What age to acquire a pup for stock work?

[geonni banner]

With all this debate on various threads for what age to get a pup for agility, etc., I wondered - at what age do you get a pup for stock work? I'm not thinking of a "career trialer", but of a dog that will be needed to work a home flock, (and maybe trial. And then, when do you decide if the dog is up to the job or not, and do you keep it if it isn't?

[Liz P]

If you want a sure thing, buy a trained adult.

 

If you want excellent odds but like to train your own, buy a young adult that's been tested or lightly started on stock.

 

Pups are a gamble. You can never be sure how they will turn out.

 

I sold a 2 year old who was nice on sheep, but we didn't get along. I also placed a young adult (under a year old) who wasn't working out for me. Both went to great homes; one as a goose dog and one as a pet. I would say that if I get along well with a dog I will keep it longer and be more patient about waiting to see how it turns out.

 

You can't be certain about a dog until you have at least a few months training on them, sometimes not even then. And don't forget the human part of the equation, dog and handler must get along well as a team. A dog that is nothing but trouble for one person might be the next Int Ch for another.

[Smalahundur]

My opinion has changed on the grounds of my (admittedly very limited) experience.

First I thought it best to get a pup, the whole bonding thing, and the fact you know exactly how the pup was raised, etc.

But as stockwork talent is a genetic thing, and you can´t really know wheter the pup cuts it or not before real training has started, I now would prefer a dog that is at least started, for instance a year old or so.

Personally I think it is the worst to end up with a dog you owned for one or two years, only to find out it is useless for the intended work. And that is mainly because you have bonded with the dog...

[bcnewe2]

For a small time thing, like what I think you are planning on Geonni, I think you could start with a pup out of nicely bred working dogs and have the cards stacked enough in your favor that it would probably work for what you need.

 

I have placed a few dogs over the year that I didn't think were the right match for me. Either house issues with other dogs or not gonna be the dog I want on stock.

 

But for a beginner with a few sheep you don't need a rocket scientist dog, a good farm dog would suit you fine. Stacking the odds with a well bred pup would probably do just fine. As long as you have help starting the pup and breaking your sheep.

 

I like puppies as it's hard for me to work older dogs into my pack due to one jerky dog I already own. I find starting with a pup makes the house thing work better, but if it were just for working and going to be kenneled outside or not have to be an inside pack member, I would probably go for a young adult so I didn't have to wait the year for the pup to mature.

 

And yes it is hard to place a dog if you raised it from puppy hood. But here, when the dogs aren't getting along and they are right under my nose it makes it easier to place a dog. I've always looked for homes that would be better than I can offer, it may take a while for me to find the perfect place but I'm usually pretty sure by the time I place the dog somewhere else that it's gonna work well, haven't had one come back yet.

 

Dew (my last pup) fit into my house perfectly, she didn't turn on to stock like I needed her to right away, she's not really an open running prospect but....I loved her so kept her, then somewhere around 4 she totally changed and is the perfect farm dog that I need, Had I placed her earlier when I thought she wasn't working out I'd of missed what she was truly made of. She just took a longer amount of time to get her head on her little self! She is still the baby of my pack and probably will always be that way. But she can put in one heck of a days work and we get our jobs done nicely.

[Alchemist]

Here's a contrarian view. Duncan's trainer purchases most of her dogs (those she doesn't breed herself, that is) as small puppies (~ 7 weeks old). (She's highly regarded as a trainer and handler). Not to say she hasn't occasionally purchased a dog a bit older (one of her current Open dogs was purchased as an untrained dog at about nine months of age).

 

I asked her about it once. She does like bonding with puppies, and doing the initial obedience work with them as puppies. I think she also likes to make sure they're being trained correctly. Yes, she does sometimes end up with dogs that aren't cut out for a career in trialing at top levels. She works hard to re-home them. If it's just that they can't handle the range sheep out west, a home with a novice handler in the east would be perfect. If it's a dog that can't handle the stress of trialing at all, then she'll look for a home where the dog can still be useful with stock. And if it just doesn't have enough interest in stock, but is otherwise a great potential agility dog, then she'll look for months to find it the home where it can be the center of its new owners' attention. (And only sell it for the cost of spaying or neutering).

 

She's also said that not everyone can train a pup/young dog; some people just don't have the skills. These people, she says, should buy trained dogs. Similarly, there are people who shouldn't try to raise a puppy. They just don't have the consistency that lets a puppy know that the rules are the rules, no exceptions. Hers still get to "be a puppy", but the boundaries she does impose are consistently enforced.

 

In other words, it seems (as with most things) it's partly a matter of personal tastes, but partly also a matter of aptitude - the handler's and the dog's alike. It's good to recognize your (as well as your dog's) limitations.

[Mark Billadeau]

I wondered - at what age do you get a pup for stock work?

We have gotten most of our pups at birth.

Of our current dogs that would be 5 out of 7 were whelped by us.

The other two were purchased from a very well respected trainer (one as a pup with no training the other as a started dog).

 

To date we have only sold on 2 dogs that did not measure up to what we wanted in a working dog.

[NorthfieldNick]

After buying a well-started 2 yr old, and raising a pup from 5 months, I'll take the older dog! Although at 2 now, Hoot is much more of a nut than Nick ever was. I think Nick was born level-headed.

 

I do wonder if Hoot would be less of an ass if I'd had him from the start. He had very little structure or boundaries for those first few months, and he's still one to take a mile if you give an inch. He's turned into a pretty nice stock dog, even if he never makes it trialling.

[Laurae]

There is no shame in getting an older, trained dog. Getting a trained dog is a valid choice for lots of people for a huge variety of reasons, not necessarily only because they are not as skilled as they could be. As a brand-new working dog owner with what will be an immediate need for a partner with livestock, you may find that getting a trained dog is the best option for you, and it doesn't particularly mean you are making a less ideal choice based on your own limitations. It would just mean you are making the best choice based on your own unique circumstances. Or, you may decide to get a young dog/pup and start taking lessons as soon as the pup is ready, so you and pup the will have a little experience under your belts when you do move and need to start managing your own flock. Either way, it would be very beneficial to find a trainer to help you learn to do this. Is there anyone in your new area that you could start talking to who might mentor you through this process?

[Carson Crazies]

I would say that if you ARE going to go with a puppy I'd research a LOT. I'd be looking for lines that pretty reliably throw dogs that are not difficult to train. Dogs that pretty much work right out of the box. That being said, unless you have close by and reliable trainers to help you it would make a lot of sense to go with a trained or partially trained dog.

[Covelo Dogs]

In my opinion, if you have never had stock you should get a trained dog.

A pup needs to grow up before it starts working stock and a lot can go wrong in those first 12 months.

With a trained dog you then have the opportunity to learn about the livestock without the pressure of trying to control a young untrained dog.

I purchased two trained dogs after failing with a pup. Both were very different in temperament and working style and taught me alot.

I also have had to rehome a dog that as he matured caused a lot of friction with the other dogs.

The other thing to consider is it maybe less expensive to buy a fully trained dog than to purchase a pup and then send it to a trainer for 3-4 months.

Bonding with the trained dogs was not an issue.

But in the last four years I have purchased pups raised them to 10-11 months and then sent them to a trainer to start.

If you have the opportunity to observe dogs at different levels of training it may help you decide what you feel you are going to need, a trained dog, a started dog or do you have the ability to start a pup. I have come to realize that I do not have the temperament to start a pup and so have opted to have someone else start them for me.

[Debbie Meier]

I'm not addressing this specifically to you Geonni, more to any number of people that may be reading this thread.

 

Alot depends on the individual buying the pup and to what degree they want to use the dog on stock. I've met people that really need a dog but are not great trainers, they may be better off purchasing a trained dog as often times a train dog is cheaper then purchasing a pup, raising it and then sending it off to a trainer for a period of time.

 

If the goal is to understand how to train and use a stock dog then a pup out of well bred parents and proven lines would be the most cost effective way to go, if you can get one from a breeder close to you that will help you with the pup all the better.

 

If your goal is to make your pup into a competitive open level sheep or cattle dog you may be better off spending the money on a well started dog if you can find one available that someone else is letting go or even purchasing a already proven dog. But be forewarned, one persons idea of a open calibur prospect might be someone else's idea of a wash out.

 

The puppy crap shoot is different for each buyer, the more you expect of a pup and the more specific you are with your expectation the higher the odds are against ending up with one that suits you when selecting from a litter.

 

Purchasing a pup from a established working dog breeder and from a proven repeat breeding, along with having the mindset of being willing to train and use whatever you end up with to the best of it's individual ability, is the best way to ensure that you will end up with something useful.

 

We got lucky when we purchased our first dog, he was from a established breeder but it was a first time mating, many of our dogs littermates and siblings from the following breeding didn't make it. If I knew what I know now I might try to purchase from a established breeder that is repeating a cross that has already proven to produce a high rate of useful dogs. On the other hand, when we did purchase our first pup he was already 4 months old and working so we knew at minimum that he had the want and desire, it was more a matter of us being able to train him.

 

If you can find them, 16 week old pups are a pretty safe bet that are from a established breeder/trainer, you can get an idea of temperment, how they handle pressure and training along with the amount of natural ability on livestock. They might cost you a bit more then a 8 week old, but then again they might not if your expectation and needs of what you want from the pup as a adult is lower then the breeder/trainer you are purchasing from.

 

When looking at older pups I would stay steer clear of pups that have not been handled and left to their own devices. Look for a breeder that is raising the pups with the intentions of taking them further in their training if they don't sell vs. the breeder that considers them to be unsold left overs and just wants them gone.

[Mark Billadeau]

Purchasing a pup from a established working dog breeder and from a proven repeat breeding, along with having the mindset of being willing to train and use whatever you end up with to the best of it's individual ability, is the best way to ensure that you will end up with something useful.

Your training ability, your needs, and your budget will all play into what is the best decision for you.

The above is the best way to maximize your chances of getting a pup to meet your needs.

[Lana]

 

If you can find them, 16 week old pups are a pretty safe bet that are from a established breeder/trainer, you can get an idea of temperment, how they handle pressure and training along with the amount of natural ability on livestock. They might cost you a bit more then a 8 week old, but then again they might not if your expectation and needs of what you want from the pup as a adult is lower then the breeder/trainer you are purchasing from.

 

 

While posting vidoes of 16 week old pups jumping at and maybe circling stock may look cool to try and sell pups, it is a fantasy to think that this behavior at 16 weeks is an indicator of a greater chance of handling pressure or becoming good stock dogs.

 

Look for breeders who have the dogs and do the kind of work you admire.

[Debbie Meier]

While posting vidoes of 16 week old pups jumping at and maybe circling stock may look cool to try and sell pups, it is a fantasy to think that this behavior at 16 weeks is an indactor of a greater chance of handling pressure or becoming good stock dogs.

 

So is your opinion and I suspect that since you breed and raise pups yourself and have personal expirence that you have vetted your opinion personally. I'm not alone in the belief and feeling that what you see as a pup is what you will have as a dog. Even sport people are figuring it out.

[juliepoudrier]

I have to agree with Lana. There are precious few pups that are going to show anyone what sort of training pressure (training pressure, seriously? I know my 16-week-old will attempt to gather and will circle stock, but wouldn't dream of putting training pressure on her at such a tender age) they can take.

 

You may well see natural ability--the sort of thing Laura C. alludes to--but suggesting that a newbie to stockworking could somehow judge a pup's trainability, talent, or ability to take training pressure is a stretch.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

I'm not alone in the belief and feeling that what you see as a pup is what you will have as a dog.

There are so many caveats to this statement that I wonder if it's worth making it on an open forum where there are many readers with no experience in training young dogs. There are so many examples of puppy behavior around livestock that disappear with maturity and/or training that a novice stockdog person could misuse your statement to incorrectly label a pup as worthless for a future in stockwork.

[geonni banner]

I think that for me an adult, trained dog would be best. But I was wondering. Do people ever retire dogs that are still capable of light work? Maybe someone who mostly trials, or a larger outfit that has a dog that is "running out of gas" in big paddocks due to getting on in years. With any dog I'll probably need more training than it does, and I imagine that a veteran would be steady and could teach me a lot.

 

I'm sure many people keep their "old pensioners", but others may not. It might be good for someone to know that an older dog was going to a place it would be part of a family and loved until it passes. Plus it would have a little something to do, and so not lose the chance to work altogether.

 

Also, I've not had the opportunity to try my present dog on stock. It is possible that she might be useful enough for what I will need. There is time to give her a chance to show what she has - or doesn't. I can't imagine parting with her for any reason, except being unable to care for her. And she gets on well with other dogs.

[juliepoudrier]

Geonni,

People do indeed rehome pensioners. If you are unable to attend trials and get to know folks, it might be harder for you to find something like that, but there are plenty of folks who would love to have good, light-work retirement homes for their older dogs.

 

ETA: You probably don't want a dog who needs to be retired, but rather a middle aged dog who someone wants to place to make room for youngsters coming along. That is, a 7- to 10-year-old in good health could probably be helpful to you, but a dog that's at the very end of its useful life won't be much help, or at least not for very long.

 

J.

[jdarling]

Excellent post, Lana.

[Alchemist]

Sometimes you can also get a trained dog who is sold at a discount for reasons having nothing to do with their skills on stock or how well they get along with their owner or other dogs. I know a novice handler who just bought a very nice, trained dog, from a highly regarded handler/breeder. The dog had developed pyo while pregnant and had lost the litter and had had to undergo an emergency spay to save her life.

[PSmitty]

Sometimes you can also get a trained dog who is sold at a discount for reasons having nothing to do with their skills on stock or how well they get along with their owner or other dogs. I know a novice handler who just bought a very nice, trained dog, from a highly regarded handler/breeder. The dog had developed pyo while pregnant and had lost the litter and had had to undergo an emergency spay to save her life.

 

You many not know the answer, but I'm curious...so why was the dog sold, then?

[workindogs]

I have to agree with Lana and Julie. While video footage of 16 wk pups showing instinct is cute and makes for interesting viewing....it doesn't really say much about the future ability of that pup to take the pressure of training or it's future as a stockdog. Another 16 wk pup might turn on later and still be a very talented working dog and very capable of handling training pressure. I've seen very keen youngsters high on adrenaline who appear resilient or even oblivious to pressure as wee babies who later become more sensitive as they mature (instead of running on adrenaline, they mature and begin to feel the training pressure).

[Alchemist]

You many not know the answer, but I'm curious...so why was the dog sold, then?

 

As this person breeds Border collies, a proven working dog that can reproduce is more useful to them than a dog that cannot. I'm guessing it's hard to justify investing a lot of time in continuing to train and trial a dog if you know (as a breeder) that you'll never be able to recoup any of these expenses at all.

 

I think it's an issue of how many dogs you can really keep. Or trial. Better to sell/rehome one that is otherwise healthy but won't get enough of a chance to work as much as it might than relegate it to a second-tier status.

 

The new owner is absolutely thrilled with her new dog and they've already started to really click as a pair.

[juliepoudrier]

Interesting philosophy. A good dog may not be a breeder itself, but could possibly be used as a selling point for closely related dogs, if making money off breeding is that important.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

As this person breeds Border collies, a proven working dog that can reproduce is more useful to them than a dog that cannot. I'm guessing it's hard to justify investing a lot of time in continuing to train and trial a dog if you know (as a breeder) that you'll never be able to recoup any of these expenses at all.

 

I think it's an issue of how many dogs you can really keep. Or trial. Better to sell/rehome one that is otherwise healthy but won't get enough of a chance to work as much as it might than relegate it to a second-tier status.

 

The new owner is absolutely thrilled with her new dog and they've already started to really click as a pair.

 

Thank you.

 

I'll just leave it at "interesting", too.