Life is full of corrections

[Laurae]

You are kind of freaking me out, Julie. Think I might hold off on the pork feeding for a little while...

[juliepoudrier]

Laura,

I still feed pork. I think the one person on the other list is very cautious, but then he uses his dogs for hunting and has lived all over the world, so it may be that his extreme caution comes from his life experiences and not because he expects a real problem in pork here in the US.

 

I just found the whole topic interesting because until it was mentioned on that list, I had never heard about it. I imagine it's a lot like scrapie in sheep--any incidence is really low, but it's scary because of the health implications for another species. With pseudorabies it's more likely to occur in pigs that are not in confinement operations and who could come into contact with feral hogs. Feral hogs exist in the south, but I don't know anything about their numbers in other parts of the country. The largest consideration for me was that I was considering raising my own pig for slaughter, but then I've never heard of feral pigs in this area either. But it's something to be aware of.

 

I won't stop feeding raw pork, but I will at least pay attention to where it comes from.

 

J.

[shysheperdess]

LOL!! Oh my..I was going to stay out of this one...but it just keeps ROLLING ON!!!

 

Root Beer, you really DO have an answer for everything!! LOL!! You don't compete in obedience because you CHOOSE not to..of course!!! Of course you find working with everyday people more gratifying than competing!! Although you sure are the FIRST to throw there hat in with threads about sports. With ALLLL your infinite knowledge, never tested of course(but because you choose not to).

 

First off...I don't think bc soul sista MEANT that we should all get down on all fours, sniff eachothers butts, and act like dogs, and I think you KNOW THAT!!! She was merely proving the point that "corrections"..or consequences for certain things, is what something that they understand. They are not damaged by another dog presenting these consequences by either a growl or a physical act, etc. period. So why would it be emotionaly damaging to a dog to recieve such from there person as long as it is un-emotional, and fair to the situation??

 

I don't get the vibe from her that she is trying to tear down pet people or everyday training for dogs. But recognize that it's NOT that hard to teach basic commands (sit, down, heel, come, etc) with a click and a treat. It gets tricky when more advanced things are required and more is expected of the dog and that's where methods that involve no consequence for the dog I feel fail. Other than there VERY few exceptions(Denise is a very talented and creative trainer)...

 

From my experience training advanced behaviors and competing with dogs really truly tests training and handling. It puts your ideas, handling and training skills to the ultimate test. Challenging your methods and how you think dogs learn. There is no way the people who are at the top of there game don't understand how dogs learn and train effectively..or they wouldn't be where they are.

 

BC Soul Sista seems to be a talented, young and newer trainer, I've also been following her brags. The notion that she hasn't spent EQUAL amount of hard hours training her dog as someone who trains for Pet behaviors only is rediculous Root Beer. Alot of what she says needs to be considered because of the success she has had already. Her training has been tested and she has shown that it's been very effective.

[alligande]

Back to the subject of training: What I think gets confusing with the term "correction" is its broad use, or at least it confuses me, I see a huge gap between an ah ah, and a physical correction. For the life of me I can not understand how using a verbal correction would affect my relationship with my dog. Then there is the reality that most of the time I use a verbal correction I am not "training" but reminding the dog that something is unacceptable.

 

Basically I see corrections broken into two distinct groups:

 

*A correction can be a simple ah ah letting a dog know that its current behavior is not right. In my own case I use this in daily life, such as paws on a counter. I am guessing a version of this is what most of us use. I would put physical pressure into the same type of bracket, you are not touching the dog, you are communicating that something is not right.

 

*Then there are the ear pinches, collar pops, and other physical interventions, There is also the shock collar.

[PSmitty]

Back to the subject of training: What I think gets confusing with the term "correction" is its broad use, or at least it confuses me, I see a huge gap between an ah ah, and a physical correction. For the life of me I can not understand how using a verbal correction would affect my relationship with my dog. Then there is the reality that most of the time I use a verbal correction I am not "training" but reminding the dog that something is unacceptable.

 

 

Yeah, me, too. For a while I bought into the belief that we should never tell our dogs "no". How that's not teaching them anything, it's not telling them anything. But I came to believe that it IS telling them something. It's telling them that the current behavior isn't acceptable, or the action isn't what I wanted, and they should try something new. I just don't buy at all, that me saying "NO" or "ah ah" is negatively affecting them or our relationship in any way. And it is a correction to me, as I understand it.

 

This morning, Jack walks into the bathroom while I'm getting ready, and makes a beeline for my coffee cup, trying to take a drink (yeah, seriously). All I have to say is "no", he turns and walks out. If I tell him to come bye and he goes away, I can say "NO, come bye", and he will change direction (on a good day, but lets not go there! ). So, telling them they're not making the right choice, in my opinion, is just information, and not harmful in any way.

 

ETA: I have not read this thread, only skimmed a little. I'm only chiming in with Alligande on this particular part of the topic.

[Root Beer]

Root Beer, you really DO have an answer for everything!! LOL!!

 

No more than anyone else in the discussion. It is, after all, a discussion, with different points of view being expressed by those interested in the topic.

 

You don't compete in obedience because you CHOOSE not to..of course!!!

 

That's true, actually. For reasons of my own, that is my choice.

 

And it's not exactly a moral choice. It's not like anyone who is interested in training dogs, sports, etc. has some obligation to participate in traditional obedience. We have tons of options these days and everyone is free to choose what is preferred. I have done that. My sport passions are Musical Freestyle and Agility. I would be a fool to go into a discipline that does not hold my interest just to prove anything to anyone. So, I don't. I pursue what I enjoy intensely with my dogs and what interests me, and them.

 

Whether you consider those disciplines "real" or "valid" or whatever has no bearing on my choice.

 

Of course you find working with everyday people more gratifying than competing!!

 

I wouldn't say that. I simply appreciate the fact that working with people is challenging. It is far more challenging than it looks on the surface. It is challenging on levels that no competition or man made set of rules can measure.

 

I find competing very gratifying. I enjoy it immensely. But the challenges of competition are just that - the challenges of competition. The challenges of working with everyday people is its own challenge. And a worthy one, at that.

 

Although you sure are the FIRST to throw there hat in with threads about sports.

 

Yes, I enjoy sports and discussing them. I've never hidden that fact.

 

Are we all limited now to one, and only one, topic of discussion? Are we limited to one, and only one, area of interest in training? Do posters have to meet your specific criteria before expressing a point of view? I didn't get that memo.

 

With ALLLL your infinite knowledge, never tested of course(but because you choose not to).

 

There you go with the personal attacks. I ask that you would please refrain from them.

 

Yes, there are some things that I know because I have done what I have done and I have the experience that I have. I do not, nor have I ever claimed to know "ALLLL". And you know this.

 

My knowledge and skill has been tested. Yes, in ways that you personally do not consider valid, but they have been tested, nonetheless. I've known both success and failure, and I am still in the process of learning and developing skill.

 

Again, you know this. We have been through it countless times. I'm not sure why you want to rehash it again.

 

First off...I don't think bc soul sista MEANT that we should all get down on all fours, sniff eachothers butts, and act like dogs, and I think you KNOW THAT!!!

 

Of course I know that. The point is that I consider that particular reason for using corrections ("because dogs correct each other") as relevant to my personal choice not to incorporate them as the fact that dogs sniff one another's butts is.

 

Sorry - figured that was obvious.

 

She was merely proving the point that "corrections"..or consequences for certain things, is what something that they understand. They are not damaged by another dog presenting these consequences by either a growl or a physical act, etc. period. So why would it be emotionaly damaging to a dog to recieve such from there person as long as it is un-emotional, and fair to the situation??

 

The fact that dogs correct one another doesn't actually prove anything except that dogs correct one another. Again, as a human, I can chose to use many modes of communication that a dog is incapable of using. Generally speaking, that is my preference.

 

But recognize that it's NOT that hard to teach basic commands (sit, down, heel, come, etc) with a click and a treat. It gets tricky when more advanced things are required and more is expected of the dog and that's where methods that involve no consequence for the dog I feel fail. Other than there VERY few exceptions(Denise is a very talented and creative trainer)...

 

It's not so much that it is tricky when advanced things are required. There is technique and skill required and one does need to know learn how.

 

If things break down when it is no longer easy, the opportunity is at hand for the trainer to move to the next skill level.

 

The fact that Ms. Fezi, an "exception", exists, does indicate that there are possibilities that many are not yet aware of. If those possibilities did not exist, she would not be able to accomplish what she has, regardless of her talent and creativity.

 

The notion that she hasn't spent EQUAL amount of hard hours training her dog as someone who trains for Pet behaviors only is rediculous Root Beer.

 

shyshepherdess - could you please quote where I said the statement to which you "respond" above? Where have I said that she has not spent time training?

 

You do have a knack of responding to things that I have not said as if I had actually said them. BC Soul Sista and I were not discussing her training schedule. We were discussing different points of view on corrections.

 

In addition, I do not train for "pet behaviors only". Yes, that is part of what I do, but not the only thing that I do. I am aware that you are convinced of that, but it is not the case. You might want to read what I have actually written a little more attentively and get the facts straight.

[terrecar]

For those who think pet training is "nothing" vs. obedience titles, well, that depends on your values.** It is true that obedience titles provide external proof of a trainer's ability, and there are certainly a number of self-defined experts in dogs that make that test valuable as a sort of credential. But in terms of real value, I have come to place a higher value on pet training that helps to keep pets in the home by dealing with behavior issues than I do ribbons and titles. At this point, I would be more inclined to work toward CBCC-KA certification for that very reason, rather than putting my money on AKC titles. I do still think obedience titles are a good measure though, although one obedience title doesn't make anyone an expert.

 

ETA: **Although, that comment presupposes that dogs earning obedience titles are "working". Oh the irony.

[terrecar]

There you go with the personal attacks. I ask that you would please refrain from them.

[/Quote]

 

I'm sorry Kristine, but until you've proven your skill in a(n) <insert title du jour here>, you simply have no authority to ask for civility here.

[terrecar]

Just kidding.

[Root Beer]

I'm sorry Kristine, but until you've proven your skill in a(n) <insert title du jour here>, you simply have no authority to ask for civility here.

 

Maaaaaaaaaaaan!! I didn't get that memo, either!!

 

Apparently I'm not on the proper mailing list. :lol:

[shysheperdess]

It's not really about the title per se, it's about the QUALITY of "work"...if you can show that you can get through a heel pattern with the dog relatively in heel position, focused on it's handler and not sniffing the ground in the face of distrations...then your dog knows how to heel pretty well, and you did a good job of training the heel..

 

Just using the "heel" as an example

 

In Obedience trials, Rally, etc..the dog can still sniff, not be in position, "flake out" or what not and still qualify/get a title...that dog to me doesn't know how to Heel well and hasn't been taught properly, but they can still get a title. There are many people(I've painfully watched) at trials who are there JUST to get titles. I would NEVER send someone to or recommend a trainer based on that.

 

Laugh it up Kristine...joke's on you

[The Good Shepherd]

I find this whole thread very entertaining

 

So far, and someone correct me if I am wrong , noone has mentioned that what works for one dog might not work for another??????????

[Root Beer]

Laugh it up Kristine...joke's on you

 

If you think I'm laughing because of your personal attacks, I'm really not. I find them, and your motivation behind them, to be interesting, but I can't say I'm amused by them.

 

You are always welcome to contact me by PM if you would like to discuss the personal problem that you have with me. I would consider that far more appropriate than continuing it here, where the topic at hand is the choice to incorporate, or not to incorporate, correction into one's training.

[geonni banner]

I want to discuss Mr Spock.

 

 

And how he would train a dog.

He would use the Vulcan Mind-Meld, and the dog would be able to understand what he wanted without cookies or leash-pops.

 

Fascinating, Captain...

[Root Beer]

So far, and someone correct me if I am wrong , noone has mentioned that what works for one dog might not work for another??????????

 

That is something that people tend to say a lot in response to the fact that some choose not to incorporate correction into their training.

 

One thing that I think gets lost somewhere along the way is that training through reinforcement is not "one way" of training. There are countless ways to approach any given training challenge or task using reinforcement. And more techniques, many even more effective than the last "generation" approach, are constantly being developed. It is almost impossible to keep up with all of it, actually.

 

(Side note: that is why it is a pet peeve of mine when someone says, "I tried everything and nothing worked". There is no way that any one person could have tried "everything" because no one person knows "everything". A person may have tried everything that he or she knew at that time to try, but that is hardly "everything"!! Like I said - pet peeve!!)

 

So, the fact that a trainer chooses not to incorporate correction does not leave that person with only one option. There are options that any given trainer is most likely not even aware of.

 

I have absolutely found that what works for one dog does not necessarily work for another. Sometimes a real out-of-the-box approach is needed. Often finding the right approach does require learning new skills or taking old ones to a new level. Personally, I consider those times an opportunity to become a better trainer.

 

I've never run out of reinforcement based options when I find myself in a place where what worked for one dog doesn't work for another. There are far more than most people realize.

[PSmitty]

 

Laugh it up Kristine...joke's on you

 

What is with you? You can disagree with someone, and state your opinions, without getting nasty.

[terrecar]

Back to the subject of training: What I think gets confusing with the term "correction" is its broad use, or at least it confuses me, I see a huge gap between an ah ah, and a physical correction. For the life of me I can not understand how using a verbal correction would affect my relationship with my dog. Then there is the reality that most of the time I use a verbal correction I am not "training" but reminding the dog that something is unacceptable.

 

Basically I see corrections broken into two distinct groups:

 

*A correction can be a simple ah ah letting a dog know that its current behavior is not right. In my own case I use this in daily life, such as paws on a counter. I am guessing a version of this is what most of us use. I would put physical pressure into the same type of bracket, you are not touching the dog, you are communicating that something is not right.

 

*Then there are the ear pinches, collar pops, and other physical interventions, There is also the shock collar.

 

Thank you for putting this in perspective. I agree with this, which is why I said *some* would consider my verbal corrections to be aversive. I think Mr. McCaig hit on this when he said "there are positive trainers and there are positive trainers".

 

I consider myself a positive trainer (not a "positive only" trainer), but I'll give you an example of a correction of sorts that I found absolutely necessary, though it wasn't in a formal training environment:

 

I'm finishing up some accounting at the Humane Society and waiting for a kennel attendant to finish up so I can lock up. Kennel attendant comes upstairs from the downstairs kennels and says there is a dog fight in the kennels downstairs (they happend to be pit bull terriers). So, you're a kennel attendant and there is a dog fight. Now what do you do to control the situation? Well naturally, your first course of action is to go upstairs and get the accountant.

 

So, I run downstairs with a metal bucket shouting "hey!" and bang on the cage. It breaks up what was actually a bit less of a fight than an dominance display. Point is, the sound was VERY unpleasant; an aversive, if you will. But it got the dominant dog to release the other one before it could escalate (no blood; the lesser dog thought it in his best interest to cry uncle) so they could be separated. I can't think of a positive way out of that situation.

 

ETA: The dog pinned on his back was screaming like he was dying. Scared the hell out of me at first. But not enough to go get the Director

[simba]

OK, DOOOOGS! We're goin' out for pasta tonight!!! :D

 

In France they sell massive bags of dog pasta, fortified fusilli in sacks. You can either use it to supplement, or you can buy the complete pasta mix with meaty kibble and whatnot mixed through. You feed it dry so they can crunch it.

 

I'd be so tempted to see what it tasted like.

[Pam Wolf]

Really, I don't think Spock would train a dog, now that Vulcan bear like creature, maybe!

[The Good Shepherd]

"That is something that people tend to say a lot in response to the fact that some choose not to incorporate correction into their training."

 

Root Beer, I have been on both sides of the coin in training my dogs, the only thing that I really really believe in anymore is that the training has to fit the dog and we, as Trainers/Handlers have to be flexible enough to see that

[Root Beer]

Root Beer, I have been on both sides of the coin in training my dogs, the only thing that I really really believe in anymore is that the training has to fit the dog and we, as Trainers/Handlers have to be flexible enough to see that

 

I meant to say that I know that might not be what you were saying. What you said just made me think of that.

 

Flexibility is one thing I like best about a reinforcement based approach.

 

And while you didn't mean to imply that there can be no flexibility without incorporation of corrections, that is something that I have heard in these kinds of discussions (not even just here). When, in fact, flexibility is one of the defining characteristics of a solid reinforcement based approach.

[juliepoudrier]

I think I would add that *flexibility* is the defining characteristic of a good trainer, period.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

In France they sell massive bags of dog pasta, fortified fusilli in sacks. You can either use it to supplement, or you can buy the complete pasta mix with meaty kibble and whatnot mixed through. You feed it dry so they can crunch it.

 

I'd be so tempted to see what it tasted like.

 

Hahahaha!! It's probably better than the pasta we get in stores here!!

 

I do throw my dogs pieces of dry pasta when I'm about to cook some. Tessa and Sammie love it.

 

Although I do feed a grain free diet, I do give table scraps (although usually just a morsel) and they do get a little pasta when I have it, especially if there is some left in the pot after we finish. They all love it.

[bc soul sista]

I completely agree with Julie and Good Shepherd...%100

[Tea]

Whoa

 

 

 

I come in to get lunch and this is what I find!

 

 

 

Bear creature, hum.....Can they work stock.

"Come By, T kun...Come Bye....."

 

 

 

Mind meld- I am leaning towards that.

 

 

 

But what I really think is this.

 

 

 

"Captain CAPTAIN She's Breaking up She's Breaking up"