What would you do?

[puppytoes]

So yesterday I was walking Orbit in the forest. It is a great off-leash place so there tend to be a good amount of dogs/people there on weekends. Most of the walk is through the forest but there are a couple of clearings and many people stop there to play ball with their dogs. Orbit is the type of border collie that does not appreciate it when other dogs bother him when he is busy. He will snarl if the other dog approaches him head on but if the dog comes up from behind, he will turn around and snap - he has done this since he was 3 months old and i have not been able to change this behaviour. Needless to say, we do not play ball there. But as we were passing through, my toddler picked up a stick and Orbit thought that he might throw it and became quite focused. At some point a cattle dog joined the queue and started to bark behind Orbit (another one of his pet peeves). The barking went on for about 15 seconds at which point the cattle dog must have come up too close to Orbit's neck because he turned around and snapped at her. The whole situation lasted about a second and has happened numerous times before - without incident. In fact, i have often wondered whether he even connects with the other dog and if yes, then how much. Well this time, we start walking with the guy and his dog and we look down and she is bleeding from the ear. Her ear is literally torn almost an inch through. She doesn't seem to be bothered too much but it is bleeding pretty good. What do you do? Thoughts?

 

Do you appologize and walk away?

Do you offer to pay?

[mbc1963]

What do you do? Thoughts?

 

Do you appologize and walk away?

Do you offer to pay?

 

I've paid twice to have other people's dogs go through antibiotics because my reactive dog snapped at them and drew blood. Both times, I had let my dog off leash because he seemed like he was being friendly to this particular dog... and so I figured it was my responsibility. And I learned my lesson: Buddy just doesn't get off-leash unless we have a long-established pattern of friendship with the other dog. He's too reactive, and gets nervous at sudden moves, and snaps to drive the other dog away. Even if it only happens once every 20 meets, I don't want it to happen, period.

 

However, one winter I got "mugged" by two big, off-leash dogs when Buddy was on-leash. I actually fell down on the ice into the dog-fight that erupted when one dog lunged at us. I got up OK and the stupid people got their dog... and I went to leave. I saw the stupid person hauling her dog back to her car, quickly - and figured she must have found blood on him somewhere. I figured, in that case, she deserved what she got, and hoped she learned her lesson.

 

I figure that if I should have seen it coming and should have known better, it's my responsibility. But if my dog is on-leash and I give fair warning (or I get mugged by uncontrolled dogs), it's the other person's responsibility. (Lucky for me, Buddy is incredibly predictable in his reactivity, and I can completely avoid the stimulus that causes it, if I just pay attention.)

 

There's also the delicate balance of "will you see this person again?" The local dog owners in my neighborhood know each other well... and if I were perceived as an irresponsible dog-owner, I'd get a reputation. To me, it's worth the $75 to be seen as someone who does the right thing.

 

I know how awful it feels, but I think an ear-gash is an incredibly common thing. I got home from a walk with Buddy once only to find his ear pierced through by another dog in a tussle. It was scabbed over by then, and I didn't take him to the vet, and he was fine. (Thanks, forum members, for reassuring me that night. Saved me the cost of the antibiotics and all.)

 

So... what did YOU do? I'm curious.

 

Mary

[Bullet87]

I'd like to be brutally honest here. If you know your dog is aggressive towards others when playing why are you still walking him were other dogs run loose playing? I mean if you were walking him on a leash so other dogs did not bother him as much, fine, but letting him run loose when you know there is the option that your dog may bite another dog is just irresponsible in my opinion. If your dog bit my dog and caused any sort of injury you bet your bottom dollar I'd be upset with you and you would be footing the vet bill. You are just asking for a dangerous confrontation between your dog and another by constantly setting your dog in that situation. Seems to me you are just setting your dog up for failure.

[Laura L]

You do the right thing, apologize and offer to pay the vet bill. If it happened the other way around and it was your dog on the receiving end isn't that what you would like?

 

I have to agree with Mary & Bullet 87. If you know your dog is like this, don't keep putting him in this kind of situation. You may not get off so easily the next time.

Laura

[PSmitty]

It does sound like an avoidable situation, but it also sounds like it happened really fast, and Lord knows, we all are guilty of not reacting fast enough at times. As reactive dog owners (and yes, I am one), we have to work a lot harder to keep them and other dogs safe. To me, the cattle dog sounds like it was being rude and obnoxious, so Orbit reacted strongly. Like Mary said, ear gashes are common and though they bleed a lot, not usually serious. Mine have torn theirs playing. Anyway, if it were me, even though I feel his dog was partly to blame by it's behavior, I would have apologized and offered to pay if the owner wanted to take the dog to the vet.

[Maralynn]

If your dog is on leash and the other dog is out of control, it's the other owners issue.

 

If you know your dog has issues and is off leash, it's your issue and you should apologize/offer to pay

 

If you know there are things that set your dog off, you need to actively avoid those situation and step in when other dogs get too close. ie, when the other dog starts coming over, collect your dog, put the stick down and move along.

 

Things happen, but as the owner of a reactive dog, I need to do everything in my power to prevent something from happening

[Liz P]

I don't walk my reactive dog in public. It's not worth the risk. When I used to live in a more urban area and didn't have a choice (he had to be walked for potty breaks), he was always on a leash and I was always on the alert to try to put space between us and the other dogs. On the one occasion when an idiot cornered us with his American bulldog, wanting the dogs to meet (while mine was screaming, barking and lunging!), I told him that my dog would bite his and to go away. Had my dog bitten, I would NOT have paid.

 

However, if I had taken my known reactive dog to a dog park and he bit another dog, I would assume responsibility.

[juliepoudrier]

Apologize and offer to pay, definitely.

 

I don't have reactive dogs, but when I used to take them to the beach near where I worked, I'd always leash them as I was getting ready to leave. I don't know how many times some moron would let their dog run up to mind and behave as if it had no manners. In such a case, if one of my dogs had bit the offending dog, I would not feel in the least that I owed an apology, let alone an offer to pay the vet bill, but I think in cases where dogs are running lose in a public area one needs to do the thing that will defuse the situation.

 

It's possible that if your toddler hadn't picked up the stick, none of this would have happened, and I guess if there's a lesson learned beyond it being your responsibility if you take a dog reactive dog into public spaces where dogs are likely to approach, it's that you'll need to be aware of anything you or your child might do to *attract* other dogs.

 

If walking in this area is important to you, it might make sense to get your dog used to a basket muzzle so you can continue to enjoy your walks without worrying about another dog getting hurt. An added bonus is that clueless dog owners might see a dog with a muzzle and actually prevent their dogs from going over to yours.

 

J.

[Love my BCs]

Apologize, pay and avoid having your dog in a similar situation going forward.

 

I have a reactive dog too and learned my lesson after paying for a vet trip for a dog he snapped at that left blood and a wound that needed a couple of stitches. That was when he was about 6, he is 13 now and we don't go to dog parks or other areas with a lot of off leash dogs.

 

The basket muzzle would give folks the idea to keep their dogs away. Sometimes I've had off leash dogs running up to mine where the owners say "Oh, my dog is friendly" while never thinking about the dogs they are approaching.

 

Good luck!

[Alchemist]

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that this is the first time that Orbit has connected with another dog. All prior encounters seem to have been more in the lines of a correction (with no contact) that one dog might give another. Sure, a growl would be reason to start watching carefully, but it wouldn't have given me cause, necessarily, to label a dog as "dog aggressive".

 

From this point onward, though, forewarned is clearly forearmed. What you do from here probably depends on how well you feel you can control your dog. A basket muzzle, as others have suggested, would certainly work. But, if your dog isn't overly dog aggressive (just doesn't care for other dogs in his face when there's serious work at hand, like playing "fetch"), it's possible that a less draconian solution would also suit. You might be able to manage the situation by calling him off the game, maybe putting him in a sit/stay when another dog approaches. You might need to be proactive in body blocking other dogs' approach. Without seeing your dog, I couldn't know how effective such a "management" option might be. I did find this worked well when there was a dog that Duncan really disliked who was constantly in his face when both dogs were off-leash.

 

As other have said, offering to pay for any vet bills is always the best policy if your dog is off-leash and bites another dog.

 

As an aside: I know people with Border collies that are perfectly friendly to other dogs who routinely answer "No!" when asked the question "Is s/he friendly toward other dogs?" It does forestall a lot of potential conflicts...

[Dex BC]

My BC is always uncomfortable with offleash dogs. I`m not sure if he would snap but I don`t want to find out so I always keep him on his leash in places were we are likely to encounter other dogs. Your BC does not sound unusal....most prefer socailizing with othe dogs on their own terms and at their own pace.

 

What I`ve found works for me to prevent a situtation from developing is I always keep a look out for off leash dogs down the trail or path and stop with Dexter and make him sit. Usually the other owners get the hint and leash their dogs before approaching. When passing other dogs (on leash) i always move to the side and shorten his leash to let others know that my dog may not react well. If an offleash dog does approach in an obnoxious or over exuberant manner I try to get in between and focus the other dogs attention on me (play with me instead) until Dex is more comfortabe and I can assess if they will interact OK. I also never allow another dog to corner him or get behind him as he gets very nervous.

[Rave]

The barking went on for about 15 seconds

 

Which is plenty of time to have stepped in and stopped the biting before it happened. But really, it shouldn't have even gotten that far. When you saw your dog in his reactive mode with another dog approaching, you should have stopped the situation from escalating at that point. Remove the stick, leash your dog, warn the other dog's owner, leave the area quickly but calmly.

 

It sounds like you've been lucky so far so have a false sense of security about your dog's issues. If you have a reactive dog (and you do), it is 100% YOUR responsibility to warn other dog owners if their dog is approaching yours, especially if their dog will trigger your dog.

 

It is very possible to manage an "issues" dog around other dogs, but it takes an owner willing to manage their dog, not ignore the problems because you don't know what to do. There are plenty of good dog trainers who can help you learn how to manage your dog so that you can safely bring him to parks. I highly recommend you find a Control Unleashed class or at least read the book.

 

So yes, you need to pay the vet bills because you had knowledge of your dog's issues and allowed the altercation to take place.

 

You know your dog's triggers. Use that information and stop this from happening again. Because next time it might not be an ear.

[waffles]

I would have called my dog, leashed him or had him in a down/stay. I would have made sure the other dog did not approach my dog and waited for the dogs owner to come get their dog. I have personally grabbed dogs by their collar and walked them back to their owners.

I find it rude when other people allow their dogs to run up to my dog off leash. It does not matter whether or not my dog is on leash or not, I would never allow him to run up to another dog. People should ask first if it is okay to let their dog approach but unfortunately most people allow their dog to run full speed (while the owner is of course yelling the dogs name 10x, or shouting 'he's friendly') at a strangers dog.

 

The best thing to do is avoid the situation. Either get a good recall and down/stay on your dog, keep your dog on a leash, or use a basket muzzle. Other peoples ignorance can cost you $ and ultimately now you know better.

 

Oh, if I were you I would have apologized and offered to pay vet fees if the owner felt it necessary to see one. In the end it was rude of the owner to allow their dog to bark like that, but you know your dog and should have avoided the situation all together.

[red russel]

just to be sure... let me repeat what has been said...

 

you have a reactive dog. you know it. you have seen the behavior before. 15 seconds is a long time especially since you should be anticipating the situation. irresponsible on your part.

 

apologize, pay, apologize again, and keep your dog on a leash.

 

keep in mind with your dog on a leash the reactivity could actually escalate. you will really need to be your dog's advocate and intercede before anything happens. training with an individual that has experience and skills with reactive dogs can really help.

 

dave

[puppytoes]

Thank you all for your input. I am glad to know that I did what most of you would have done. I appologized profusely and i am paying the vet bill (to the tune of $550 for stitches that may or may not take - I guess ear tears are pretty common and fairly resistant to stitches). Before we realised that his dogs ear was torn, the other owner was actually saying that his dog was a bit herdy and that other dogs did not always appreciate it. He was not at all concerned about Orbit's reaction.

 

I was quite surprised by the damage. Like I said before, Orbit has reacted similarily in the past but I was never too concerned for 2 reasons. Firstly, the dog owners never seemed surprised and usually responded along the lines of great, my dog needs to be put it his/her place or my dog gets that a lot because he/she is annoying. And secondly, I was never quite sure how much contact there was between Orbit and the other dog.

 

Clearly, I need to be more vigilant now. Even though we were in the forest, we probably encountered 50 or 60 dogs on our hour long hike. I would say Orbit reacts to one dog out of 1000. The reaction from many of you is that my dog is dangerous and needs to be restrained. I may be naive but i disagree. This is a dog that spends almost all of his time off-leash and among other dogs. It is true that he is no Lab. He does not go out of his way to engage other dogs but nor does go out of his way to avoid them. They either pass each other by or there is a sniff and then he moves on. So I am reluctant to start leashing him around other dogs (he would always be on a leash as we live in a very urban environment) or having him wear a muzzle. I clearly need to be more pro-active in situations where i know he could react, given that he has now clearly made contact with another dog and that should be easy to do. He is a very responsive dog - he will call of mid run when chasing a squirrel. Incidently, I have read Control Unleashed and Orbit has no difficulty focusing or responding to me even when other dogs are around. This was clearly me not realising that a situation that had never become any kind of situation (I can honestly say that I have never had a dog owner get mad about a reaction from Orbit - most have viewed it as a correction of their dogs annoying/inappropriate behaviour) is a situation that needs to be avoided every time.

 

What I find interesting is that this reactivity has been present in Orbit since I adopted him as a 3 month old pup. Initially I found the behaviour really worrisome because I never wanted a dog that could not be trusted around others. I posted several times about my concerns and was overwhelmingly told that it was puppy behaviour, that other dogs would put him in his place (that never happened), that border collies are like that - they don't tolerate inappropriate behaviour from other dogs. Over time, I kind of chilled out and relaxed because honestly, I don't think I have ever had someone get mad about Orbit's reaction (now clearly if he was a pit bull it would be a whole different story from their point of view). So I guess I am wondering what i should have done differently with him when he was younger.

[Maralynn]

Like I said before, Orbit has reacted similarily in the past but I was never too concerned for 2 reasons. Firstly, the dog owners never seemed surprised and usually responded along the lines of great, my dog needs to be put it his/her place or my dog gets that a lot because he/she is annoying. And secondly, I was never quite sure how much contact there was between Orbit and the other dog.

 

But here's the thing - he shouldn't be placed in a situation where he feels like he needs to correct random dogs. It's obviously stressful to him and if it happens to be the wrong dog you could have a major fight with serious injuries.

 

If a dog needs to be corrected at that stage in the game, the owners need to do the correcting (actually it sounds like they need to train in the first place)- not a random dog that is annoyed.

 

 

The reaction from many of you is that my dog is dangerous and needs to be restrained. I may be naive but i disagree.

 

Just because you've never had an issue doesn't mean that the potential isn't there. It just takes once. He snaps at the wrong dog, you have a major fight which could be even worse if your child got caught in the middle somehow.

 

Bottom line is you need to come up with a game plan to keep your dog from getting annoyed at dogs around him. Leash, proactive intervention, muzzle, just something that is going to keep him comfortable and safe.

[MrSnappy]

Well, having met Orbit (and I'm not just playing someone who has on the internetz) I would say that he's a pretty normal border collie, quite social and like most border collies, probably gets his fair share of abuse from other dogs who get all riled up by his intensity and whose owners can't (or won't) call them off of Orbit. My dogs have snapped at many a dog who get up all in their grill when they're trying to mind their own business and play ball, and I really don't think this is two steps away from euthanizing them. Sorry to dissent from popular opinion.

 

Having said that, I won't play ball/fetch with my dogs at Bridgeman/Inter River anymore because I'm not interested in having my dogs harassed and therefore tangling with another dog. And since I work for Animal Control in the DNV, I am also going to suggest that Orbit not be allowed to either. We'll deem your dog faster than you can believe, and the owner of a dog he nails in the DNV will happily sue you even faster than we can deem your dog. Very litigious community. Just sayin'.

 

From now on, walks at Inter River should be walks, no toys along. Step in and remove sticks from daughter before situations can escalate. Just be a bit more proactive, and Orbit will be fine. He's quite a nice dog, really.

 

RDM

[mbc1963]

It is normal behavior for a dog to "air snap" at another dog who is all up in his face. It's basically a dog's way of saying, "Back off, dude," but since dogs don't have hands, they use a face/mouth display to give a "push." There's a world of difference between doing that (and occasionally making contact, as is bound to happen with ears and noses protruding out) and attacking another dog. My dog will try to push another dog back, but as soon as he has 18 inches or so of air space, stops his display. He will never willingly engage a dog he's afraid of; in fact, he will walk off to the side of the path and act extremely interested in sniffing the underbrush to avoid any engagement.

 

I'm guessing that most dog owners have found themselves in a situation where one dog snapped at another dog. Most of the time, there's no blood. To imply that any dog who might snap at another dog needs to wear a basket muzzle is to over-generalize - every dog would be wearing one. So, I think it's fair to say that Orbit, while on the reactive side of the scale, isn't a vicious dog or even an aggressive one.

 

Leashing a dog works great most of the time - but when I'm leash-walking Buddy, there's a regular and predictable chance that a stupid dog-owner will let his "friendly" dog come charging at me. My favorite was the Doberman owner who, after I pulled a snarling Buddy to the middle of a big, grassy field and had him do a "lie down" to avoid the big dog who was causing him to react, unleashed the Dobie to allow him to trot at Buddy. While calling, "My dog is FRIENDLY." When I replied, "Mine is NOT," she said, "Well my dog isn't going to DO anything." Great. That's very helpful when I'm in the middle of a fight between your 100-lb dog and my dog, who's connected to me by a leash.

 

I protect Buddy from these situations when I can. I call out, "My dog's not friendly," and I take him off the path to give him space... or, if the other dog is interested in treats, I'll actually hold that dog's collar until the owners can come. (Buddy will not react if the other dog isn't too close.)

 

But, I have to say, it is absolutely NOT my job to manage my dog so well on leash that no other dog ever approaches him or annoys him. We have a leash law in my town, and my dog is visibly leashed in the presence of any other humans. (In the woods, he runs free - his recall is rock-solid.) If some other idiot allows their dog to charge freely at leashed dogs, then the charging dog is going to get snapped at some time. That is horrendous doggie manners, and adult dogs know that, and will scold the way dogs scold. Sometimes, they'll make contact (just like little kids in a tussle can dole out a black eye or bloody nose), but that doesn't mean they're vicious.

 

I learned with Buddy to tell myself, "You don't have a different dog because you saw him react like that. You just have a better understanding of the dog he always was." You live and you learn. And with a reactive dog, you manage as best you can, and you learn that you can't control the world. The world sometimes needs to take responsibility for itself.

 

Orbit's owner took a lesson about her dog, here, and will do the best she can - but I don't think she needs to beat herself up for not knowing previously what Orbit hadn't shown her.

[G. Festerling]

I have to admit, i tend to lean more towards the idea that dogs will be dogs and at times, stuff happens.

Now BY NO MEANS am I implying that the dog handler has no responsibility. To me they have ALL the responsibility.

Also, let me say at this point that I do not have the need, nor the desire to put my dogs in a situation where there are other dogs that are off lead.

It also seems to me that if you take your dog to a place where most dogs are off lead, both parties assume SOME responsibility.

 

My girl that I have taken to classes and trial is a very friendly and quite laid back type of dog. But she would rather not be crowded. No more than she will ever crowd another one. She will give another dog exactly long enough to get a bearing and if they don't back off then, she will tell them off. She will spin around and make an ugly face. At that point it is done. At no point has it gone any further than that with her also because I won't give another dog enough time to take offense to her.

 

Ears are a funny thing. They just happen to be the first thing sticking out of the head and they do move. I have had dogs just simply playing accidentally gotten bit on the tip of the ears. They also heal very well. Plus, I don't believe one bit that dogs don't make mistakes when they snap to correct a dog in doggy language! I am sure they have accidents too.

 

I would still apologize as well as offer to pay some towards the bill. BUT, who says the other owner did not know about his dogs "history" of wanting to go up to other dogs and join into play? At that point he has the responsibility to also understand that that is most often not the best thing. And if Orbit is a dog like my girl, then I would have a hard time putting all the blame on her. Because she never connected. And that is a history of sorts as well.

 

As much as I feel, know, believe that I know my guys, I also acknowledge that they are a living, breathing being that is not 100% predictable at all times. Nor do I want it that way. I put in training to predict as much as I can, certainly.

I also know that we are all guilty of being blind to some extend to some of our dogs habits, quirks or kinks. It is always good to stay on alert and consider that others may have valuable input. But I also know that there are tons of owners out there who know their dogs very, very well and do the best for them possible.

[PSmitty]

Great post (#18), Mary. I agree totally.

 

And $550 for the vet bill? Ouch!

[Frogs & Dogs]

People walk dogs off leash in forested areas around here all the time. I'm no exception. The unwritten rules go something like this: When approaching someone with a dog, take notice of whether that dog is on or off leash. If it's off, it's generally assumed to be friendly, or at least safe to approach. If it's on leash or the owner is in the act of leashing it, it's generally assumed to be reactive, aggressive, and/or not safe to approach. In this case, you should leash your dog, or at least keep it close by voice command. I generally holler at owners of off leash dogs, just to double check before allowing the approach, but not all owners take this extra step.

 

What I'm trying to say here is that it is conceivable that other people will assume that your dog is safe/friendly simply because you are walking it off leash in an area where you are likely to meet other off leash dogs. If this isn't actually the case, then either don't walk your dog there, or keep it leashed. I think you did the right thing by apologizing and paying the vet bill. Don't let it happen again.

[G. Festerling]

Just thinking here...but on the flipside, I am a bit confused about this seemingly overwhelming need for folks to LET their dogs (no matter how friendly) just walk up to others. Sure, play dates with known dogs or groups fine.

Communication with another dog owner before hand is a must for me. And if I can't stop my off lead dog from approaching another dog, it should not be off lead either. If I am too busy minding my dog, another, should not be off lead either.

Not to imply that a dog should not be socialized to the most possible degree, it is a must wherever possible.

To me it is a bit of an issue of respect for personal space. Mine as well as others.

[simba]

Just thinking here...but on the flipside, I am a bit confused about this seemingly overwhelming need for folks to LET their dogs (no matter how friendly) just walk up to others. Sure, play dates with known dogs or groups fine.

 

To me it is a bit of an issue of respect for personal space. Mine as well as others.

 

I was thinking that as well. A 'reactive dog' in this instance is a dog who overreacts to another dog's inappropriate behaviour rather than behaving inappropriately itself.

 

I suppose you're never going to fix the idiots ("My dog is friendly!" as it bites my ankles- no joke) so all you can do is bombproof your dog as much as possible to tolerate other dogs' rude behaviours.

[terrecar]

I protect Buddy from these situations when I can. I call out, "My dog's not friendly," and I take him off the path to give him space... or, if the other dog is interested in treats, I'll actually hold that dog's collar until the owners can come. (Buddy will not react if the other dog isn't too close.)

 

 

 

I also think #18 is a very good post. I have a basket muzzle for Hannah just because I want her fitted with a comfortable and secure muzzle if she ever needs one. I've seen ill fitting muzzles used on dogs and they appear to be very uncomfortable.

 

However, if I were to use a basket muzzle for the scenario described, I would make damned sure I wasn't putting my dog in a situation where she might be attacked and unable to defend herself. In other words, my responsibility to protect her increases exponentially with the introduction of a muzzle.

 

There are more than a few bully and mastiff breeds in my county, and just as many poor owners. No offence to those breeds; they can be great in the right hands. But when they're pretty much considered testosterone on a leash by some owners, I don't think socializing the dog is at the top of their list.

 

My point is that, as the poster said above, I protect my dog from situations when I can. It is just as important for me to protect my own dog as it is to protect other dogs from mine.

[PSmitty]

Just thinking here...but on the flipside, I am a bit confused about this seemingly overwhelming need for folks to LET their dogs (no matter how friendly) just walk up to others. Sure, play dates with known dogs or groups fine.

Communication with another dog owner before hand is a must for me. And if I can't stop my off lead dog from approaching another dog, it should not be off lead either. If I am too busy minding my dog, another, should not be off lead either.

Not to imply that a dog should not be socialized to the most possible degree, it is a must wherever possible.

To me it is a bit of an issue of respect for personal space. Mine as well as others.

 

Totally agree with this!