When to start Trailing Novice

[Amy T]

I've heard many different opinions on when a dog is ready to run trials novice. What are the main things a dog must be able to do prior to trialing?

 

I think my dog is more ready than I am!

[sjones]

Hello Amy,

As a person who has spotted for novice, I will start by telling about some situations I have seen in the past with people who are not ready for novice but decided to run their dogs anyway. One of the biggest problems I see is tight running dogs, or straight up the middle dogs that split the sheep like billard balls. Dog singles off sheep and runs it until it hits a fence or disappears into the trees with said handler trying to recall a dog that decides not to listen. Problems with spotters, dog gets confused with another person on the field, holds sheep to spotter instead of bring them down the field to the handler, or it makes them run tight.

Do your homework before going to a trial. Can your dog do at least a pro-novice length outrun, keep the sheep quiet on the fetch, not run in and grab a sheep or chase them all around? Can your dog do some short drives, or even wear the sheep quietly behind you? This might seem like a little much, but its better to be over prepared than underprepared. If you know your dog can do a longer outrun than what is called for in novice it will take the pressure off you at the trial, because all of us who have trialed know how nerves kick in and that transfers to our dog which could lead to potential problems.

Have a friend hold sheep for you so that your dog feels comfortable taking sheep off of a person.

Another thing is to take the time to watch open handlers run their dogs, you can learn tons, just from watching. I don't know if you have your own sheep or not, but learn how to handle stock yourself. You'll be more help to your dog if you have a better idea of how livestock behave.

I am by no means an expert, I've still got a lot to learn myself, but these are just some things I have observed and experienced over the years.

 

Samantha

[juliepoudrier]

Hello Amy,

As a person who has spotted for novice, I will start by telling about some situations I have seen in the past with people who are not ready for novice but decided to run their dogs anyway. One of the biggest problems I see is tight running dogs, or straight up the middle dogs that split the sheep like billard balls. Dog singles off sheep and runs it until it hits a fence or disappears into the trees with said handler trying to recall a dog that decides not to listen. Samantha

This is probably the biggest dog problem I see--either that or the dog splitting the sheep or worse, pushing them back toward the set out (I also do a lot of sheep setting at trials). While all this mess is going on the handler is standing rooted at the post, yelling to no avail. I think that you're okay to trial if your dog meets the basic criteria that Samantha listed, but I would also encourage you to leave the post sooner rather than later when things go south. Your dog is learning every time you send it down the field for sheep. If you stand at the post and let the dog muck things up time and time again, guess what? The dog is *learning* to muck things up. Better to cut your run short and correct the dog so that it understand that it won't get away with bad behavior on the trial field.

 

And while I'm at it, if your dog has a lot of eye and goes up the middle and then stops in front of the sheep, DON'T tell it to walk up. I think the person who does so is just trying to get the dog to move, but when your dog is in that position and you ask it to walk up, you're setting up a situation where the dog is likely to blow into the sheep and send them in the opposite direction from you. I don't know how many bad wrecks I've seen caused by the handler doing this. Better to leave the post, walk up the field and then step to the side and encourage your dog around. In some cases this means your run is over, but at a lot of trials, if you get things under control, the judge/course director will allow you to finish out your time, even if you are technically retired (but best to ask about this at the handler's meeting--don't assume it will be allowed).

 

I don't mean to sound negative, but remember that almost all young dogs work way better on their home fields than they do at a trial, so best to have your dog performing above the basic requirements for N/N at home so that even if it backslides at the trial, things won't go too badly.

 

Also, new places, new situations, your stress, etc., will amp up and stress your dog. Be prepared for that and do what you can to mitigate it.

 

Oh, the other thing I would recommend is to take your dog to as many different places as possible to work sheep--the more you drag your dog around and have it work in strange locations and on different stock, the less likely it is to "lose its head" when you step out on a trial field.

 

J.

[KelliePup]

Kayzie and I are no where near trialing yet, but I love reading the advice on starting/getting ready to trial.

 

Just to show how new I am at this, and not to take away from the question at hand, but what differences are there between the Nursery and Novice classes? Is it just an age thing? Does anyone know of any good runs done online that aren't Open?

 

Sorry to be a pest, but I've been trying to figure out the course set ups and I'd like to have some visual references rather than just reading it.

 

This thread brings other questions to mind, but I think they might better be addressed in either another thread (or even a quick search to see if they've already been covered).

 

 

On a parallel note, over-training and training at different fields is an excellent suggestion. I've over-trained my dogs for every milestone we've done (the CGC, Rally, Freestyle and currently working on Obedience and Agility in the herding "off-season" here), and it has definitely paid off when we've stepped into the ring. I can imagine it would be the same on the field.

[juliepoudrier]

KelliePup,

I'm not sure what the class designations are in MI, but the nursery course is the equivalent (here in the east) of the open ranch course. Open ranch is generally the same as open, but without the shed. Early in the season, the nursery course may have a slightly shorter outrun than open ranch, in deference to the age of the nursery dogs. The nursery dogs who generally do the best at the natioanals are those who are running the full open course.

 

The beginning novice classes (novice-novice and pro-novice) are much smaller courses than nursery. And while nursery requires the full drive, the lower courses do not.

 

And of course age does make a difference: nursery dogs can run the years in which they are 30 months or younger by the end of the calendar year (that's why a July birthday is ideal--the nursery dog can run the year it turns three, giving it the advantage of maturity; these are the dogs commonly referred to as "two year nursery dogs"). For example, my Ranger, who turned 2 on July 31, was eligible to run nursery last year and again this year. If I qualified him this year, he'd turn 3 a couple of months before the finals.

 

I don't know of any videos on the web for the lower classes, but there must be some. Remember that the lower classes are not governed by USBCHA, so there are some regional differences in how they're set up/conducted.

 

J.

[NorthfieldNick]

On the west coast (at least in the northwest), we don't have an open ranch class, just nov-nov, pro-nov, open, and nursery. Nursery is generally the same course as pro-nov, which is a slightly shortened open course with no shed. Nov-nov here is a short outrun (150 yrds or so), fetch, pen. There's often a short assisted drive or wear, and at one trial with tough range sheep, you had to settle them at the post before going to the pen.

[Amy T]

Thank you for the feedback. My boy has a beautiful natural outrun and fetch, he is completely calm and I can trust him when I send him for the sheep. He doesn't split them and does a nice job wearing the sheep behind me. We've had a lot of self control issues in tight spots. He doesn’t like to stop, although this is much improved in the past months. The other issue we are currently working through is turning off the sheep. The "That'll Do" isn't calm and he will often try and jump towards the sheep. We spend a lot of time teaching him, that because we are walking away the turn isn't necessarily over. He will take the opportunity to split the sheep at this point, then nicely gather and bring them back to me. Obviously, if you can't turn your dog off the sheep, you can't complete. Any suggestions on this?

 

I agree that the more places we train the better. I find this to be very hard because when you go someplace new, every trainer has a different training style. This can be good and bad for many different reasons.

[Debbie Meier]

Lots of off balance flanks and stops along with shedding will help a bunch. Lots of novices go to the trial field before having their dogs comfortable with flanking off balance, the dog is only comfortable on the opposite side of the sheep from the handler, possibly why your dog blows through and then regains control. Some also feel that shedding is not trained until much later in the dogs career, but we have found the earlier the better. Both give the dog the tools necessary to stay cool and calm under high pressure situations building confidence and self control.

[Pam Wolf]

Just train for Open and forget about novice

[KelliePup]

Thank you so much! That does help clear up a few things I was wondering about

[red russel]

Training for Open and forgetting about Novice is much easier to do once you are an Open handler. When you are just starting out you don't know what you don't know. Some things just don't translate through words... have to be experienced.

 

Most important question to ask when deciding to trial a dog... does it treat the livestock with respect? If so, have at it. We have all had train wrecks. Nothing you can do that others haven't already done. Most will be very supportive and nobody will think twice unless or until livestock is mistreated.

 

dave

[Pam Wolf]

Dave at one time there were only Open handlers. That still should be the goal IMO

[juliepoudrier]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone today who would say that the handlers' skills in open when there was only open were better than they are now. The reason is largely because people have lower levels in which to train instead of just stepping out on the open trial field, ready or not.

 

I agree that open should be the goal (vs. novice as the goal), but starting in novice isn't such a bad thing. And overfacing dog and handler gains no one anything.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

One's goal should always be to reach - and do well in - Open. It is most certainly mine.

 

However, if there were no Novice to get us on the field that first time, I might still be training my 3 -1/2 year old dog at home, having never once gone to the post. The reason being that Nick is my first dog with Open prospects, but I'm definitely still learning how to train him to that level.

 

Once a handler has reached Open and gained a good understanding of it, then of course Novice is off the menu (by rule as well as reason) and Pro-Novice is just a place to proof a young dog at the post a time or two, especially if their birthday is wrong for Nursery. But for those of us just starting out, it's a launching point.

 

So, I personally am glad that Novice exists. It's a place for people to begin asking questions about all the myriad subtleties of sheepdog trialing. It's a place to take a young dog to the post and not get either of you in over your heads. And most of all, it's a safe place to start, because one can go out there and make all the amateur mistakes, without the Big Hats standing right there to watch us crash and burn.

 

It was scary enough for me to realize I was sharing the P/N field with Patrick Shannahan at Lacamas, last August!

 

Novice is for the first time. First grade for aspiring sheepdog trialers. I'm glad it's there, so I didn't spend quite so long struggling along my lonely way, waiting until I know enough to run in Open.

 

~ Gloria

[KelliePup]

Okay, new question.

 

I definitely agree with over training for trials, but there's something that's bothering me and might be misconstrued by other people just entering this world.

 

It has been said throughout this thread that Open is the end goal. I'm assuming that means the end goal with trialing? I can imagine that there would be some situations on a ranch that would be different than those on a trial field. Am I right in this?

 

So, theoretically, would not the end goal of training a stock dog be to work on the ranch? While trialing, more or less, is a fun way to show off your dog's (and yours) skills?

[red russel]

In theory they are one in the same. A solid Open dog should have the skills necessary to do ranch and farm work. Training and skills are the same... gather, drive, shed, hold... Some dogs that do great work on the ranch, doing the same chores everyday with familiar sheep on familiars fields wouldn't do well in trial situations... different sheep, fields, draws, pressures, etc. And just the opposite, I know we have all seen a few dogs that can get through an Open run that we would never take home to get the chores done.

 

This is a quote from Pearse Ward from a different thread on a different board. It was taken from a much longer post with significant additional information but the punch line is relevant to this discussion. I think it is spot on. (Pearse, my apologies for using your words and wisdom in vain.)

 

"Truth be told, almost any dog from decent working lines can be taught to do farm work. The top 20% are where you are looking for your trial dogs in. The only problem these days is that everyone wants the 20%."

 

dave

[sjones]

Amy, you've mentioned that your dog has some self control issues and sometimes splits the sheep. I don't know where you are located but going to clinics are very beneficial for you and your dog to work on problems like this. Since you are aware of these problems they would probably really show themselves at a trial, plus its not fair to the sheep to be harassed, so until you get some help on those issues I wouldn't advise entering a trial yet. As Julie had noted you don't want your dog learning bad habits on the trial field.

I don't have a problem with people starting off in novice, thats where I started, but my goal was to move up in the classes which I did. I found that going to clinics and club sponsered fun days were some of the best ways to help both my dogs and me. I have been to many clinics over the years; Jack, Kathy, and Patrick are among my favorites to go to as I like their training methods and I learn something new each time and realize that I still have so much to learn.

 

Samantha

[juliepoudrier]

KelliePup,

I agree with what Red Russell said. My main work dogs are my open-trained dogs. Sometimes the work we do at home is "dirtier" (i.e., I allow grips when needed, don't worry about the straightest possible line from A to B, etc.), but all the skills that are tested on the open trial field are ones I use at home. I have dogs I wouldn't necessarily trial who are quite useful at home--but they are all trained to the open level because I need those skills at home too.

 

As for taking your dog places, you ought to be able to find some folks who hold fun days and the like so you can get access to sheep without having to take lessons from all sorts of different people. For example, my neighbor Robin had a fun day last weekend. People were allowed to work their dogs on whatever they wanted to work on. If they wanted Robin's help/advice she would have given it, but she didn't require people to take lessons. The only requirement was that any person/dog she didn't know had to start in a smaller area so she could assess their skill level and whether it was safe to set them loose on her sheep in the bigger field.

 

I remember taking my Twist at a year old and buying time on the finals practice field in TN just to get her some experience in a new location and on different sheep. It does help if you have sheep-owning friends who will allow you to work your dog, but if not, you can probably find arrangements that don't require you to take a lesson to gain access to sheep.

 

J.

[NorthfieldNick]

Most important question to ask when deciding to trial a dog... does it treat the livestock with respect? If so, have at it. We have all had train wrecks. Nothing you can do that others haven't already done. Most will be very supportive and nobody will think twice unless or until livestock is mistreated.

 

 

 

"Truth be told, almost any dog from decent working lines can be taught to do farm work. The top 20% are where you are looking for your trial dogs in. The only problem these days is that everyone wants the 20%."

 

Both of these bear repeating. I've had my share of embarrassing retires on the trial field. I've flanked my dog the wrong way. I once ran the sheep nearly over the judge (first time in novice!). EVERYONE on the field has had similar experiences. Especially when you're in the lower classes, everyone is really supportive and helpful. I've gotten some good advice from other handlers, not necessarily about dog training, but about trialling. I've never been in another competition where just about everyone is friendly, supportive, and understanding. Don't let your own nerves stop you from getting out there when your dog is ready. Think more about competing against yourself than against other people.

 

As Dave says, just don't harass or injure stock! That's the one surefire way to get yourself a bad reputation. If your dog is losing its cool out there, or is in over its head, leave

the post! A RT to help your dog or protect the stock is far better than struggling for a score and getting asked to leave by the judge.

 

That 20% thing is another good reason to have lower classes. Some dogs just don't have the makings of an Open dog. If someone new to trialling couldn't ever compete, there's less motivation to seek out a better dog next time. The novice classes are where you learn to be at the post. And they're cheaper. I don't want to throw $50 at a run when I've never been on a trial field.

[JaderBug]

Amy, you should think about getting yours and Chico's feet wet at an AHBA trial first- you can remain much closer to Chico and set yourselves up for success, help prevent mistakes. There are usually a couple of AHBA trials around here in the spring, there's one over by Omaha I will probably be going to...

[Amy T]

Hi Rachel & All,

 

I'd like to be ready by mid-summer. I don't think we won't be ready by spring though... It depends on the few bumps we need to overcome before then. I plan to start in Novice, then work our way up. As a new handler I feel this would help me most. I'm not in a hurry to trial, but it's great to have a goal and something to work for.

 

Thanks for all the feedback. I find all the comments very interesting and I think it's great to see the different opinions and suggestions.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

A couple unrelated points: 1. Training for open: Almost everybody trains for the class they're running in. If novice/novice (for instance) one concentrates on downing the dog and outrunning the sheep to the pen. This skillset is useless in other classes (and farmwork). After one has mastered the skills for N/N, one goes onto P/N ("Drive? What's a drive?") and finally to Open ("Shed, what's that?")

 

While the ability to shed is unnecessary in Novice trials, like driving it is very useful during ordinary farmwork. Don't ignore training opportunities to drive or shed in favor of learning to outrun docile sheep to a pen. I was once at a subnovice clinic with Derek Scrimageour where he was teaching the International Shed. When I asked him why he replied, "You don't train for where you are, you train for where you want to get."

 

Good advice that. One little novice trick which will pay off later is how you call your puppy. Sure, call your young dogs off the stock with "That'l do here" (and please don't worry if he doesn't want to come off his stock or must be brought around to your side of the stock to come off.) But when you are calling your pup/dog to your feet for a pat. use your shed command. Mine is "In here!" Good dog, in here . . . Then, when you start shedding, you'll have a command readymade.

 

Point 2: One difference between trial dogs and hill/ranch dogs is that the former learn a "pearshaped outrun", the latter to "find sheep" - not always the same task.

 

Donald McCaig

[Pam Wolf]

Just what I said Donald

[juliepoudrier]

Telling someone who barely knows how to get their dog out to sheep, let alone do anything else, to train for open isn't exactly all that helpful though. I remember when I first started out; it was pretty overwhelming keeping up with everything. If all the help I had been given was "train for open," I doubt I would have gotten far in my understanding of things. I made it to open just fine, though I can assure you that I didn't start out expecting my youngster to drive and open course or do a successful international shed.

 

I think perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. Donald makes good points about taking the training opportunities that present themselves, but I guarantee you that many novices don't even recognize those opportunities, let alone know what to do with them (no disparagement meant to novices).

 

Success on a novice course certainly shouldn't be anyone's ultimate end goal, but getting around a novice course is certainly a suitable goal on a training continuum.

 

J.

[Pam Wolf]

If you don't know what you don't know it is more difficult, and it would take the effort to learn what things are and how to recognize them perhaps teaming with a good instructor. But still one should train towards Open level work regardless if they trial or not it helps to discern the strenghts and weaknesses of your dog and is very useful on the farm