When do you start longer outruns?

[ejano]

Sunday afternoon -- usually warm and sunny for NE PA in November. Our paddock is pretty much picked clean and I've been feeding hay... but there's all this green grass in the near field so we took a deep breath, a bucket of grain and let the sheep out.

 

Whoeee! Thanksgiving feast!

 

They just scattered, fanning out from the gate at a fast clip, snatching at grass like day trippers at a $5.00 buffet. DH was fast on their heels - the wrong way to catch any kind of livestock - he'd forgotten the grain! He wasn't exactly listening to me as I was the one who supposedly got us in this predicament, though I clearly remember suggesting that perhaps we should let only two sheep out, one of which was Lamb Chops on a halter and line, and leave the rest in the paddock as a draw. It was DH who swung the gate wide - but perhaps "This is all your fault!" meant without those $#%^ sheep, he'd be home watching the football game. What fun would that be? In his defense, DH did a pretty good outrun and managed to slow them down at the furthest point from the barn they could get and still be in the field.

 

I had both Brodie and Robin with me and quickly debated...Robin is more dependable in his commands but Brodie is less likely to spook them IF he doesn't bowl straight into them knocking sheep pins every which way for the hell of it... better not chance it as he was fairly twitching with excitement, having seen DH give chase.

 

So, I left Robin to guard a flank to keep them from meandering away in another direction and kept Brodie on a line and walked him far around the sheep and brought him up behind them. Once we were in position, I dropped the line and kept him with me, giving walk up and lie down commands alternately as we headed back to the barn, DH leading the way, somewhat out of breath from from his outrun and subsequent struggle to turn them without a dog. If anyone should ever doubt the usefulness of the Border Collie even on the smallest operation with the tamest of sheep, I wish I had video of how quickly the little woolly beasts fell in line with utmost cooperation, though Snowdrop did kick up her heels a bit in annoyance, which was pretty impressive given her size -- have you ever seen an elephant fly?

 

They meandered into the paddock; DH slammed the gate shut and I quickly busied myself settling the dogs lest DH wish to further discuss the matter of blame for this misadventure - once he got his wind back.

 

My 87 year old mother asked me, tongue in cheek, when we started discussing getting sheep and having them graze down the orchard, "So the dogs will bring the sheep back, right?" Something she and I had done hundreds of times, when I was small -- Ring and Shep, fetching the dairy cows across the same pastures. It seemed easier when I was five, I thought - sitting on my bench underneath the pear tree just outside of the paddock, conveniently out of sight of DH, with Brodie and Robin by my side, both eager to try the whole operation again.

 

 

This little misadventure did give me some (misplaced?)reason to hope. We let the sheep out to graze. We got them back with the help of the dogs. But I clearly have a ways to go in training. Our paddock is about 400 feet long and 200 feet wide, so the boys have limited opportunity to go wide around the sheep -- something they need to learn how to do. Brodie actually stays out a goodly distance, once he settles in to work -- it's those first few exciting minutes that are challenging. Robin does a good outrun, but gets a little tight on the turns - perhaps with more room, he'd stay back further as well.

 

Winter is settling in, but with spring soon on its heels. I want to be able to send the sheep down into the orchard as soon the winter breaks to give the paddock grass time to recover. How do I improve their outruns and train them to stay further off the sheep, given the limited amount of space I have to work with at present?

 

 

Liz

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Trainers,

 

Today.

 

What's the dog going to do if it goes wrong? Circle the sheep as it brings them? Break them up and chase a ewe? Will he/she bring it down? If: "No" what are you afraid of? How many lessons did Ring and Shep get? How many clinics?

 

In my experience, many novices are afraid of their dogs; i.e. that the dogs will do SOMETHING irreparably wicked. What young dogs can and will do is panic sheep so they are harder to bring in than they might have been had you left the youngster at home. SO WHAT? Bring the sheep in, fix the broken gate, start over.

 

A few sheepdogs will take down and worry a sheep. These dogs must be under firm control before they're allowed into a field where they can do damage. Most will circle and break up and regather and dither and eventually bring the sheep to you. It may seem like uncontrolled chaos but are the sheep coming nearer you?

 

I am not advising sending an inexperienced dog to gather range ewes 800 yards away. But I don't think sending a half-trained dog in the three acre field after a dozen docile sheep can do very much harm and probably will do some good - to the dog and the handler. The sooner you can use your young dog on routine chores (except lambing and post-lambing which require a savvier dog and handler), the sooner that dog will begin the most enjoyable, richest part of his learning experience. Real work delights sheepdogs, drill is drill.

 

No, those first hundred yard outruns won't be pretty and you'll be well served with a good strong "Down", but they will soon get prettier. Take a lesson from Ring and Shep and give your dog a chance to be wrong. How else can it come right?

 

Donald McCaig

[terrecar]

A few sheepdogs will take down and worry a sheep. These dogs must be under firm control before they're allowed into a field where they can do damage.

Donald McCaig

 

I'm as clueless about sheep herding as I am fascinated, so pardon this question...But, once a dog "takes down and worries" a sheep, is it actually possible to redirect that impulse and end up with a useful dog? I'm working under the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that prey drive morphed into prey aggression would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage reliably.

[Mark Billadeau]

Sometimes it helps having someone else push you and your dogs to take the next step.

Once you have the chance to see what can go wrong and how easy it can be to pick-up the pieces, the next time on your own is not so scary.

 

 

[terrecar]

Sorry duplicate post. A dumb question asked once is enough!

[Smokjbc]

I'm as clueless about sheep herding as I am fascinated, so pardon this question...But, once a dog "takes down and worries" a sheep, is it actually possible to redirect that impulse and end up with a useful dog? I'm working under the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that prey drive morphed into prey aggression would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage reliably.

 

 

I think so - we have a dog that started that way when he was young. He is a very nice dog that has done OK in Pronovice, could do better if he got more work. Extremely useful dog although I will say he's not 100% trustworthy and needs to be kept under your thumb more than our other dogs. I'll admit (he's Mike's dog) that we had several arguments over keeping him from bloodying my sheep when he was a youngster but he did come around to be a (mostly) good dog with good feel for his sheep.

 

I agree though that sometimes you just have to push yourself and your dogs to the next step. It will get ugly sometimes (as I discover many times when I step on the trial field with dogs that never get to see a real pasture at home) but most of the time, the worst that can happen is that you will have to run up there and pull things back together. Start with your dog down and you as close as the sheep will let you get. Get a good stop at the other side and don't worry so much about speed so long as the dog is covering at first.

 

My dogs have to start doing their outruns in a patch of BLM land with no fences. We take a solid dog as backup and good sheep that won't overreact. Very rarely, the sheep might get away but so long as we can get the dog back, the worst that can happen is that the sheep will make it 1/3 mile down the road and land in front of their own gate, no harm done.

[Smalahundur]

Comforting topic as I am somewhat in the same boat as Liz.

Gláma´s 100 meter (yard) outruns aren´t pretty, but they work, she will cover her sheep, bring waywards back in the fold, and they will end up at my feet.

[ejano]

Dear Trainers,

 

Today.

 

What's the dog going to do if it goes wrong? ...

 

Donald McCaig

 

This reminds me of the advice the person from whom we got the dogs from..."Trust your dogs...what could happen?"

 

I would have liked the first test to be a bit more controlled...i.e. actually walk the sheep out onto the field with the dog, settle them in, then bring them back. If I were in control from the beginning, Brodie's tendency to head the sheep, which is why he barrels into them, would be checked from the start. They are past the point of lunging into the sheep and have a reasonable down in familiar situations.

 

After that, you're right. I'll never forget the first time I sent Robin after the sheep, which were about half way back to the barn and on the south side of the pasture. He belted straight past them, a straight arrow for the barn and I shouted "Where are you going!" He was just starting his turn to lift the sheep when I shouted and he stopped, looked back at me with a withering look that clearly said, "You idiot." At our last lesson of the season, I was standing at the edge of the pasture, watching the trainer working him. On his first attempt, he collected the sheep and blazed past her, delivering them to my feet. (I left the field.)

 

Brodie really wears the sheep well, nice and quiet without disturbing them in the slightest. Daffodil always immediately heads my way, one of the little Shetlands trailing behind her, the moment she sees the dogs so she is my safety net. Once she starts in, the others wonder what they are missing.

 

It's time to test them all in new situations or they won't grow and neither will I.

 

(Ring came to the farm trained -- Sheppie came from the farm over the hill and learned by osmosis.)

[bc soul sista]

Will either of them at least lie down so you can get between them and the sheep?? You being in that crucial spot, where your pressure will help push them out and at least not run strait for the sheep will help...

 

I wouldn't be worried about to little space, some of the most fabulous work I've seen as young dogs starts out in a smaller space..you can do ALOT!! Get there flanks right, get them right at the top...work on a steady..learning there flanks, stopping, changing directions. I always make sure my dogs are right in a small space and listening before moving to a bigger area..sets both them and you up for success which will build both your confidence!!

 

I wouldn't set up a situation right away where they will learn they don't have to listen. You're just gonna make a whole lot of work for yourself. Mentaly and PHYSICALY!! By having to run up the field or chase them down for not listening...

[juliepoudrier]

I'm as clueless about sheep herding as I am fascinated, so pardon this question...But, once a dog "takes down and worries" a sheep, is it actually possible to redirect that impulse and end up with a useful dog? I'm working under the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that prey drive morphed into prey aggression would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage reliably.

My Pip as a youngster was a bit, shall we say, hotheaded. When a running dog grabs a running sheep, it's not so hard for the dog to pull the sheep down. Presumably the alert handler is already running out to get things under control. It's the rare youngster that is actually trying to kill a sheep. Usually they are trying to stop one from running off and grab in frustration. It doesn't mean the dog is a killer and unsuited to stock work.

 

Pip is now an open level trial dog (he's 5 and has been running in open for two years), he's my go-to dog for chores here at home, and he's the dog that I use when hired to set sheep at a trial, where he has to keep his cool when dealing with what can sometimes be very difficult sheep for hours on end over several days. Is he still a bit hot headed? Yes. But I know it and can predict the situations where he's likely to want to "punish" a sheep, and those situations are pretty rare.

 

But the main point is that generally a young dog pulling down a sheep isn't doing so with an intent to kill but rather because it's trying to control the situation. That doesn't mean you can ignore the behavior, but often just a voice correction (of doom) is enough to stop the dog and allow everyone to regroup. This presupposes several things though:

1. That the sheep are not the type to repeatedly try to beat the dog, run it over, etc.

2. That the dog is not bent on drawing blood** (I have seen some youngsters like that, and they are best left to more experienced trainers)

3. That the handler is savvy enough to react quickly when it happens and also has trained the dog well enough to respond to a correction (or even a lie down) NOW

 

That said, many novice handlers will panic when they see a chase starting and tell the dog to lie down when in fact the dog is doing its best to cover the escaping sheep and if allowed to do so, would actually manage to turn the sheep. It's a fine line between recognizing that the dog is trying to do the right thing and allowing it to do so and recognizing that the dog has reached a point where all it wants to do is grab that sheep and stop it. Stopping the dog who is trying to do the right thing can just add to the frustration/stress level the dog is experiencing.

 

It sounds like Liz's dogs wouldn't be the sort to deliberately try to take down sheep and if she were to let part of them out and leave part back in the pen as she had planned to do, she probably won't have any issues using either of her dogs for gathering those that are out.

 

The biggest issue, as she noted, as that when you let sheep out that have been dry lotted or mainly on hay, though don't always just clump together and graze, but instead go "Whee!" and hurry all about grabbing the choicest bits of stuff as they go. It can be a bit disconcerting when you're expecting them to just put their heads down and eat, but usually once they get some grass in their bellies, they'll be more inclined (though not always) to settle a bit better.

 

**Usually such dogs are reacting out of fear rather than aggression and the trainer needs to recognize that and take it into account when working with them. More pressure on a dog biting out of fear is likely to just make the dog's behavior worse. You've got to get inside that dog's head and help it to let go of the fear before you can expect to make progress with the bloodletting behavior.

 

Liz,

Maybe the thing to park your dog(s) at some distance from the gate in the direction the sheep will head when the gate is opened to prevent the sheep from dashing too far once you let them out. With the dog(s) guarding that side, you'll prevent the panic of the sheep taking off for their $5 buffet. The dog(s) can hold that side till you get the gate shut and can get back to the dog(s). Then you might be able to set up some outruns once the sheep have settled a bit and gone to grazing seriously.

 

J.

[ejano]

My Pip as a youngster was a bit, shall we say, hotheaded. When a running dog grabs a running sheep, it's not so hard for the dog to pull the sheep down. Presumably the alert handler is already running out to get things under control. It's the rare youngster that is actually trying to kill a sheep. Usually they are trying to stop one from running off and grab in frustration. It doesn't mean the dog is a killer and unsuited to stock work.

 

Pip is now an open level trial dog (he's 5 and has been running in open for two years), he's my go-to dog for chores here at home, and he's the dog that I use when hired to set sheep at a trial, where he has to keep his cool when dealing with what can sometimes be very difficult sheep for hours on end over several days. Is he still a bit hot headed? Yes. But I know it and can predict the situations where he's likely to want to "punish" a sheep, and those situations are pretty rare.

 

But the main point is that generally a young dog pulling down a sheep isn't doing so with an intent to kill but rather because it's trying to control the situation. That doesn't mean you can ignore the behavior, but often just a voice correction (of doom) is enough to stop the dog and allow everyone to regroup. This presupposes several things though:

1. That the sheep are not the type to repeatedly try to beat the dog, run it over, etc.

2. That the dog is not bent on drawing blood** (I have seen some youngsters like that, and they are best left to more experienced trainers)

3. That the handler is savvy enough to react quickly when it happens and also has trained the dog well enough to respond to a correction (or even a lie down) NOW

 

That said, many novice handlers will panic when they see a chase starting and tell the dog to lie down when in fact the dog is doing its best to cover the escaping sheep and if allowed to do so, would actually manage to turn the sheep. It's a fine line between recognizing that the dog is trying to do the right thing and allowing it to do so and recognizing that the dog has reached a point where all it wants to do is grab that sheep and stop it. Stopping the dog who is trying to do the right thing can just add to the frustration/stress level the dog is experiencing.

 

It sounds like Liz's dogs wouldn't be the sort to deliberately try to take down sheep and if she were to let part of them out and leave part back in the pen as she had planned to do, she probably won't have any issues using either of her dogs for gathering those that are out.

 

The biggest issue, as she noted, as that when you let sheep out that have been dry lotted or mainly on hay, though don't always just clump together and graze, but instead go "Whee!" and hurry all about grabbing the choicest bits of stuff as they go. It can be a bit disconcerting when you're expecting them to just put their heads down and eat, but usually once they get some grass in their bellies, they'll be more inclined (though not always) to settle a bit better.

 

**Usually such dogs are reacting out of fear rather than aggression and the trainer needs to recognize that and take it into account when working with them. More pressure on a dog biting out of fear is likely to just make the dog's behavior worse. You've got to get inside that dog's head and help it to let go of the fear before you can expect to make progress with the bloodletting behavior.

 

Liz,

Maybe the thing to park your dog(s) at some distance from the gate in the direction the sheep will head when the gate is opened to prevent the sheep from dashing too far once you let them out. With the dog(s) guarding that side, you'll prevent the panic of the sheep taking off for their $5 buffet. The dog(s) can hold that side till you get the gate shut and can get back to the dog(s). Then you might be able to set up some outruns once the sheep have settled a bit and gone to grazing seriously.

 

J.

 

Sounds like a good plan -- and I really do think just two or three at first to keep the excitement level down for both animals and humans would work much better! I also have another gate on the back side of the paddock that will dump them out onto the slope leading down into the orchard. It's a slightly more controlled environment there. We'll try again later this week, if DH is up to it.... He's a good sport and I'd not have any of this - dogs or sheep - without him.

[ejano]

Will either of them at least lie down so you can get between them and the sheep?? You being in that crucial spot, where your pressure will help push them out and at least not run strait for the sheep will help...

 

I wouldn't be worried about to little space, some of the most fabulous work I've seen as young dogs starts out in a smaller space..you can do ALOT!! Get there flanks right, get them right at the top...work on a steady..learning there flanks, stopping, changing directions. I always make sure my dogs are right in a small space and listening before moving to a bigger area..sets both them and you up for success which will build both your confidence!!

 

I wouldn't set up a situation right away where they will learn they don't have to listen. You're just gonna make a whole lot of work for yourself. Mentaly and PHYSICALY!! By having to run up the field or chase them down for not listening...

 

 

Yes, both lie down well - at home. At lessons, it's another thing, because we go infrequently and the excitement level is way high. At home, we've practiced a good deal of wearing both away from and toward the barn then making turns around the pasture. Starting a wee bit of driving and gradually increasing the distance for their outruns as well as the distance I am from them, giving commands. We've made a lot of progress in the past two months. Almost a baby step . We'll keep working in there as well.

[terrecar]

But the main point is that generally a young dog pulling down a sheep isn't doing so with an intent to kill but rather because it's trying to control the situation.

 

Your explanation, and particularly the above sentence, was helpful. It makes a lot more sense to me now.

[Liz P]

Those who were wiser and more experienced kept drilling into me that you teach a dog to flank and feel their sheep correctly at hand (close up) and the distance work will come naturally. For a long time I was impatient and tried to extend outruns before my dogs were ready. When I finally got it, I had a dog go from 25 to 50 yard practice outruns to a 700 yard outrun to gather a field without practicing distances in between. The important thing was that the foundation work was done right.

[Diana A]

Dear Trainers,

 

Today.

 

What's the dog going to do if it goes wrong? Circle the sheep as it brings them? Break them up and chase a ewe? Will he/she bring it down? If: "No" what are you afraid of? How many lessons did Ring and Shep get? How many clinics?

 

In my experience, many novices are afraid of their dogs; i.e. that the dogs will do SOMETHING irreparably wicked.

 

 

 

I had a well respected trainer/trialer tell me something similar. He made a very good point. If the dog has what it takes as a stockdog, it may make a mess, but it won't like it any better than I do. That dog will be thinking 'gee, that didn't work so well' and may well try something different the next time, or, if you step in and help a bit to steer him towards the correct solution, he's good enough that he'll latch onto it and think 'this is SO much better than what I did last time'. And then the dog has learned something based on experience, not based on simply 'do it because I said so'. I was one of those newbies very afraid to let my dog make a mistake because she would be practicing bad habits . . .I have seen since then that experience can often be the best teacher, including the bad experiences, as long as you don't let the dog get in over his head and then leave him floundering.

[ejano]

I had a well respected trainer/trialer tell me something similar. He made a very good point. If the dog has what it takes as a stockdog, it may make a mess, but it won't like it any better than I do. That dog will be thinking 'gee, that didn't work so well' and may well try something different the next time, or, if you step in and help a bit to steer him towards the correct solution, he's good enough that he'll latch onto it and think 'this is SO much better than what I did last time'. And then the dog has learned something based on experience, not based on simply 'do it because I said so'. I was one of those newbies very afraid to let my dog make a mistake because she would be practicing bad habits . . .I have seen since then that experience can often be the best teacher, including the bad experiences, as long as you don't let the dog get in over his head and then leave him floundering.

 

 

I am going to carry this with me when we go to the farm today. Robin really needs to have things make sense to him. I haven't quite dared let the sheep out again (DH is rather tired this week!) but we have been working inside the paddock, wearing the sheep in new directions, reinforcing lie down. Today I want to set Robin up for short distance outruns. He's good at picking up the sheep and bringing them out of the poplars at a slow pace, but that doesn't require an outrun as we're walking straight from the gate behind them.

 

I really do wonder if I'm not trusting him enough as his instincts for the sheep are so sharp but with him, there's a very thin line between trust and taking over. He's still bullying the sheep, rushing at them just to see them pick up their heels when we are wearing -- not a good thing. I wonder if it's a combination of boredom with wearing the sheep, immaturity, and my own slow pace.

 

Robin's last formal lesson focused on "take time" (because of his pushy habit) so we continue to work on that aspect. Yesterday we did a "lie down" seemingly about every 30 seconds, but it seemed to finally sink in that we don't behave like that (we'll see today!) He's responsive to my commands but is intensely concerned with pressure and nearly always seeks a position lying down between the sheep and the barn, even though Daffodil would never leave me and where she goes, the others go. He is very good at guarding the gate ways - sending them through one gate, leaving me "in charge" then hustling to the north gateway to prevent them from heading back to the barn, rejoining me on the other side. I never had the chance to tell him to do this -- he's reacting to the pressure. Does it matter that I haven't directed him to do this?

 

He has finally starting to become comfortable enough to lie down at right angles to the barn with the sheep facing south, away from the gates. So, my dilemma is, do I let him react to the pressure, trusting his judgment or insist he do it "my way"? He doesn't seem to react to balance work in the same way Brodie does. He's good at keeping the sheep with me but tends to orbit at lightening speed to do so when I relinquish control for even 10 seconds. I wonder if he's developing a heading problem or simply again reacting to the pressure. Maybe he just likes to orbit in a flat out run. He will put on the brakes and lie down, but not always exactly where I want him.

 

I'm searching for the words to describe the difference, but it seems that Robin isn't so interested in my contributions as he is in the game of keeping the sheep with me. Does that make sense? Maybe I'm being unfair to him because he is doing his job - he just does it so fast that I can't quite keep track of what he's doing and that's when he gets away and starts to orbit. Yesterday I positioned the sheep against the fence with me on the outside and when he started to kick in the afterburners and orbit around them he ran flat into the fence (not physically but as a barrier to prevent him from circling. I was able to catch him and turn him back. We had some small success so hoping this was the right thing to do, I'll try this again today. I also took the sheep out into the middle of the paddock and just kept turning them so that he had to stop and think about which way he was going but most of the time he was still lapping them at supersonic speed and I had to stop him with a lie down. We'll try this again too. If he's most comfortable with them pointing away from the barn, I'll try to keep that angle. He must have been thinking hard as when we left the field, he was really tired, though we hadn't worked any longer than we usually do.

 

Brodie has seemingly grown a foot since his real world experience last weekend. I'm amazed at his progress this fall from a hard-eyed pup who insisted on always heading the sheep to a much more relaxed dog who is now quite comfortable wearing the sheep. His balance work has really improved now that he's gotten over this heading tendency. I can see that he's reading me and reacts to my position but he moves at a slower pace. He also works further out from the sheep and isn't as interested in excitement as he is concerned with them escaping. I want to start outruns again with him... but hesitate to put him back in when he had such a perfect day on Friday. Bad weather will be coming soon and I want him to end the season on a high note.

 

Too many questions, but input is valued! Oh, I wish fall would last forever...snow, snow, stay away!

 

Liz