coastmom Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I have a female border collie rescue (age 2) whom I've had for 3 months. Beautiful dog, starting on agility and herding, doing great in so many ways. When we (my teenage daughter and I) got her, she was very submissive, shy, generally a bit reserved but friendly to everyone. Lately, she has taken to barking and growling when people come to visit. This evening, despite my firmly and repeatedly telling her not to, she kept growling at a neighbor who had stepped in the front door. She has bonded to us very strongly, and now obviously thinks part of her job is to protect us--even when we don't **need** protection. Any thoughts or suggestions? I'm actually rather concerned that this not get out of hand. I don't want it to escalate to lunging, snarling or biting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 This may be a fear response, not protection. I would suggest finding local training help from someone experienced with shy dogs. Where do you live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastmom Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 The thing is, though, why would she become MORE fearful? She is actually more confident than before. I really do think it's a function of her deeper bond with us. It seems very protective. I just wondered if anyone had specifically dealt with this problem before and had any advice. (We do have trainers here, but figured there might be someone who had been in a similar boat.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I agree with Liz that your dog's reaction is probably fear-based. Not surprising since she came to you as a shy dog. IMHO, she is not protecting you - she is telling visitors that she is uncomfortable. A positive reinforcement trainer experienced with fear-aggressive dogs would be very helpful. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastmom Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Like I said--this is new behavior, and is accompanying increasing confidence in the dog. She did not react this way previously to visitors to our home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Another thought occurred to me: I think it would be helpful to invest in "Love Has No Age Limit" by Patricia McConnell. She covers how to successfully transition older rescue dogs to new homes and how to deal with many common problems that may crop up. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Trust us when we tell you it is fear based. Her true personality is coming out because she is settling in to your home as her own. She is feeling more confidant about expressing her true feeling towards strangers. My rescued girl was the exact same way, shy & submissive at first but eventually got to where she was difficult with strangers (with in 6mos or so). ETA: with careful handling & training she is fine with most all people now...but she still hates my dad (he is not good with dogs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Like I said--this is new behavior, and is accompanying increasing confidence in the dog. She did not react this way previously to visitors to our home. This is not an unusual pattern in some rescue dogs. Probably not very common, but not unheard of. This same pattern occurred recently in 2 dogs in the rescue group I work with. It nevers hurts to at least investigate all possibilities and options. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastmom Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Yeah, I'm happy to investigate everything--and whether it's fear or protection-based, I still need to address it. I think what I was looking for was perhaps a particular way of dealing with it that someone had tried successfully and might share. I was able to handle it ok with this neighbor (by getting between the dog and the neighbor and making it very clear that the neighbor was a friend), but it's obvious to me that it's something that's going to need more addressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 For the time being, how about putting her in a room where she is comfortable while you have visitors? That will keep the situation from escalating and give you time to work with her. The fact is, that getting between her and the neighbor won't communicate to her that the visitor is a "friend". She might do better the next time because the friend will be familiar. Or, the reaction could become stronger. There are quite a lot of things that you can try that have worked for others who have dealt with the same issue. I would also recommend a reinforcement based trainer who has experience working with reactive and fearful dogs. I suggest trying to find someone who has experience with the Control Unleashed program (my first choice), or with Click to Calm/TACT, or with BAT (note: BAT, not CAT - they are very different although sort of based on the same starting premise) If you need a reference in your area, feel free to PM me your general location and I can see if I can find you a referral, if you are interested in pursuing that course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastmom Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Appreciate the specific reference. We are doing clicker training for other things (obedience, agility). I found a good link on the BAT system and see it is very close to other clicker-related activities. Will look into that more thoroughly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Good for you for wanting to get a handle on this ASAP. Certainly, it might take a while (particularly since the holidays are upon us) to find an appropriate trainer, so if you can try something in the meantime, it might help. Is your dog food-motivated? If so, try and assauge her fear with treats -- really good, high-value treats, not just kibble. Use cooked chicken, cut-up hot dog bits or even bits of deli roast beef. Set up a training situation where a visitor comes to the door and throws food at the dog. (Or you can set up this same situation where you walk your dog by a stranger who throws food.) She does not have to get close enough to take food from their hand at first. Don't force her to get closer than she is comfortable with. You are just trying to get her to make a connection between scary visitor (negative) and great treats (positive). If she gets great treats every time she sees a stranger, eventually she should come to see them as a source of goodness and actually start approaching them in a friendly manner looking for more treats. At least that is one theory. Every dog has its own timetable so this behavior modification may take a while. Others on this board may have additional ideas. When I adopted a rescue dog and attended a basic obedience class, the instructor wanted us to socialize our dogs by introducing them to 100 different people over a period of 4 weeks (using lots of treats and praise). That was a lofty goal, and not many of us were able to achieve it, but the general idea was that the more positive exposures the dog had, the more comfortable it would be in social situations. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastmom Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Great ideas, Jovi. Thanks--will try the stranger-treating thing (just need to enlist some willing "strangers"). And I do know what are "high value" food treats for this dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I have an aussie who went through the same thing and it was definitely fear aggression. He used to submissive urinate in the beginning as well. What you are witnessing is more likely to be resource guarding you that "protecting" you. Set it up so that your dog greets new people outside the house where she doesn't feel quite so territorial. Guests can treat her there before entering. If she is escalating the behavior, my advice would be to separate her physically from company until you are able to work with her and see improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 You can also teach her a 'go to your mat' cue. The mat should be in an out of the way spot, maybe in another room. Make that mat a really, really great place to be! Get her used to hanging out there. Then, teach her that a knock on the door/doorbell ringing is a cue to go to her mat. She can be out of the way of visitors, and you can even slip a baby gate across a door, so that she can see/hear what's going on, but feels protected from intrusive strangers. You would benefit from some good help. In the meantime, don't force her to accept attention from guests. Let her keep her distance, and reinforce her for calm behavior. How is she when she sees a stranger outside, like when you're walking her? Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rufftie Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 i agree with gcv. start a treat program. my rescue border was reactive with strangers when i first got her. i needed her to accept them fairly quickly as they are my dog/house sitters. i kept yummy treats near the door or brought them with me when i answered the door and gave them to the "strangers". they started with just tossing the treat to nova if she wouldn't come close and then handing them to her. they kept some treats as they sat on the furniture and continued treating. she still "warns" me when people are coming up the driveway but must give all welcomed into the house a border collie hug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjohanna Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I second Ruth, I would teach the dog a 'go to your mat' cue and have her go to her 'safe' place when people come over. From there, she can meet the visitors if she is comfortable, or she can remain in her own space. I also agree this is anxiety-based -- I think when we humans read 'fear' we take it to mean something stronger than what your dog is displaying. What I got from your posts: --Your dog is becoming much more settled into your home, more comfortable with your household and routines, resulting in a dog who is much more confident in her surroundings. --Like almost all herding dogs, your dog is acutely sensitive to changes in her environment, and that includes the emotional energy of her surroundings, not just the physical things that we humans see (we disregard so much that our dogs notice). --When there is a change in her household environment, your girl becomes anxious. Not only does she have some baggage/stress from her early life, but Border Collies are control freaks in general. --She expresses her anxiety with 'go away' and 'make this stop' behaviors such as growling or acting unwelcoming. This is what you see as protective behavior, but there is no threat at all to you or your family from your visitors, and your dog is not sensing a threat to you, she is feeling that her safe world has shifted a bit and she is not sure how to respond. Does that make sense? So if that is what's happening, giving her a behavior that allows her to respond properly to visitors is the best thing for you both. She will feel less anxious, you will have a well-behaved dog, and eventually your girl, as she settles in even more, may come to like some or all visitors -- once she knows that they are not changing her world and that she can go somewhere away from them if she needs to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Just wanted to add, we're on our 4th bc. Of our four, 2 were very, very friendly to visitors to our home, one basically didn't care for people but just kept herself out of the way, and one is a bit fear aggressive. It's not unusual, and as Johanna says, these dogs are very, very alert to changes in the environment. To you, the strangers appearing in the doorway are friends and you're very glad to see them. To your dog, they're a sudden change, she knows nothing about them except that they startled her, and the visitors make you act differently. I'd be alarmed, too! And thank you for taking this girl in! You did a wonderful thing. Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I agree with others that she is not protecting you. Most dog owners want to believe that their dog is so bonded with them that they will protect you but most dogs are incapable of this. BC's are not protection dogs. What you describe sounds like it is fear-based. I would definitely teach her a 'place' command, what others on here refer to as 'mat work'. Get her a bed or a cot (the ones made for dogs) and teach her to go to it. This is a happy/safe place where she can do whatever she wants (sit, down, sleep, whatever) as long as she stays on the place. Reward her a lot while she is there and release her (most people use "break") when you want. This way when people come into the house she knows she is safe but yet she is out in the room (not locked in another room or crate which isn't going to help her at all). Research mat work or place so that you get a better understanding of it. It can really work wonders (most people use it for dogs that get too excited when company comes over or they put their dog on place while the people eat, etc). I also wanted to note that you can send your dog to their place for 1 minute or an hour. In your case you would want to wait to release her until she looks completely calm when people come over. This could be 2 minutes or an hour later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 It is important to understand that it's fear based so that you don't correct/punnish her. Doing so will only make her reactions worse. Instead, you need to work on making strangers coming over a pleasurable experience to look forward to. Try this web page for some great training tips www.dogstardaily.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastmom Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Thanks to EVERYONE for the great advice. Exactly what I was hoping for and really really helpful. She's a beautiful dog who still has a ways to go, but so far she's been a great learner with everything (well...except reliably fetching a ball, but that's another story!) so I'm optimistic she can change in this regard also. Thanks so much, all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 OK, you know that you now owe us pics. :D Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelleybean Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 I would like to add that this is not just a rescue dog problem. My dog has very similar issues, and I've had her since she was 10 wks old. We've come a long way, but she is still very territorial at home. I would walk her daily through town, and hand out treats for strangers to give her. She was also very fearful of children, and would lunge at them if they came too close. (Thank goodness she never actually bit one!) I have found that children at dog trials are great to enlist in giving treats because they are dog savy. Now she expects for all children to have treats for her! We started by clicking and treating if she just looked at the scarey thing (another dog, a person, or a child) I gradually decreased the distance between the scarey thing and where we were, until she could stand next to whatever was the scarey thing without reacting. I eventually made it so that she would have to touch another dog or child to get a treat. Now this took about a year to accomplish with consistant training, but now I have a very sweet collie, but I will never trust her completely to not nip someone. I always make sure that she doesn't feel trapped, that she can always get away if she wants to, and I never let people fawn over her. It is critical that you keep your dog under threshold to keep the fear response from escalating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelleybean Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Oh, and ditto on the pics!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastmom Posted December 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 You guys can see my profile pic, can't you? I can't see it myself on my own posts. Will add more photos later when I have time...Thanks again for all the great help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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