When to start Trailing Novice

[juliepoudrier]

Well that's my point Pam; unless someone has a great mentor, it's likely they don't know *how* to train for open and telling them to do so is rather unhelpful. But whatever.

 

J.

[Smalahundur]

I am with Julie on this one.

I am an utter novice, and hope to be able to trial with my first dog next fall.

So I should train for "Open". Right. I have seen open trials and yes that is the goal somewhere in the future.

But looking at that level of training and make it my next training goal would be a bit overwhelming to say the least.

Baby steps, at the moment I am thrilled to see my dog make a nice wide outrun of about 30 meters and not run me over with the sheep at top speed while fetching them.

We just found out that it is possible to stay behind the sheep while wearing, and there is a beginning of driving.

I am in no position to worry about the "international shed", nor do I have to for this first trial.

So by the time that outrun is over about 100 meters and looking good, and I can drive my sheep over the field through a gate or two , and I can do those things also at my friend´s farm without too much trouble, then I will give the first trial a go. And you know what will be my goal there? Not wrecking.

[nancyp]

If you don't know what you don't know it is more difficult, and it would take the effort to learn what things are and how to recognize them perhaps teaming with a good instructor. But still one should train towards Open level work regardless if they trial or not it helps to discern the strenghts and weaknesses of your dog and is very useful on the farm

 

Pam Have you run in a OPEN class? Or just level and what venue have you reached? I appriciate the goal of OPEN , but there are steps not only people and dogs have to take to get there , and running in the lower classes helps people gauge the level they are at. I think the OP was asking the question as to when she will know if she is ready for that level , not to be told by you to JUST TRAIN FOR OPEN.

 

Nancy

[Lana]

Amy, it is great to be prepare, but don't over think this either. If you have a decent handle on your dog( he stops and calls off) just jump in. If it gets to wild( dog chasing sheep or biting sheep) then stop your run.

 

The thing that most people don't like is a handler( at any level as i have seen plenty of open handlers who should stop and don't)not stop when the run has gone to hell.

 

You will get caught up in the excitement, we all do, it is part of the fun of the competition. If you keep in mind the animals should be treated with respect, you will be just fine.

[Maja]

I agree with Donald, and I don't think he means a vague thing like "train for open" or "go west young man!" But rather that there are things worth doing early that pay off much later, like training "here" as a tiny puppy. I read that part in Derek's book carefully, watched his video and I must say I felt almost presumptuous doing it considering that the goal of it was The Shed. But it was a simple, straight forward thing for a novice like me to do with a three-four month old puppy, so I did it.

 

Of course there are short term goals and long term goals. So mu goals for this past season was "not to get DQed", we got three out of four right.

 

Derek also talked about international shed at our clinic. What he said was a real eye opener about how the sheep behave, and how to predict what a sheep will do, and that's useful at any level. As I found shortly afterwards

 

Maja

[juliepoudrier]

Just to clarify my argument, consider if I am working a youngster. Perhaps we're just working on flanks and balance. But as we're doing this, the sheep split and my brain says, "Hey, this is a perfect chance to call the youngster through on a shed" (open-level task). And so I do, and my youngster does its first shed. But also consider that as someone who has run successfully in open and trained my own dogs to do so, I know what I want, what I need, and, most important how to get there.

 

Several things have to happen, though, for me to have this open-level training moment.

 

1. I have to recognize it when it happens, including realizing that my dog is even in the correct position to be called through, and even though I am working (i.e., concentrating) on something else entirely.

 

2. After I recognize it, I have a split second (or a second or two) to decide that it is an appropriate situation in which to call the youngster through and then actually call it through.

 

3. I have to understand the process of shedding well enough to be able to set my youngster up to do so successfully--this means not only coming through without hesitation but also turning onto the correct sheep. (That is, even if my dog knows to come through toward me, I have to understand how my body pressure and movements will affect the dog once it's committed to coming through so that I can also make sure the dog chooses--or more correctly is helped by me--to turn onto the correct sheep.)

 

4. While all this is going on, I also have to be able to recognize if the moment has passed--perhaps the sheep have started to curl around me, or those who were being left by the front group are showing every sign of closing the gap before my dog can get through, and so choose NOT to try it after all.

 

Even if I am standing there telling a new handler what to do, the delay between my telling, the handler grasping what I've said and then trying to comply, and then actually making it happen can be long enough to have caused the teaching moment to pass.

 

You learn to read sheep over time. While new handlers are struggling with the concepts of what's needed to get around a novice course, they are also improving their timing, learning to partner with their dog, and most important, learning to read sheep. Most of them aren't even at a point where they can even think of taking advantage of an "open teaching moment." I have allowed students to take lessons with my open trial dogs on occasion, and even when the dog fully well knows what to do, the novice handler invariably will muck it up, because s/he doesn't have the experience to do otherwise. (No disrespect intended to novice handlers.)

 

I don't really think you can train for open until you truly understand what training for open really entails, and that takes time and, yes, experence (especially for people who don't own their own livestock and so don't have practical tasks on a regular basis that can become teaching moments). You can have open as a goal, but in my mind having a goal and training at that level are two wildly different things. YMMV.

 

J.

[Maja]

Training "for open" and "at the open level" certainly are two very separate things, and certainly "open moments" are open for open handlers only .

 

As usual taking things our of actual learning context is by the contextual nature of these things befuddling. I remember when one of my teachers said "Maja, you have to bla,bla,bla..." and I with my usual denseness said,"but why do I have to blablabla". And he answered, "because when you take Bonnie to work as a set out dog two years from now...". I remembered that I was speechless for a change . But he was right of course.

 

Maja

[Debbie Meier]

Amy, there is a trial coming up at Ashland Nebraska on January 7th, hosted by Brenda Williams, sheep classes begin at 8 am, cattle after 11pm. I believe John Holman will be available to help novices either after the trial or on Sunday and may be booking lessons. The course is typically simple, 100 - 150 foot outrun lift and fetch followed by a wear to a panel and then a pen. They may even allow hands to help the dog as soon as the dog is sent. In the past they have used John's schooling sheep for the novice, easy to get along with and handle. If anything it would be a nice little trial to go to to watch and meet different open handlers from Iowa and Nebraska and to see how their dogs work.

[Debbie Meier]

I don't really think you can train for open until you truly understand what training for open really entails, and that takes time and, yes, experence (especially for people who don't own their own livestock and so don't have practical tasks on a regular basis that can become teaching moments). You can have open as a goal, but in my mind having a goal and training at that level are two wildly different things. YMMV.

 

 

Yes and no, just depends on mindset and where the person is seeking knowledge. First step, IMHO, which is where we made our mistake and quickly changed route, get help from a established USBCHA open handler or one that is working hard to get there if the first is not available or out of reach for you. I stated USBCHA so that it is not confused with Open of the other venues as there are readers and posters within this thread that compete at other venues.

 

In our area, which I am guessing Amy is from, there is no reason to be working border collies and settling for "eaiser" AHBA classes because you can't get around a novice course when hands like Linda Meyer, Bob Johnson, Nyle Sealine and John Holman are readily available. Even Jack Knox and Alasdair are close enough where some people I know of have ventured out to take private lessons though they found that Alasdair gave them homework, which they were unable to fullful so their lessons were put on hold until they can master the next requirement. Please note that Alasdair didn't tell them they couldn't come, it was the knowing that he expected them to do something that they were unwilling to put the effort into kept them from returning.

 

Many times your not going to get anything out of these handlers unless you are willing to work hard and really want it, not many really want it, they say they want it, but are unable or unwilling to make the sacrafices needed to get there.

[Gloria Atwater]

....

 

Even if I am standing there telling a new handler what to do, the delay between my telling, the handler grasping what I've said and then trying to comply, and then actually making it happen can be long enough to have caused the teaching moment to pass.

 

You learn to read sheep over time. While new handlers are struggling with the concepts of what's needed to get around a novice course, they are also improving their timing, learning to partner with their dog, and most important, learning to read sheep. Most of them aren't even at a point where they can even think of taking advantage of an "open teaching moment." I have allowed students to take lessons with my open trial dogs on occasion, and even when the dog fully well knows what to do, the novice handler invariably will muck it up, because s/he doesn't have the experience to do otherwise. (No disrespect intended to novice handlers.)

 

I don't really think you can train for open until you truly understand what training for open really entails, and that takes time and, yes, experence (especially for people who don't own their own livestock and so don't have practical tasks on a regular basis that can become teaching moments). You can have open as a goal, but in my mind having a goal and training at that level are two wildly different things. YMMV.

 

J.

 

 

Beautifully said, Julie.

 

As a pro-novice handler I can say that "training for Open" is absolutely my goal and always has been. When I was running Novice last year, in a chance conversation with Alasdair MacRae, he said the same refrain; "Always train above the level you're at."

 

And I got what he meant. Don't just train to be a good Pro-novice handler, train so one day I can become an Open handler.

 

But I also am a living example of what a steep, steep learning curve it is. Julie, you are spot on in how even a fully-trained dog can't completely cover for a novice handler's lack of experience. Learning to read the sheep, learning to read the dog, learning to anticipate a difficulty or spot the beginnings of a problem before it develops, all are skills I'm still learning to master.

 

In short, I am still learning how to train my dog! It's not enough to go to a good trainer who instructs me and my dog. I have to learn how to take those lessons home and implement them.

 

I'll never forget how Suzy Applegate laughed when I confessed that I had completely misunderstood what she meant, when she told me to "always take the heads" when practicing shedding. It was pretty funny, but the point was ... I didn't get the concept. It wasn't that she didn't try valiantly to explain. It wasn't that she hadn't showed me what she meant. It was just that I wasn't seeing it, yet, and she hadn't stumbled into the magic combination of words that enabled me to grasp what I was seeing and hearing.

 

It takes time to learn how to learn this stuff.

 

It takes time to learn to see all the components, and to learn how to juggle balls, shoot pool and ballroom dance with two separate partners at once - and to do so all at the same time.

 

That's why I'm glad there's Novice. For those of us starting off from Square One, it's a great place to get a start without going in over our - our our dog's - heads.

 

Lana, also a great point about not over-thinking. A good stop and a good recall are the two best tools to begin with. And a willingness for a novice handler to leave the post and run like hell, if necessary, to help a young dog who's having a wreck, are a must.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion, everyone!

 

~ Gloria

[juliepoudrier]

Debbie,

I'm not talking about availing oneself of available trainers; I'm talking about gaining the experience that lets a person see how to be able to train for open. A good mentor will certainly get you there more quickly, but as Gloria notes, if you don't know enough to really understand what the USBCHA open handler is explaining to you (or even why), the only thing you can do is gain experience. (For example, we gnerally do train our dogs to take the back sheep on the head in a shed. I made the mistake of not teaching Pip to take *any* shed, and at his first open run--at Edgeworth no less--we were to take any single. The single happened to pop off the front and when I called Pip through he tried to turn onto the back sheep, despite my body position indicating the front sheep, and I had to command him to the correct sheep. Yes, it cost us a bunch of points. And Flo later said to me that I should have taught him to do more than just take the last ones on the head! I just hadn't thought about it, because generally taking the last sheep on the head is what you do, but not always! )

 

I have little regard for handlers who make novice their end goal (though I do try to understand that different folks have different reasons for doing what they do), but everyone has to start somewhere, and I think most people would agree that the novice classes have been a logical set of stepping stones that enable handlers to progress toward open. What we see with new open handlers today is--from what I hear--much improved over the open handlers going to the post back when open was the only choice.

 

The OP specifically asked if she was ready to try a novice trial. I don't think she should be made to feel that she shouldn't trial in novice or that she's not ready unless her dog is being trained for open *right now.* IMO, if she's training her dog for open and the dog is capable of doing those tasks, then she'd likely be better off running in open, but there's a generally a process that will more easily get a person from point A to point B, and no one should be made to feel bad for taking those steps instead of grabbing for the brass ring from the very start.

 

And while some may believe that novice-novice includes tasks that have no value at home or in open, I'll note that Kent Kuykendall once told a bunch of us novices at a trial at Steve Clendenin's, when asked why bother to wear sheep, that being able to control the sheep between the sheep and the handler was absolutely crucial for setting up a proper shed. So at least some open handlers would say that the novice trial tasks do have relevance....

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Julie, don't forget that there are many who own border collies who are forming their vision of ideal work and expectation by drawing from those that encourage and allow their dogs to work in a manner unbeholding to a border collie.

 

I was just sent a video the other day of a nice friendly border collie out with sheep, the dog worked more like a droving dog, the owner surrounds himself with people that work with all breeds at AKC and the like venues so believes that the work the dog is offering is good and over time if he put his mind to it the dog would progress. Unfortunately the dog does not work like a border collie, it doesn't matter how long this person works at it, until they change who they associate with they will not have a understanding of open work and will always be stuck in sub-novice classes.

[juliepoudrier]

Debbie,

I understand that. There are even open handlers I wouldn't suggest to someone. But this thread wasn't about finding a trainer--it was about when one is ready to trial and how to train for that. At least one of the people you mentioned is active in AKC, no? If the intent is to help the OP with training possibilities that will get her to open on sheep, can you say which of these trainers does that, and in open field trials?

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

If the intent is to help the OP with training possibilities that will get her to open on sheep, can you say which of these trainers does that, and in open field trials?

 

 

All of them, dare you to call them and tell them that they don't

[juliepoudrier]

No need to dare. I'm sure the OP can do her own Googling and see what she finds.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Julie, seems like they are on your blacklist, how about you elaborate, each individually please

[Lana]

I dunno is that a double dog dare?

 

This is getting scary!

[red russel]

wow.

 

things certainly get sidetracked and go south in a hurry.

 

dave

[Pam Wolf]

Nice attitude Nancy P

 

Nancy P writes:

Pam Have you run in a OPEN class? Or just level and what venue have you reached?

 

 

To answer your question I ran my first Open trial back in about 1987 and while it was most likely not USBCHA (not sure if USBCHA was around then or not) it was an open field trial. In fact there were few if any novice classes and while Open did not have a shed usually it was a full course. Later trials had sheds in them. I do not trial much as it is quite an expensive venture when you do not live on the coast where trials are convienent.

 

I do expect my dogs to be able to gather (nut just do an outrun on a small bunch) fetch in a good manner with respect to the stock, drive, cross drive, pen/trailer, shed, single and do other practicle tasks along with working under various conditions. Trialing is not the end all of the working dog.

 

I still say learn what is necessary for Open level work and train for those things and the rest will come along.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

 

My friend Julie writes: "I don't really think you can train for open until you truly understand what training for open really entails, and that takes time and, yes, experence (especially for people who don't own their own livestock and so don't have practical tasks on a regular basis that can become teaching moments). You can have open as a goal, but in my mind having a goal and training at that level are two wildly different things."

 

I remember how confused I was. That small ring was TOOFASTTOOSOONTOOMANY. That said: although sheepdog culture is hundreds of years old, teaching stockwork is relatively new: post WW2 in the UK, late 1970's in North America. Too, unlike traditional stockwork where novices might not understand stockdogs but did understand stock, most contemporary instruction is geared to novices who don't know the dog or the stock.

 

Sheepdogging at the open level is wonderfully difficult and extremely complex. Ex.: "Send to the open side" vs. "Send to the pressure" At a particular open trial skilled handlers will differ about this basic decision.

 

Much as two conductors differ interpreting the same Mozart.

 

But nobody believes Julliard or Tanglewood can't take inexperienced young musicians and teach them how.

 

And they don't teach Mozart by perfecting chopsticks.

 

I think sheepdogging instruction is in its infancy and we excuse our pedagogical failures by noting - though true enough - that the novices are very ignorant and the skills are difficult to master.

 

Let me give a few simple examples:

 

Novices can be told that when working a 10/20+ ewe flock; should the flock break up, call the dog through with your shed command and praise it.

 

Novices can be told that when working sheep, if it happens that the dog is at your side walking onto sheep instead of sending it to the head, encourage it quietly and drop back so the dog is a few feet ahead of you.

 

Novices can be told to watch open handlers while asking other open handlers to critique a good run. This last, the most important suggestion, is generally ignored by novices concentrating on getting their dog to their Novice/novice end of year awards. During the many years I hosted a one day Saturday trial, starting with Novice/novice, very few to none of those novices stayed to watch the open classes.

 

I don't blame the novices. I blame our primitive instruction.

 

Donald McCaig

[Pippin's person]

Interesting thoughts, Donald. I hadn't thought about it this way, but when I put this in the context of my job--which involves working with people at a variety of levels to master an equally arcane, but very different, topic--it makes a great deal of sense. You can't tell a first semester, first year undergraduate to aim toward the PhD and that the skills will come along if you have that as your aim. They simply can't. Even if they have a PhD as an aim; they can't conceptualize what getting one actually entails in terms of abilities, skills, opportunity and sheer drive and persistance. (ETA: it is the job of the teacher to bring them stepwise to that understanding)

 

Of course the same is true of most endeavors that require mastery over time.

 

Sadly, in the context of a world that is always on, with pressures to be and have the best yesterday, it can be difficult to understand and accept how long and difficult these roads can be.

 

At the same time, we all have to jump at some point if we want to move toward our aims. Amy, entering a trial, with all the caveats others have mentioned in mind, will tell you where you are in your training in ways that working on your own or in lessons can't really. (For context about me: I'm a ranch level handler--but not a skilled one by any means)

[Maja]

You can't tell a first semester, first year undergraduate to aim toward the PhD and that the skills will come along if you have that as your aim. They simply can't. Even if they have a PhD as an aim; they can't conceptualize what getting one actually entails in terms of abilities, skills and sheer drive and persistance.

I beg to differ. I think there is an important point Mr. Donald was making about the teacher. If the teacher won't make them aware every time they are acquiring something of the reason why they are doing it, then of course they never will get the picture. I don't know how many times I repeat in a year "when you are doing your master's studies...." or something like that to my undergrads.

 

I see most things as being a step towards the goal, like the example with 'here!' which you teach to a tiny puppy and which is the first step towards the shed. And the little tyke has not seen sheep yet. Or wearing of which Julie spoke - you still do wearing, but not because you are practicing wearing for novice, but because you are preparing for open.

 

Yes, often a novice in anything is befuddled. This is the nature of the beast.

 

Last but not least, there is a powerful motivating factor in this, because it means the teacher thinks you will get there.

 

Maja

[Pippin's person]

I beg to differ. I think there is an important point Mr. Donald was making about the teacher. If the teacher won't make them aware every time they are acquiring something of the reason why they are doing it, then of course they never will get the picture. I don't know how many times I repeat in a year "when you are doing your master's studies...." or something like that to my undergrads.

 

I see most things as being a step towards the goal, like the example with 'here!' which you teach to a tiny puppy and which is the first step towards the shed. And the little tyke has not seen sheep yet. Or wearing of which Julie spoke - you still do wearing, but not because you are practicing wearing for novice, but because you are preparing for open.

 

Yes, often a novice in anything is befuddled. This is the nature of the beast.

 

Last but not least, there is a powerful motivating factor in this, because it means the teacher thinks you will get there.

 

Maja

 

I was agreeing with Donald's point, Maja.

 

The goal is mastery of the craft, right? The degree (or the Open trial field) are the result of having mastered the skills rather than an end unto themselves in my opinion.

[Maja]

You were? Then I completely mis-read it . I'm sorry, I was analyzing EU regulations related to farming. It can make a dumbbell out of anybody.

Maja

[Mark Billadeau]

2 suggestions:

 

Make sure your dog has learned how to lift sheep off a handler and dog.

Be ready to leave the post to help your dog to correctly work the host's livestock.