What would you do?

[MrSnappy]

What I'm trying to say here is that it is conceivable that other people will assume that your dog is safe/friendly simply because you are walking it off leash in an area where you are likely to meet other off leash dogs. If this isn't actually the case, then either don't walk your dog there, or keep it leashed. I think you did the right thing by apologizing and paying the vet bill. Don't let it happen again.

 

I think the point some of you are missing is that Orbit actually is a very friendly dog. He's very social. He's just not keen on being bugged when he's playing. I don't think that's abnormal at all. None of my dogs appreciate being chased down, grabbed, barked at or mounted when they're trying to play ball, and will snark at other dogs to leave them be. I doubt I have half a dozen abnormal dogs either. Why do other people think it's okay for their dogs to do those things, and not okay for the dog being molested to defend itself?

 

A couple years I was playing ball with my dogs in an off leash area and a woman loosed her idiot dog who jumped on Piper (in play surely) who was running for her ball. Piper got knocked down and flipped on her back, and the caribiner on the other dog's collar hit her in the face and snapped one of her front teeth clean in half, vertically. Two surgeries later, all the festering fragments were finally removed. I'd much rather she had turned and ripped the damn dog's ear off and saved my wallet and her teeth.

 

Inter River is a very large, dog friendly, off leash dog park. It's not *unreasonable* for people to think they should be allowed to let their dogs play ball unmolested in the open areas, since that's where the District mandates that off leash activities are allowed to take place, and since the folks who are walking their dogs can quite easily stick to the paths and leave the fetching dogs to their own games. It's overwhelmingly easy to skirt those areas. But they routinely do NOT and seem to think it's adorable when their 60lb labrador runs down, runs over or slams into my 30 lb border collie. But it's not adorable when my border collie snaps at the dog to leave her alone. I find this logic very strange.

 

Again, however, having said this, Orbit's owner cannot control the actions of other dogs. Therefore, it is her responsibility to put the toy up when she sees another dog coming. I think this lesson has been well learned. I just think it's ridiculous that where a city decrees that off leash activities only happen in designated areas, dogs cannot engage in those activities without being harassed by other dogs. Standing behind a dog engaged in another activity and barking in its ear is just rude, and that dog will undoubtedly be bitten again, because the owner of the cattle dog is failing to control his dog as well.

 

RDM

[Lewis Moon]

Speaking from the other end of the spectrum; Cerb is an incredibly submissive dog and won't even fight back. Last night while walking him to the ball field he got rushed and bowled over by an agressive dog and proceeded to roll over in the puppy "don't kill me" pose. However, the other dog wouldn't quit and started snapping at his neck. (he's OK)

It's my job as "alpha" to protect him and I failed. Like some country rube visiting the big city, Cerb believes that EVERY dog wants to play with him, up to the point where he gets rolled. You can almost see the disbelief in his eyes.

 

I always keep the lead handy when I'm walking in "congested" areas. I may not have to be apologize or pay vet bills, but I don't want Cerb to get hurt because of my inattention.

[Jeri Jessee]

I hate the fact that I cannot even go to PetSmart in my town without some idiot letting their dog (on a leash) come over and approach my dog uninvited. That makes ME want to snap somebody.

[rufftie]

regarding petsmart- and i may be in the wrong-if you bring your dog into a store, where you know there are going to be people and dogs, some of them distracted by shopping, your dog better be able to handle meeting another dog on a leash. otherwise, leave the dog in the car. i don't generally let me dog go meeting others univited but there are some expectations in public places like pet stores, dog parks, etc. of basic friendliness. twitch can go everywhere and meet everyone, so he went to a christmas party last night which included people and dogs. nova had to stay in the car because she doesn't like all dogs, especially when she's on a leash.

[Liz P]

I have on many occasions slipped a lead over an obnoxious dogs' head, walked it back to the owners and let them know their dog is being rude and will get bit if it continues mounting/body slamming/biting/etc my dog. I also had no problem body blocking a dog that is headed for a collision with mine. I feel I owe it to my dogs to protect them.

 

I used to have a BC who hated all large sable dogs after an Akita ripped his shoulder up. While walking off lead he would bark and rush at them unless he was close to me. If I saw a dog like that coming I would call my BC back and have him heel next to me. I did the same when going around a blind turn so we didn't suddenly encounter a scary dog. The management worked just fine.

 

There is a huge difference between knowing a dog may react to being annoyed (every dog has a breaking point!) and being proactive in managing a situation vs just waiting for something to happen.

[beachdogz]

I am now used to being the "odd guy" when it comes to this discussion in our area. I do not appreciate anyone's dog approaching my dog or me - on or off leash - without asking if it's ok. While I agree that it is probably the responsibility of the OP to pay the vet bill and apologize, I still feel there is some responsibility on the part of the owner who let his dog off lead to run to another dog. These are animals. And I've many times over the years seen two dogs in classes that were both non-aggressive dogs - but somebody got in somebody's face or somebody looked at the other the wrong way - and boom! there's a dog fight.

 

I know people love dog parks...but I don't like them. Even the best tempered dogs can and will fight. When I took my first BC to an obedience class, people either thought she was aggressive or that I was a snob when I constantly turned down their request for our dogs to "meet and greet" and/or "play". I simply said, "no thanks, we're here at class to work, not socialize." She is usually fine with other dogs, but I don't know how the other dog is going to be or if they will get along. I guess to each his own. I'm not saying it's wrong to allow your dog to socialize...I'm just saying not everyone wants to participate in that. That's why my dogs are on lead when we are out in public.

 

And to me, having your friend come over with her dogs and play with yours (both of you knowing that the dogs get along) is way different than allowing your dog to play with unknown dogs of unknown temperament.

 

I am wondering if the OP's dog was on lead at the time and the other dog approached, would the responsibility of who's responsible shift?

[G. Festerling]

You are not the odd guy actually.

 

RDM I do agree. Not knowing Orbit, I never got the impression that he did anything horrible. Neither did his owner. But I suppose now I am repeating myself.

[puppytoes]

Thank you RDM for explaining my dog and the situation better than i apprently did. Orbit is indeed a "friendly" dog. He has no issues being approached by dogs either on or off-leash. The situation becomes a bit muddy when he deems himself to be working. This can be swimming or running to get a ball or waiting for me to do something with a toy etc. This is when he gets annoyed and tells other dogs off. Given this, we do not play with toys in congested areas, he is simply too much of a magnet for other dogs. This particular situation was a bit unusual. My kid picked up a stick, Orbit became interested and this set the dog off and it started barking. The owner and i as well as both dogs were within about 10 feet of one another. Orbit would have been fine with the barking had the cattle dog not started to move into the space around his shoulder/head area. This is when he turned around and snapped. Obviously i would have intervened had i thought that the situation would end up as it did. I have struggled with the issue of is it a correction or an over-reaction since Orbit was a puppy. Given that the dogs that he has told off in the past rarely seem phased by his response, i figured it must be an appropriate one (the owners have also never given me attitude). But the lesson learned here is that it doesn't really matter if it is a correction or an over-reaction, things can go very wrong very quickly.

 

I wonder whether dog cutlure and even dog behaviour/socialisation varies across our continent. Like some have mentioned, to me all dogs in a designated off leash area should be friendly and safe for others dogs to approach (in a normal manner). It would never occur to me to check with the other owner. I live in a very urban environment and i believe that almost by necessity and reality (there are dogs everywhere) dogs are generally quite friendly (perhaps too much so sometimes). Now a dog on a leash is a different story. I would never allow my dog to approach another dog if the other dog is leashed up and he is not. I would assume that the other dog was on a leash for a reason. If both dogs are on a leash, then i am watching the other dog for signs of discomfort before we walk by (i have crossed the street to avoind a dog that seemed nervous/anxious about our approach).

 

I have also noticed that there seems to be a difference in demeaner between what appear to be working type breeds and breeds that are popular and bred overwhelmingly for the pet market. Now i am not sure of Orbit's pedigree but i adopted him from a shelter in rural idaho where i imagine there is not a huge market for pet border collies. My guess is that he was either an oops farm puppy or one that did not show much herding potential. We run into a few Vislas, Flat coated retrievers, Weimeraners and even some Aussies (no the fluffy kind) that have the same reserved and focused demeaner in that they say hello and go on their way (this is strictly my personal experience). Contrast that with most Labs and nearly all doodles. I have wondered whether breeding for pet characteristics as opposed for some original function has somehow, over time, not only made these dogs friendlier but somehow diminished their ability to interpret basic canine body language and engage in appropriate canine behaviour.

[mbc1963]

I have wondered whether breeding for pet characteristics as opposed for some original function has somehow, over time, not only made these dogs friendlier but somehow diminished their ability to interpret basic canine body language and engage in appropriate canine behaviour.

 

 

Interesting notion! Many BCs have difficulty with goldens and labs and doodles... mine included. (Buddy's worst nightmare is a 12-month-old "friendly" lab charging at him. He'll correct, and the dumb dog will return over and over for more corrections. Aiiee!)

 

It would make sense that "friendliness" toward humans (read: willingness to approach all without inhibition) might be linked to social cluelessness in general.

 

Mary

[Alchemist]

I've debated the topic of "why do many Border collies seem to dislike other dogs" with a friend (an Open handler, with tons of experience with Border collies). I was suggesting that perhaps it's Border collie's tendency to stare - other dogs view this with hostility. Their body language displays it, and then the Border collies are cuing off of that. (To them staring is perfectly normal).

 

Her view is that no, it's that Border collies read body language so much better than other breeds of dogs, and get irritated at the idiocy of some breeds not cueing in on their signals.

 

Perhaps there's an element of truth in both views.

[Star]

I've debated the topic of "why do many Border collies seem to dislike other dogs" with a friend (an Open handler, with tons of experience with Border collies). I was suggesting that perhaps it's Border collie's tendency to stare - other dogs view this with hostility. Their body language displays it, and then the Border collies are cuing off of that. (To them staring is perfectly normal).

 

Her view is that no, it's that Border collies read body language so much better than other breeds of dogs, and get irritated at the idiocy of some breeds not cueing in on their signals.

 

Perhaps there's an element of truth in both views.

This is an interesting thought to me, too. I've always thought Star was not a "normal" dog. In fact, I really believe that if it weren't for Seven she would have no clue how to behave like most dogs do. She doesn't sniff things on walks, she can't ever decide if she should bark at the person walkign behind our property and always looks to Seven first (responding however Seven responds), stuff like that. She is not necessarily "anti social", but she would just prefer all strange dogs leave her alone. I sometimes wonder if she actually doesn't recognize a dog as being the same thing she is. I don't really have a logical basis for this, just an intuition. Another reason could be that border collies are so rules oriented. It's occurred to me the last couple days how she simply follows the rules and routines and you don't even have to tell her. Seven (stubborn hound) still considers if it's something she'd like to do. For example, if there's a towel on the floor at the back door, Star comes in a sits right down, waiting to have her feet wiped. Don't even have to tell her. If we're going for a walk, she goes to the garage door and sits, waiting for her harness. Don't have to tell her. If anything seems out of order in the yard or house (not where it's supposed to be), she'll alert on it. So perhaps it's just that they believe that these other dogs are not following the rules.

[simba]

Interesting notion! Many BCs have difficulty with goldens and labs and doodles... mine included. (Buddy's worst nightmare is a 12-month-old "friendly" lab charging at him. He'll correct, and the dumb dog will return over and over for more corrections. Aiiee!)

 

It would make sense that "friendliness" toward humans (read: willingness to approach all without inhibition) might be linked to social cluelessness in general.

 

Mary

 

It's not just BCs. Everyone has a problem with labs. Terriers, mixes, bull breeds...

 

Just about everyone except for other labs. Something about the incredible pain tolerance, indiscriminate 'friendliness' and love of high-speed contact does that.