you have to have a puppy. Not really sure what that has to do with your earlier statement, though. But what really upsets me the most is that the same people accuse the herding comunity of treating their dogs as "Lifestock" Wait. You mean they're making judgements and assumptions about an entire group of people, based on the actions of a few? Hmmmm...... (Edited for clarity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 My personal feeling is that it is sort of strange to start a 8 week old puppy on "Agility Games" and nothing else I'm curious about this one. What else are they not doing? House manners? Training for other sports? Something else? "Agility Games" can be very comprehensive and much of what is done in "Agility Games" can transfer over into other things very nicely. Toy play, self control, interaction with new surfaces and objects, off switch work, tricks, basic behaviors like sit, stay, down, crate manners, active and passive focus, even relaxation, and the list goes on . . . It would be quite easy to frame other training into an "Agility Games" context. For someone who plans to do Agility with the dog, that can be very sensible. I'm just wondering what you feel they are not doing. Like I said - curiosity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I will just stay out of topics that I really know nothing about and leave this discussion to the people who actually train in agility and who know a lot more then I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenotri Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 When did this become more about the competitors than the $5000 course? I don't see anything wrong with beng competitive. Everyone who is competing is more competitive than those who train and never compete, right? And as Liz said, only one dog can come 1st. I'm more than happy to admit that I'm very competitive. I compete against the course. If a skill on the course beats us, I go train that skill. If we are beaten by another team, it means they are doing something better than us and if I can identify what it is, I go train it. I'm always trying to run the best I can. They are the monority, but i do have a problem with People being so competitive that: They wish others do not do well They are unwilling to share their skills with others They blame their dog for poor performance They go through a heap of dogs looking for the perfect one they continue to run an unsound dog who should be rehab'ed or retired. The problem I have with this course is the concept of elitism that goes with it. There is no way to justify charging this type of money. If it were $500 and publicized as an experiment to test the method, I would have no problem with it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 My personal feeling is that it is sort of strange to start a 8 week old puppy on "Agility Games" and nothing else or to register a Mini Aussie with AKC as an Aussie only to reregister him as an American Shepherd when AKC accepts that breed so that you can be the first in the breed to get an agility title or to "Get Rid" of a dog because he does not have what it takes in Agility Much of Quinn's puppy training was very agility driven. I would bet he'd love it if I did all those fun, training games with him now. He wasn't bought to work sheep. He was bought to be a pet who competed in agility and at that time I was hoping to do well with him in the sport (no illusions of playing at the top levels though). Is that strange? He sure had a lot of fun with those games (we both did). He also learned a lot of great skills both for agility and day to day life. I can't comment on the mini aussie thing. I know nothing about that breed. As far as getting rid of a dog who isn't up to snuff in agility, I've only heard of very high level performers (who earn their living from the sport) doing that and even then it was pretty noteworthy to learn about. I trained with a world team player who had a couple dogs who couldn't perform at the top levels and they were loved and valued pets. What I can say is at Quinn's first stock work lesson, the instructor asked me if I might be interested in a 3 year old Sheltie whose owner wanted to sell it because she had decided she needed a true working dog, a Border Collie. Not to help out on her farm but for her new hobby of hoping to compete in trials some day. My heart broke for that Sheltie, no doubt as sensitive, sweet and extremely untalented at working sheep as most Shelties are. I have never been asked if I was interested in an available dog due to similar circumstances in agility or obedience. Does that mean selling dogs who don't work out as planned is more common in stock work, even for those who are in it for competition rather than because they need help with their sheep or cattle? Beats me. Not my area of expertise, so I won't comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Okay I have to get the scoop on the mini aussie thing what dog got moved to another breed by AKC to the Northern Sheperd or whatever breed they came up with was it that Willow dog? In reality a mini aussie is the size they used to be they were not big whopping square built dogs that you see today they were know as "the little blue dogs" back in the day another breed and topic but peaked my interest as I own what is termed a "toy aussie" and boy do I get chastized for that interesting to see how AKC does what AKC wants when it suits them. As for the 5G class holy cats for my dog to run fast across a piece of wood ummmm really? wow what a sales person if you get that many responders. I do enjoy her books and 2by2 method however i have not seen a dog yet go weave 12 poles while i am on my back deck yards away in 12 days like she states in the promo it is a great concept but you do have to modify it for each students learning curve as with any training technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 99% of the agility people in my area are soooooo snobish and cliquish that unless you have a Hob Nob BC and can spent 300 to 400 hundred dollars a month on trainig/trialing you do not exist. Their mantra is: Coming in 2nd is being the first looser No thank you Well there's a reason many call it Hob Snob. Glad I don't live there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Well there's a reason many call it Hob Snob. Glad I don't live there. I dunno, my agility coach owns 2 Hob Nob dogs and shes as warm and friendly as she can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 When did this become more about the competitors than the $5000 course? I don't see anything wrong with beng competitive. Everyone who is competing is more competitive than those who train and never compete, right? And as Liz said, only one dog can come 1st. I'm more than happy to admit that I'm very competitive. I compete against the course. If a skill on the course beats us, I go train that skill. If we are beaten by another team, it means they are doing something better than us and if I can identify what it is, I go train it. I'm always trying to run the best I can. They are the monority, but i do have a problem with People being so competitive that: They wish others do not do well They are unwilling to share their skills with others They blame their dog for poor performance They go through a heap of dogs looking for the perfect one they continue to run an unsound dog who should be rehab'ed or retired. The problem I have with this course is the concept of elitism that goes with it. There is no way to justify charging this type of money. If it were $500 and publicized as an experiment to test the method, I would have no problem with it at all. You said everything I was trying to just much succinctly. I also see nothing wrong with playing games with a puppy that is helping to build a relationship geared towards playing agility. I got my youngster when he was 5 months old, and I intended for him to be my team mate. If he had not worked out as an agility dog, he would still be an adorned pet. I do feel that I have a different relationship with him than I have had with any other dog, not only is he the youngest dog I have had, but he is the only dog who I have become a team with rather than a buddy, my husband laughs at us, and I have incriminating photographic evidence of his bond with his dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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