agility venues???

[Root Beer]

I answered an Agility question in the context of an Agility discussion. Jodi, if you or Journey choose to try to read more into what I wrote than that, that's your choice. However, there is, in reality, nothing about stockwork in my response.

 

If that is not the question SS Cressa intended to ask, then my response won't be of use to her, but no particular stockwork qualification is required in order for one to thoughtfully discuss the cultivation of handler focus though one particular Agility venue and how it might affect performance in another Agility venue.

 

I would be interested in what others think regarding NADAC and the handler focus question. If anyone does feel that training for NADAC would cause a dog to have too much handler focus in other Agility venues, then why? Again, it would seem to me that if training for NADAC would encourage any "imbalance" of focus (without due attention to cultivating a balance between obstacle and handler focus through training), it would lean more toward obstacle focus.

[Root Beer]

It's the agility handlers' habits that are hard to break ... like when they continue to point to where they want their dog to go, or throw their shoulders in front of the dog.

 

Those aren't going to be very effective "habits", either, if one is running a fast dog in NADAC and the dog is running 20 feet or more out ahead of the handler at top speed. The dog isn't going to see where you are pointing and the shoulders are not going to be ahead of the dog at that point. Other handling skills are needed.

 

That's a big reason why NADAC can be such a unique challenge, especially if you have a fast dog. I enjoy that challenge, myself, but it doesn't appeal to everyone.

[mum24dog]

In my experience with stockwork and watching agility folks put their dogs on stock for the first time ... (all dogs are different, but) in most cases, the dog adjusts. It's the agility handlers' habits that are hard to break ... like when they continue to point to where they want their dog to go, or throw their shoulders in front of the dog.

 

Sounds very likely to me - and the reverse.

We've had people come to us for agility who have only ever been used to working dogs and it's very difficult to get them to use their bodies more.

Obedience people trying agility are the opposite - they don't tend to don't trust the dog to work independently.

Just my experience but rather indicates what a lot of us know - people are much harder to train than dogs.

 

Without any first hand of stockwaork, but a lot of experience of dogs generally, I would back Root Beer up on the grounds that dogs are a lot more adaptable than many people give them credit for and recognise different contexts very well. Whether concentrating on more than one discipline would be likely to maximise potential in any of them I think is doubtful though. A few handlers can get to the top in whatever they try their hand at but most have to make compromises along the line.

 

I do know that it is perfectly possible for a dog to be a good enough working dog and a good enough agility dog - good enough meaning able to do the job the owner wants it to do without thought of top flight competition in either.

[Root Beer]

Whether concentrating on more than one discipline would be likely to maximise potential in any of them I think is doubtful though. A few handlers can get to the top in whatever they try their hand at but most have to make compromises along the line.

 

Speaking strictly of cross training in different sport venues, it has been my experience that it is far less likely to maximize potential in any one venue when spreading one's focus across several. I am sure there are people who are talented and dedicated enough to do so. Mary Ray comes to mind. But you don't see it that often and I believe that for the vast majority of people, it is far more difficult to maximize potential when spreading one's time, resources, practice, and focus across disciplines. Again, there are most certainly exceptions, and note, I said "far more difficult", not "impossible".

 

I know that for myself, I am far less likely to become excellent at any one sport because I choose to train in three different disciplines than I would if I were to choose one and focus on it exclusively. Again, I don't say this is the case for everyone, but the majority of people that I know who have become excellent at one sport or another did focus mainly on that sport, at least until they did become highly proficient at it. Years of training, learning, practice, and commitment went into that one discipline. There are some advantages to cross training, but the simple fact of splitting practice time between three, by default, limits the time that can be dedicated to any one.

 

I hope that doesn't sound at all like I'm complaining, because I'm not. My choice to continue to actively participate in three sports with multiple dogs is a deliberate decision that I have made, taking this particular disadvantage into account. I love all three disciplines and I would rather do the best I can while enjoying all three than to aspire to excellence in any one. I prefer to aspire to "good" or "proficient" in all three than "excellent" in any one. Personal preference based on what my dogs and I are looking to get out of sports.

 

But I absolutely recognize that I am not likely to maximize potential in any because of it.

 

In addition, I do run into times when I inadvertently mix skills between sports. Sometimes this is a good thing, and sometimes . . . it's not!! I don't consider it a big deal, though. Part of the learning process is getting it all sorted out.

[SS Cressa]

Re-worded probably looks something like this: "I wonder if training for regular or NADAC agility can interfere with herding since in agility you focus on the dog being very handler focused and learning to depend on the handler for directions."

 

 

You are right this should probably go in a different section. But that isn't what I meant.

 

I was more wondering if some NADAC classes/competition would be a benefit for dogs that are looking to do herding. Vs the other agility venues that want more of a handler focus dog.

 

As to others while I am not limited to how I run cressa. I don't need to be on top of her for her to read my body language. When I can't breathe I can be 3-4 jumps behind her and she can still do rear crosses without me being right there. I can still get her to the correct obstacle without being right behind her. Maybe I am misreading what people are saying?

[mum24dog]

I was more wondering if some NADAC classes/competition would be a benefit for dogs that are looking to do herding. Vs the other agility venues that want more of a handler focus dog.

 

I'm not sure that a dog would make much of a distinction between one type of competition where the handler and dog need to work close together and another where they can be further apart. Even the one where the dog and handler aren't velcroed together nowhere near approaches the independence a working dog needs. Either type of course still depends on direction from the handler rather than the dog making the right decisions for itself.

 

But what do I know?

[airbear]

FWIW, my youngest dog, who just started running Open this year, isn't much of a gamblers dog yet. He can take commands at 400+ yards on sheep but 15' in agility is a problem. However, I think it's more of a training issue in agility. I hate gamblers and don't train much distance (but that, along with cleaning up rear crosses, is my New Years 'gilities resolution!). I truly don't believe that the venue you trial in for agility would influence at all how your dog does at herding.

[KelliePup]

Here's how I see it:

 

KZ is focused when we train agility. She's very focused when we train obedience, that carries over to her rally and freestyle. She's very, very, very focused when I throw her ball or her disc.

 

On sheep, it's completely different. She's attentive to most of the commands, but her actual focus is on the sheep. She will literally vibrate for a good five minutes before she's calm enough to go into the pasture (I don't have sheep of my own).

 

My personal opinion and experience would, at this time, lead me to believe that running agility in any venue, or training competitive obedience, or freestyle, or disc dog, or flyball, or just standing in your backyard throwing a tennis ball would not make the dog too handler dependent once that instinct takes over. This is simply because, in KZ's world (and other border collies I have seen), stock trumps everything. I know to KZ, everything else is play. Working stock is what she was born to do.

 

Just my two cents.

[Maralynn]

IMO, it's hard to train a dog to be good at both agility and stockwork. But I think it's more a handler issue than a dog/venue one(if your dog has the aptitude for stock work). Training to be good at something takes a lot of time/resources. Most people don't have time/money/inclination to train for both, or they'll focus on one more than the other.

 

As far as cross training goes it's not agility but Kipp absolutely knows the difference between SAR and sheep. I've worked him around the barns and through the pasture with search problems. Bell collar on and he's working upright, searching, ignoring the fact that there are sheep 50 ft away. No bell collar and get near the barn/pasture and he's crouching and ready to go for sheep work.

[Root Beer]

My personal opinion and experience would, at this time, lead me to believe that running agility in any venue, or training competitive obedience, or freestyle, or disc dog, or flyball, or just standing in your backyard throwing a tennis ball would not make the dog too handler dependent once that instinct takes over. This is simply because, in KZ's world (and other border collies I have seen), stock trumps everything.

 

Also, consider whether or not the handler focus that is cultivated in sports transfers over to the dog's life outside of sports in general. I haven't found that it does. When my dogs are at the beach, for instance, they aren't prancing around in heel, focused on me. They are running around, playing in the waves, chasing toys, etc., acting like dogs "at ease" because - at that moment - that's exactly what they are.

 

Or when we are hiking, if I started to execute front or rear crosses, I would be completely ignored. In that context, that would mean absolutely nothing. The dogs are paying attention to the woods, to the scents, to running around, etc. They are tuned into me enough to answer a recall, and they "check in" as dogs often do naturally, but they aren't "handler focused" in the way they are on the Agility field.

 

Recently I tried out some beginning scent work with Tessa (very fun!!). I was working with a couple of other people and all of our dogs are trained to have a lot of handler focus when in a ring with the handler. Much of the scent work required the dog to break off handler focus and work off of instinct instead. At first the dogs did default to focus on us. And, when Tessa wasn't sure what I wanted, she focused on me and offered some behaviors. Some of the other dogs did that, as well, much to our amusement But once they understood what was expected of them in that context, the handler focus was dropped and they all put their focus on using their noses to do the scent exercises. It was fascinating to watch that understanding dawn on them.

 

If I were to pursue the scent work with Tessa - and I may after she progresses a bit more with her Agility - I would not expect that any of her Agility work, whether centered on NADAC or another venue - would have any bearing on that particular work whatsoever. Yes, it is work that requires a certain level of independence, but it really is a different kind of independence. If she is out 30 feet ahead of me executing a discrimination, she is still doing so because I have directed her to do so in some way, even if that is simply through the path that I have chosen to run. That in spite of the fact that she is way out there "on her own". But if she is searching for a certain scent, she must use her own nose to search it out. Ultimately, I would not be able to direct her to it since it is very unlikely that I would even be able to detect it. Handler focus would do her absolutely no good in that context.

 

I would expect that she would ultimately be able to toggle - in an instant - between walking with me in heel with eye contact to breaking off on her own to go find a scent. Or to go find a scent on her own, and, upon moving onto an Agility field, be able to run an Agility course with me directing her through it. She would learn, through experience, when a high level of handler focus is appropriate, and when such a level of handler focus is neither needed nor desired.

[SS Cressa]

Maybe off topic...

 

But I do expect my dogs to be able to perform crosses in public places. On hikes, in stores, etc... and I have done them with the dogs understanding what I want. But Ive always encouraged my dogs to be handler focus. I also treat the crosses no different then I do downs and stay. Just basic obedience that should be **poke troy** second nature to them. I also expect either dog to down no matter what they are after. Shrug I think that is just basic difference in raising them though. I don't like my dogs unaware of me. If they blow past me with no thought about me... I take off running in the opposite direction till they do become more aware of where I am and/ or what I am doing. Then we continue on our walk/hike.

 

I know at one of the outdoor trials we were at I guess a fox had marked or something in the ring. Talking with the judge afterwards she was commenting on how she could tell which dogs hunted or were scent dogs. They would all pause or bobble or out and out stop and check out where the fox had marked. Just thought it was interesting.

 

Thanks again everyone for your insight to your chooses venue.

[mum24dog]

I know at one of the outdoor trials we were at I guess a fox had marked or something in the ring. Talking with the judge afterwards she was commenting on how she could tell which dogs hunted or were scent dogs. They would all pause or bobble or out and out stop and check out where the fox had marked. Just thought it was interesting.

 

IME it's the dogs that aren't interested enough in doing Agility to shut everything else out that will stop for a sniff rather than whether it is used to hunt or do scent work. (The very worst dog I know for spotting scents on a course is a Min Schnauzer.) If anything the ones that actually are trained to work are the ones that can ignore distractions because they aren't allowed to follow their inclinations just when they feel like it. In fact some recommend gundog training for troublesome Agility spaniels here.

 

What was the original question.

[Root Beer]

Maybe off topic...

 

But I do expect my dogs to be able to perform crosses in public places. On hikes, in stores, etc... and I have done them with the dogs understanding what I want. But Ive always encouraged my dogs to be handler focus.

 

I could, too, in public places, if I gave the dog some indication that I was looking for that kind of focus. I don't mean that it wouldn't be possible to practice a cross in a public place, but that there are times when it is appropriate for the dogs to be focused on what they are doing, rather than their specific position in relationship to me.

 

I guess it is definitely a matter of personal preference, but most of the time, my dogs are "off duty". Yes, if we are out in public, they are aware that we are together, but I don't expect the kind of handler focus that I do in the ring. There are times when I consider it perfectly appropriate for them to "blow past" and run, or sniff, or head for the water, or whatever. I don't mean to imply that they are completely unaware of me, but that the kind of positional focus that I look for on the Agility field is not there 100% of the time. I wouldn't want that kind of handler focus as the default in everyday life.

 

But I can see how if that were the case, it would make it very difficult to do any kind of activity where the kind of handler focus is not desired. So, it's not so much "Agility" as whether the handler cultivates the same level of positional focus that one wants in Agility at all times outside of the ring. And in that case, I doubt it would matter what kind of Agility one does.

 

I know at one of the outdoor trials we were at I guess a fox had marked or something in the ring. Talking with the judge afterwards she was commenting on how she could tell which dogs hunted or were scent dogs. They would all pause or bobble or out and out stop and check out where the fox had marked. Just thought it was interesting.

 

I would expect my dogs to keep running, head in the game, in spite of the scent, even if they had scent training, in the context of running Agility. Scent work does not entail the dog breaking off randomly to sniff when engaged in another focused task. But if we had left the ring and the dogs were running down to the pond, I would consider it perfectly normal and appropriate them to stop and check out the scent (now, outside the ring), even if they were not scent trained. The difference is the context and the task at hand. In the Agility ring, the job at hand is Agility and that does not entail stopping to sniff. When doing Agility, I do want "Agility focus". When on an "at ease" walk, the "task" (for lack of a better word) is enjoyment. At that time, I want a more "passive focus" where the dog is aware of me and we are together, but the dog is being a dog - sniffing, taking in what's around, and doing "dog things". When running Agility in the ring, it's not time to scent. On a walk, it most certainly is. I expect my performance dogs to know the difference, and I train them accordingly. I enjoy training that way.

 

Thanks again everyone for your insight to your chooses venue.

 

Thanks for bringing up the topic. It's an excellent one!!

[Maralynn]

Also, consider whether or not the handler focus that is cultivated in sports transfers over to the dog's life outside of sports in general.

 

I think it does in some manner. Probably dependent on the individual dog and the level of training. Not that a dog is always going to be doing a focused heel, but more to the effect of what that dog is going to default to when it's unsure. A highly focused trained dog is going to gravitate to looking to it's handler for direction when it's unsure. I don't think it matters as much in training that is very much handler directed, but with stockwork where where you have a highly biddable dog that needs to rely on their own instincts as well I can see where it would be an issue if you have a dog with a year or two of competitive OB training and then go to stockwork.

[mum24dog]

Probably dependent on the individual dog and the level of training.

 

And to some extent method of training. A clicker trained dog that has been used to shaping rather than modelling or luring will have been conditioned to use its brain rather than rely on clues as to what will bring a reward. Commonly we find that a dog that is used to being shown what to do will just stand there if unsure whereas a clicker trained dog should work through its current repertoire and then try new things to figure it out.

 

I say to some extent because I wouldn't suggest that even clicker training would necessarily produce the instinctive independent right choices out in the field, but it does tend to create a dog that is more inventive than one trained by being shown what to do and corrected if it gets it wrong.

 

So not ideal but probably a better crossover prospect than an intensively drilled Obedience dog.

 

And just so we're not misunderstanding each other, I'm not suggesting that a clicker trained dog should be allowed to indulge in a free for all where sheep are involved until it hits on what is needed.

[rushdoggie]

I don't work livestock so my opinion is just that, but I know my dogs are smart enough to deal with context and realize they are working agility when we start working with the equipment, formal obedience when we go to the obedience building, or stand with my left hand folded against my waist and or I start giving cues, and just walking to the park when we head out on his flat collar with a poop bag attached to the leash. I imagine he would figure out the context if livestock were introduced as well.

 

I would always laugh at the silly people who show in breed who decide that their dogs can't be allowed to sit, ever, for fear that they would sit in the ring. As if their dogs couldn't be easily taught to gait and stack in that context (they are allowed to ring treats and toys in the ring, after all!

[Root Beer]

I would always laugh at the silly people who show in breed who decide that their dogs can't be allowed to sit, ever, for fear that they would sit in the ring. As if their dogs couldn't be easily taught to gait and stack in that context (they are allowed to ring treats and toys in the ring, after all!

 

Or when people come into my classes from a conformation background and insist that their dogs cannot learn to lie down on their mats.

 

They never lie down - ever? Not even when they are relaxing at home? They sleep standing up? Really?

 

It may be more challenging to convince the dog that lying down is appropriate in a training context and the handler might have to work a little harder to figure out how to communicate that to the dog, but it is hardly the case that the dog is incapable of lying down because of his or her conformation training. Or of learning to lie down in a training context in a ring.

[bc soul sista]

Most people I know who choose another sport to do with there herding dog...chosse agility, because if they HAD to pick a sport agility is probably the most similar...as in it's more of an "action" sport....maybe people who cross train in agility and herding can speak up as I do not train for agility....but I think you use a little of the "pressure and release" you use in stockwork...and in agility even though you want the dog to pay attention to you to some degree...you also want them to be focused on the task at hand..

 

From what I've seen it's LESS likely for trainers/handlers..to cross train in other other sprots and herding...I train in competitive obedience and stockwork which I almost never see...because the training required in obedience kind of goes against what you are working for with stockwork other than the dogs willingness to work for you, obey commands...In obedience training I am wanting the dog to pay attention to me at all times, focused attention..coming UP INTO my pressure and being comfortable working there...especially for heeling which is a large portion of competitive obedience....AND consequently, I have struggled some with the dog that I compete with in obedience who also does herding in this way. Of course that could be a coincidence, and I'm sure varies from dog to dog. But because one of the sports I choose to train him in requires SUCH an intense focus on me he tends to come off his sheep alot and look to me to much while working stock. This was my first dog and did a TON of foundation obedience and attention work with him when he was a baby and growing up..before I started him on stock. so this might be the reason for it...also, being a brand new stockdog trainer/handler...we did alot of fetching/gathering and didn't work on exercises that would require a little more independence on his part, or driving the sheep away from me in where he needs to focus more on his sheepies....so this could be the reason also..

 

He absolutley knows the difference between the two...just like when we are on a hike he knows the difference between a formal recall and a non-formal recall..when we get to the training facility for obedience he is all hyped up, jazzed and energized to work..and at the barn..he is quite and focused as he gets out of the car, already in a crouch as we walk to the field..BUT like I said, the struggles we have in herding I think are directly related to the other sport we train in...at least somewhat...

 

If I were to get another pup to cross train in both those sports...I would ease up on some of the foundation work...at least the focused attention..would work on everything else..

[Maralynn]

Commonly we find that a dog that is used to being shown what to do will just stand there if unsure whereas a clicker trained dog should work through its current repertoire and then try new things to figure it out.

 

 

Yup - that sort of thing. If you train/drill in one context, then the dog will automatically start to respond that way - unsure = I'll do what's been drilled into me and see if that is correct. It's an automatic response.

 

If you train in a varied manner or dabble in different areas all along than the dog will understand that it's not all about the focus/standing/heeling it's about figuring things out.

 

That said, the one big difference I see between dog certain dog sports and stockwork (and even SAR to an extent) is that the dog is trained how to work on it's own vs constantly following handler cues. Are the dogs smart enough to figure it out? sure, but if you have a couple years of solely training "look at me and follow my cues" you're quite possibly going to have the trained handler focus mentality to overcome when working on something that is approached in a different manner.

 

If you train stockwork first, or work on it here and there along with other things I don't think it's a big deal.

[SS Cressa]

 

NADAC with the lower jump heights and flow he flattens out...

 

An important feature of NADAC is training in the ring, which is one reason of AKC folk came to NADAC as they can work on a problem in a trial enviroment

 

So we have not Qd often this year, although we often get first place ribbons!

 

 

I heard about being able to train in the ring. An interesting concept...

 

Isn't jumping flatter hard on their body? I mean I know it increases speed and in certain circumstances they need to do it but as a whole it isn't prefer. Maybe I am speaking in terms of AKC and USDAA?

 

And how in the world do you still place without Q'ing?

[SecretBC]

They are jumping lower and no, in most cases it is not going to be harder on their body. They land in a running stride and don't have as much force placed on their shoulders as when they jump higher & collected and land squarely on their front feet. Not to mention you don't deal with torque required from tight turns.

 

You place if you scored higher than the other people in your class who also didn't Q. The only class in NADAC that has no placements is Chances (it's pass or fail) -- Otherwise it is entirely possible to get a first place ribbon without Qing if nobody else in your height class Q'd, either.

 

Not that I care. I don't take placement ribbons after their first few trials. I only take Q ribbons and New Title ribbons. When you run that many classes per day or weekend, that adds up to a whole lot of ribbons.

[mum24dog]

They are jumping lower and no, in most cases it is not going to be harder on their body. They land in a running stride and don't have as much force placed on their shoulders as when they jump higher & collected and land squarely on their front feet.

 

 

Have you not come across this that contradicts that view as regards landing? It's been doing the rounds for a good few years now. Maybe that's what SSCressa has in mind.

 

http://www.sportdierenarts.mouwen.nl/index.php/sporthond/loads

 

I suppose if the jumps are so low that the dog is effectively running over them rather than jumping it might be OK but not agility as most of us know it in Europe. From some of the posts revealing what people want out of their competitions I think you'd all hate it here.

[Root Beer]

I suppose if the jumps are so low that the dog is effectively running over them rather than jumping it might be OK but not agility as most of us know it in Europe. From some of the posts revealing what people want out of their competitions I think you'd all hate it here.

 

It is different. Most of the sports differ between the US and Europe to some degree. Personally, I very much prefer the American versions of Musical Freestyle over the European versions, and I am grateful to be a Freestyler here. I appreciate some of the European routines (like Charlie Chaplin), but generally I like the American styles much better, especially the new Dogs Can Dance incarnation of the sport.

 

And based on what I've heard about Agility over there, I very much appreciate the wide variety of choices that we have in Agility over here when it comes to course style, jump height, etc. Also, the concept of progression being based on one's own accomplishment and meeting specific criteria at a given level, rather than that of everyone else, suits me much, much better.

 

I'm not saying that either is objectively better than the other. In fact, it is entirely a matter of personal preference.

 

But I can honestly say that I find that the American versions of both Freestyle and Agility are much more in line with what I personally want out of competitions.

 

Some of that may well have to do with the way one is first introduced to the concept of a particular sport, but I think a lot of it has to do with one's personal goals, and what is appropriate for one's dog, as well.

[Root Beer]

Not that I care. I don't take placement ribbons after their first few trials. I only take Q ribbons and New Title ribbons. When you run that many classes per day or weekend, that adds up to a whole lot of ribbons.

 

I love NQ placements. I have every single one of Maddie's NQ placement ribbons. I always joked that I was going to get one of those ribbon quilts made out of her NQ placements when she retired, so whenever we NQ'ed and placed, I would say, "Here's another one for the NQ quilt"!! (For those who aren't familiar with them, a ribbon quilt is more of a wall hanging, not something one would use as a blanket)

 

But now I don't know that I am going to do that. I'm not sure what I am going to do with them, but I am very, very glad that I have them. I have all of her Q placements, and Q ribbons, and title ribbons, too, of course. If I get a quilt made, I will probably have them all put together to make one big one, after all.

[alligande]

I heard about being able to train in the ring.

 

And how in the world do you still place without Q'ing?

 

Very easy to do in novice, where you have a lot of inexperienced dogs and handlers. I also have first place ribbons in USDAA. I also usually only take the place ribbon with a Q but on a day where we have Ed due to training I am taking that first place ribbon in jumpers, if the only mistake was one bar have to have something to bring home to my husband.

 

When I describe him as flattening out, he still has a great natural jumping style but he is a big leggy dog and it is just easier not having to lift as high, which has actually led to him getting a little lazy so we are back to training at a higher jump height, as he has started knocking bars something he never did when we started out.