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Spay/Neuter in Agility dogs


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(which the majority of pet owners are not prepared/able to do hence the routine early s/n...)

 

 

I think this ^^ acknowledgement lends the necessary balance to Mara's post. I do think dog savvy individuals can handle intact animals without an "oops". I've known more than a few who did just that.

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The only thing that bugs me about early s/n is the idea that touted that it is the "responsible thing to do". No the responsible thing is to keep your dog contained/under control and not to produce puppies without a really good reason.

 

Yes. Very well said. I'm changing course and have been for many years but a friend of mine sums it up with "why are you ripping out perfectly good parts from a perfectly healthy dog". I think the answer is a lazy society and lazy trainers.

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You're not the only one who thinks so.

 

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf

 

 

Not a fan of Chris Zink either. I can hear the sound of her grinding her axe from this side of the pond.

The impression I get from her is that she makes her mind up and sets out to prove she is right rather than properly and objectively testing her hypothesis. Could be wrong of course.

 

This has been the best summary of the subject I've come across, and I'm sure I've posted it before -

 

http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/144600/EVIDENCE-BASED-APPROACH-TO-NEUTER-SURGERY-AND-INTRODUCTION-TO-EVIDENCE-BASED-MEDICAL-PRACTICE

 

The problem with commonly cited studies is that there is usually little information as to whether they were properly conducted or not. Some of them are very sloppy indeed and therefore worthless.

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I think this ^^ acknowledgement lends the necessary balance to Mara's post. I do think dog savvy individuals can handle intact animals without an "oops". I've known more than a few who did just that.

 

And I've known more than a few who thought they could but found they couldn't.

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Not a fan of Chris Zink either. I can hear the sound of her grinding her axe from this side of the pond.

The impression I get from her is that she makes her mind up and sets out to prove she is right rather than properly and objectively testing her hypothesis.

I agree.

 

And I've known more than a few who thought they could but found they couldn't.

 

Same here.

 

I'm not a fan of early S/N from a health and growth standpoint, but I also recognize that many pet onwers have a difficult time preventing intact pets from having or creating puppies.

 

J.

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Coming from an agility perspective, I waited until my boy was a year of age to neuter. I dislike the attitude and low drive (that I've witnessed) of males neutered too early.

 

Out of our current 5, 1 was done before we got him so I can't say what he was like before.

2 were done at 8 months because that's how old they were when we got them.

1 was done at 6 months (my preference although I would turn down a dog that had been neutered very early)

and the only bitch was done at 14 months because we'd been told she hadn't had a season when we got her at 7 months but I'm sure she had. If I'd known she'd have been done when we got her.

And my late dog was done at 12 months because he was that age when we got him.

 

Not one that was neutered in our ownership changed in drive afterwards and it isn't something I've ever heard any of my many, many Agility friends complain of. In our case, the ones that were extremely keen stayed that way and reached the top grade here while the ones that were stubborn, sensitive or uninterested didn't change either.

 

Did you know the dogs that you say lack drive before they were neutered? If not, how do you know early neutering lessened their drive? And presumably they wouldn't have started Agility training so it would be hard to judge. Can you be sure that they weren't going to turn out the way they are anyway?

 

On an earlier point, none of mine developed a woolly coat either although I think spaniels are more prone to it. Very rarely do I see a woolly BC amongst the many hundreds I see regularly at Agility shows.

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Not a fan of Chris Zink either. I can hear the sound of her grinding her axe from this side of the pond.

The impression I get from her is that she makes her mind up and sets out to prove she is right rather than properly and objectively testing her hypothesis.

 

 

That made me LOL. I have said that for ages...I have no issue with Chris Zink pe se, but yeah, since every study has her fingerprint on it I feel a little unsure of it all. I wish there were people would consider doing more in detail research.

 

I have many adamant anti neuter friends who insist that intact males are the way to go but all cite her research, and at least one has had a "whoops" litter through a chain link fence.

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Not one that was neutered in our ownership changed in drive afterwards and it isn't something I've ever heard any of my many, many Agility friends complain of. In our case, the ones that were extremely keen stayed that way and reached the top grade here while the ones that were stubborn, sensitive or uninterested didn't change either.

 

Did you know the dogs that you say lack drive before they were neutered? If not, how do you know early neutering lessened their drive? And presumably they wouldn't have started Agility training so it would be hard to judge. Can you be sure that they weren't going to turn out the way they are anyway?

 

 

 

 

Yes, I did know them as they were my own dogs. In my personal opinion, males neutered earlier ( >4 months) versus males who are neutered later on do tend to have different attitudes. They are more puppy-like and seem to have a very goofy personality. Not to say that this applies to ALL males as of course every dog differs.

 

Edited to add: When I said I was coming from an agility perspective, I meant that I neutered later on due to making sure growth plates were closed. Upon rereading it I realized it could have been interpreted as meaning I neuter later on to make sure they have drive for agility.

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Yes, I did know them as they were my own dogs. In my personal opinion, males neutered earlier ( >4 months) versus males who are neutered later on do tend to have different attitudes. They are more puppy-like and seem to have a very goofy personality. Not to say that this applies to ALL males as of course every dog differs.

 

Difficult to prove though since it's impossible to know how they would have turned out if they had been neutered at a different time or left entire.

 

Actually I don't have a problem with puppy-like and goofy for agility anyway. In some ways I prefer it.

 

I wouldn't personally base an opinion on the small sample of my own dogs, or even the dogs that I know very well. I can use them as a counter example in discussion but that doesn't mean I think my own experience is conclusive evidence. As you say, all dogs are different and early life experiences can have more of an effect on behaviour than time of neutering.

 

I don't know where your dogs were from or what age you got them but I gather that in the US it is most likely to be shelter dogs that have undergone paediatric neutering. That in itself distorts the picture.

 

Why were yours done so early and how many dogs are we talking about?

 

I really don't have an informed opinion on the subject as paediatric neutering is rare here and I only have the current incomplete literature to go on. On that limited basis I'm not currently for or against it.

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My opinion is just that- my opinion. I don't know how you can say that ' you wouldn't base an opinion with just a small sample'....it's not like I am saying what I know is factual.

 

From the small amount of male dogs that I've owned (under 10) to the many male dogs I've worked with in rescue (too many to count) to all my friends male dogs, in my opinion, the dogs neutered later on tend to be more 'manly'. That's what I like, I don't like the goofiness.

 

Of course there are males that who have been neutered earlier that are still 'manly', but the majority that *I've* met are goofy. Just my opinion as of now...But that's the wonderful thing about opinions. They can change as we learn! :)

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but that doesn't mean I think my own experience is conclusive evidence.

 

 

Couldn't agree more with this. Hopefully my posts aren't coming off that I know everything...just stating my preferences. :)

 

I don't have a dead set opinion on early s/n and certainly wouldn't turn a dog down simply because of it, but if I had the choice I would certainly wait.

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Maggie was spayed at 6 months and I have not noticed one bit of difference in her before or after. Spur was neutered at age 10 (later than I would have liked) and from a personality standpoint, no difference. His coat does seem thicker and more wavey, and on plus side he stopped marking everything which I didn't think would happen at such a late age.

 

I asked my vet before spaying Maggie about the whole growth plate thing and he basically thought it was a non-issue.

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Oh, there are some interesting stories about how oops litters happen. You would be amazed at the lengths dogs go to in order to reproduce. Accidents happen to the best of people. It's how they handle those accidents that ultimately shows how responsible they are (ex: placing the pups in good homes vs getting rid of the bitch).

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